Challenge to all rejectors of the Divinity of Al-Quraan : Moderated Debates
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Enquirer, i reacted civilezed as i'm a grown human being with no care of how or what you believe. And have you read all the books of the last 1400 years? How do you know nobody read it like them? The dictionaries they all use, are almost as old as the Quran. It has to do with approach enquirer, 200 years after the revelation, they used certain rules how to read the Quran, so its meaning got stuck/fixed, the Quran was made mahjoor. Throughout history there were a lot of geniuses how approached the Quran just as we do now. But because only now it is easy to print and distribute views around the world, these views are known. For more then a thousand years, only a certain approach was tolerated, so only those views survived the times. It is the same with the Christian writings that were hidden in caves, because only one type of thinking was allowed on paper. Abu Hanifa died for his struggle for following the Quran alone, but we have not a single book or manuscript written by him, you think that is a coincidence? No of course not. Only the winners write down history.
And as for only a few can translate, this is not true, as anyone can buy the old dictionaries and research on the classic arabic and how interpretations can be distorted. Anybody with good motivation can do all the research themselves. You only need an open mind, torough research, understanding of how old understandings were formed by who and why and be ready to amazed.
Peace
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Peace arnoldyasin. If its easy to understand quran through good motivation,research,dictionaries etc...then why the monumental disagremenets between interpretations,and why the huge amounts of misunderstandings regarding the book?
Peace all. -
Peace
I'd like to make an association between a math class and clarity of the reading.
The teacher gives a problem to the class. None will know it's meaning until the end of the class when they have experience in the system to be taught there. People will come up with different answers initially, but is the problem really unclear?
Joe
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Because people are still shaking of 1000 years of lies and misunderstandings...and not all are ready to do that or acknowledge that. They claim Quran alone, but their subconciousness is completly filled by misguided information. And the Quran take lifetimes to be studied...........
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Salaam enquirer
I know that i have gone one further than you,and actually question/reject large chunks of the quran
I think it will be sensible for you to give example(s) of the bits you reject one by one so a logical discussion can take place.
As for your opinion that there different interpertation of the Quran over the last 1400 yrs. That might actually what was intended. There are issues which can be interperted only in a certain way but others do allow flexibility to accomodate human evolution. Simple example is the word Riba. It has always been interperted as meaning interest. However my understanding of the word from those arabic speaking is that it means unfair or unjust advantage. Now as a society, person etc you can decide whether interest in the modern world equates with Riba. However if you go back into not too distant past then interest many poor had to pay on borrowed goods or money was so crippling thay it virtually left them in slavery for all their life. In this situation you would interpert Riba as meaning interest would you not? I hope you have understood my point.
Dear Elke.
You have first decide on what you consider to be zina. let us assume it means adultery you then as a individual decide if it is a good or bad thing (sorry for such oversimplification). I dont know many who consider it to be a good thing. If you accept that its effect on society are detrimental to the well being of that society then you have accepted the Quranic principles and all then we are quibbling about is the extent of the punishment, hardly a point that the Quran in this is not valid.
On the otherhand if you consider adultery to be no big deal and dont consider it to have any relevant efect on any given society and most agree with you then you can have a society where liberal sex(for the sake of not using more offensive language ) is practiced you will soon see the results.
regards
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peace arnoldayasin and nabi. I respect your answer...However,if the quran takes 'lifetimes' to understand,then how can it be useful in this life? (or what does a person do in the meantime,while studying quran,to guide himself?)
Nabi; Are you saying that we will understand the quran fully when we implement a quranic system,or when we die,or when we verify it in a real-life experience,or something else?...
Peace all. -
enquirer, your 'study life through experience' also takes a lifetime to study, why bother then?
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Because people are still shaking of 1000 years of lies and misunderstandings...and not all are ready to do that or acknowledge that. They claim Quran alone, but their subconciousness is completly filled by misguided information. And the Quran take lifetimes to be studied...........
why don't you prove to me these 1000 years of lies?
I need solid proofs bro not a couple of corrupted hadith
salam
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Peace still-learning and arnoldyasin. Still-learning; Your analysis of 'riba' is excellent,and one that i can agree with...
On the question of which bits i 'reject',this will be clarified in the moderated debate,and i will discuss some of these with you from tommorow,time permitting....
Peace all. ps;I think you have misunderstood elke....I will try to answer the 'zina' question tommorow,as well... Pps; Arnoldayasin;because the 'lifetime study' allows me to make judgements that are practically relevant to situations that actually occur,...just by using rational thinking and moral experience...Many of the necessary general morals are learnt very quickly,easily,and with only a little pondering....As opposed to years of research on the quran... -
This is the same with the Quran, God will enhance our understanding when needed...And AB, there are to many books on hadith that show the difference of religious issues and history. Only the history can be taken, and still they may not be used for understanding the Quran as it is based on classic arabic language, not on arabic history.
But there is enough info out there to study...Here read this then
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/mh/mh.htmPeace
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Peace arnoldyasin. I agree,you possibly can get good results from the quran....However,the quran/book is only as good as the reader...
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This is the same with the Quran, God will enhance our understanding when needed...And AB, there are to many books on hadith that show the difference of religious issues and history. Only the history can be taken, and still they may not be used for understanding the Quran as it is based on classic arabic language, not on arabic history.
But there is enough info out there to study...Here read this then
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/mh/mh.htmPeace
Bro
please don't url me some lengthy repetitive argument that are possibly copied from the Dajjal RK master degree in deception
I need you to explain to me using the Quran and the hadith and your own words that the last 1000 years in the history of Islam were clear cut lies, thank you
cheers
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Peace,
That is a post the size of three books...........so sorry AB but find out for yourself. I have no time or intrest in posting when you don't even take the effort to check out a good and honest book about hadith. You are not gonna accept my views either.
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Peace,
That is a post the size of three books...........so sorry AB but find out for yourself. I have no time or intrest in posting when you don't even take the effort to check out a good and honest book about hadith. You are not gonna accept my views either.
don't get me wrong bro
i read all these sorts of things more than once, i'm talking to you here and trying to understand your claim that the last 1000 years in Islam were clear cut lies, if you can't prove it then donlt claim as such bro
thanks
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I can prove it, but i don't have the time or urge to write it all down...
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I can prove it, but i don't have the time or urge to write it all down...
how about a moderated debate between me and you?,
do you think I have time?
well I' gettin ready to go overseas in 5 days, i was actualy going to do it with you when I come back 14 days after
salam
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I can prove it, but i don't have the time or urge to write it all down...
how about a moderated debate between me and you?,
do you think I have time?
well I' gettin ready to go overseas in 5 days, i was actualy going to do it with you when I come back 14 days after
salam
Peace,
You were already planning what with me over 14 days, you already planned something before this discussion? And i'm not interrested in a debate, as i even take less time on this forum. I'm busy with my studies. Plus i'm not going to quote history of hadith here. That is to much and i have no urge to debate anything, as i don't have anything to prove. The Quran is my guide and nothing next to it, i take as authority.
You go have fun with enquirer
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Peace
Are you saying that we will understand the quran fully when we implement a quranic system
How is a quranic system built up prior to an understanding of the quran?
or when we die
Wouldn't it be too late by then?
when we verify it in a real-life experience
Depends, people can verify a bad interpretation, and it is said in the reading that there are those who think evil to be good .
or something else?
There aught to be, but I'm not much familiar with that something.
Joe
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Off the topic...... Are you going back to Egypt? Its nice place. Stayed there three weeks. Will go back again whenever Allah permits.
All the topics on the forum are off the topics.
Yeh man, I'm going to egypt for a week then dubbai for three days, my father is very sick and i need to see him quick inshallalh
egypt id a great cuntry bro, our main problem is government in place for the last 60 years or so, these long years of unjust leading were enough to manipulate many people in there, i'm actually planning to relocate back there as an investor with my brother in law and that is another reason of my quick trip, i want to explore the call centers industry in egypt
Cheers