Challenge to all rejectors of the Divinity of Al-Quraan : Moderated Debates
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Because people are still shaking of 1000 years of lies and misunderstandings...and not all are ready to do that or acknowledge that. They claim Quran alone, but their subconciousness is completly filled by misguided information. And the Quran take lifetimes to be studied...........
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Salaam enquirer
I know that i have gone one further than you,and actually question/reject large chunks of the quran
I think it will be sensible for you to give example(s) of the bits you reject one by one so a logical discussion can take place.
As for your opinion that there different interpertation of the Quran over the last 1400 yrs. That might actually what was intended. There are issues which can be interperted only in a certain way but others do allow flexibility to accomodate human evolution. Simple example is the word Riba. It has always been interperted as meaning interest. However my understanding of the word from those arabic speaking is that it means unfair or unjust advantage. Now as a society, person etc you can decide whether interest in the modern world equates with Riba. However if you go back into not too distant past then interest many poor had to pay on borrowed goods or money was so crippling thay it virtually left them in slavery for all their life. In this situation you would interpert Riba as meaning interest would you not? I hope you have understood my point.
Dear Elke.
You have first decide on what you consider to be zina. let us assume it means adultery you then as a individual decide if it is a good or bad thing (sorry for such oversimplification). I dont know many who consider it to be a good thing. If you accept that its effect on society are detrimental to the well being of that society then you have accepted the Quranic principles and all then we are quibbling about is the extent of the punishment, hardly a point that the Quran in this is not valid.
On the otherhand if you consider adultery to be no big deal and dont consider it to have any relevant efect on any given society and most agree with you then you can have a society where liberal sex(for the sake of not using more offensive language ) is practiced you will soon see the results.
regards
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peace arnoldayasin and nabi. I respect your answer...However,if the quran takes 'lifetimes' to understand,then how can it be useful in this life? (or what does a person do in the meantime,while studying quran,to guide himself?)
Nabi; Are you saying that we will understand the quran fully when we implement a quranic system,or when we die,or when we verify it in a real-life experience,or something else?...
Peace all. -
enquirer, your 'study life through experience' also takes a lifetime to study, why bother then?
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Because people are still shaking of 1000 years of lies and misunderstandings...and not all are ready to do that or acknowledge that. They claim Quran alone, but their subconciousness is completly filled by misguided information. And the Quran take lifetimes to be studied...........
why don't you prove to me these 1000 years of lies?
I need solid proofs bro not a couple of corrupted hadith
salam
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Peace still-learning and arnoldyasin. Still-learning; Your analysis of 'riba' is excellent,and one that i can agree with...
On the question of which bits i 'reject',this will be clarified in the moderated debate,and i will discuss some of these with you from tommorow,time permitting....
Peace all. ps;I think you have misunderstood elke....I will try to answer the 'zina' question tommorow,as well... Pps; Arnoldayasin;because the 'lifetime study' allows me to make judgements that are practically relevant to situations that actually occur,...just by using rational thinking and moral experience...Many of the necessary general morals are learnt very quickly,easily,and with only a little pondering....As opposed to years of research on the quran... -
This is the same with the Quran, God will enhance our understanding when needed...And AB, there are to many books on hadith that show the difference of religious issues and history. Only the history can be taken, and still they may not be used for understanding the Quran as it is based on classic arabic language, not on arabic history.
But there is enough info out there to study...Here read this then
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/mh/mh.htmPeace
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Peace arnoldyasin. I agree,you possibly can get good results from the quran....However,the quran/book is only as good as the reader...
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This is the same with the Quran, God will enhance our understanding when needed...And AB, there are to many books on hadith that show the difference of religious issues and history. Only the history can be taken, and still they may not be used for understanding the Quran as it is based on classic arabic language, not on arabic history.
But there is enough info out there to study...Here read this then
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/mh/mh.htmPeace
Bro
please don't url me some lengthy repetitive argument that are possibly copied from the Dajjal RK master degree in deception
I need you to explain to me using the Quran and the hadith and your own words that the last 1000 years in the history of Islam were clear cut lies, thank you
cheers
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Peace,
That is a post the size of three books...........so sorry AB but find out for yourself. I have no time or intrest in posting when you don't even take the effort to check out a good and honest book about hadith. You are not gonna accept my views either.
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Peace,
That is a post the size of three books...........so sorry AB but find out for yourself. I have no time or intrest in posting when you don't even take the effort to check out a good and honest book about hadith. You are not gonna accept my views either.
don't get me wrong bro
i read all these sorts of things more than once, i'm talking to you here and trying to understand your claim that the last 1000 years in Islam were clear cut lies, if you can't prove it then donlt claim as such bro
thanks
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I can prove it, but i don't have the time or urge to write it all down...
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I can prove it, but i don't have the time or urge to write it all down...
how about a moderated debate between me and you?,
do you think I have time?
well I' gettin ready to go overseas in 5 days, i was actualy going to do it with you when I come back 14 days after
salam
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I can prove it, but i don't have the time or urge to write it all down...
how about a moderated debate between me and you?,
do you think I have time?
well I' gettin ready to go overseas in 5 days, i was actualy going to do it with you when I come back 14 days after
salam
Peace,
You were already planning what with me over 14 days, you already planned something before this discussion? And i'm not interrested in a debate, as i even take less time on this forum. I'm busy with my studies. Plus i'm not going to quote history of hadith here. That is to much and i have no urge to debate anything, as i don't have anything to prove. The Quran is my guide and nothing next to it, i take as authority.
You go have fun with enquirer
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Peace
Are you saying that we will understand the quran fully when we implement a quranic system
How is a quranic system built up prior to an understanding of the quran?
or when we die
Wouldn't it be too late by then?
when we verify it in a real-life experience
Depends, people can verify a bad interpretation, and it is said in the reading that there are those who think evil to be good .
or something else?
There aught to be, but I'm not much familiar with that something.
Joe
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Off the topic...... Are you going back to Egypt? Its nice place. Stayed there three weeks. Will go back again whenever Allah permits.
All the topics on the forum are off the topics.
Yeh man, I'm going to egypt for a week then dubbai for three days, my father is very sick and i need to see him quick inshallalh
egypt id a great cuntry bro, our main problem is government in place for the last 60 years or so, these long years of unjust leading were enough to manipulate many people in there, i'm actually planning to relocate back there as an investor with my brother in law and that is another reason of my quick trip, i want to explore the call centers industry in egypt
Cheers
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Peace,
Peace
You were already planning what with me over 14 days,
it is not a plan as such, it was gping to be a mere suggestion actually based on your acceptance
you already planned something before this discussion?
not really, i was only interested to know more about your claim that the last 1000 years in Islam are nothing but lies
And i'm not interrested in a debate,
fine bro, you have the freewill to consider either a debate or a mere discussion to pass on some enlighting to your fellow muslims
as i even take less time on this forum.
i hope not because yous ound like a very decent member
I'm busy with my studies.
May Allah help you with it bro, I'm glad at the age of 41 i don't need to study anything else but the Quran
Plus i'm not going to quote history of hadith here.
I agree but can you please tell me what do you think of the percentage of the total of possibly corrupt hadiths from all the known hadith?, just a wild guess man, you donlt need to be accurate with this one
That is to much and i have no urge to debate anything,
consider it a discussion but only do it when you have time, no obligations
as i don't have anything to prove.
I thought you said earlier that you can prove it
The Quran is my guide and nothing next to it, i take as authority.
fine man, but the Quran also told us that the prophet should teach us things that is not known to us, like Salat and Hajj for example, are you still struggling to know how these two compulsory practices are performed?
You go have fun with enquirer
enq is not a guy to have fun with, he is one that muslims should take very seriously and consequently be they must damn serious with him
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Peace,
AB, not all hadith are lies, certainly not, but i take them only as history. I don't believe Muhammed's opinion is binding on the Quran, plus i'm really carefull with the people who wrote them down, so with most i don't trust them to be Muhammed's opinions. As for the salaat, i get a whole ritual from the Quran, plus salaat has multiple meanings through out the Quran. Same for Hajj, but i approach that differently then you i believe. I don't believe God has used hearsay reports as way of spreading a part of the message.
And i believe most verses in the Quran are not binded to history, and where they do, they rectify the known history by telling us what really happened. And by thus the traditional history becomes useless as God tells us it is false.
But let's keep this debate in mind as it is interresting for later. But now i don't have time in such a debate where much research and quoting must be done.
Peace my brother...
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Peace stillearning
Dear Elke.
You have first decide on what you consider to be zina. let us assume it means adultery you then as a individual decide if it is a good or bad thing (sorry for such oversimplification). I dont know many who consider it to be a good thing. If you accept that its effect on society are detrimental to the well being of that society then you have accepted the Quranic principles and all then we are quibbling about is the extent of the punishment, hardly a point that the Quran in this is not valid.
On the otherhand if you consider adultery to be no big deal and dont consider it to have any relevant efect on any given society and most agree with you then you can have a society where liberal sex(for the sake of not using more offensive language ) is practiced you will soon see the results.
regards
i do not think that you really read my posts. if not you would know that i do not consider zina a good thing - that i defend the morals (which are logic) in quran, and that i never said that quran is not valid or not inspired by god. My point was always - are the punishments applied in a society more than 1000 years ago to be applied today - or should we should try to convince people of the sense of quranic rules using means adapted to our time and place.
lk