Challenge to all rejectors of the Divinity of Al-Quraan : Moderated Debates
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Peace,
AB, not all hadith are lies, certainly not, but i take them only as history. I don't believe Muhammed's opinion is binding on the Quran, plus i'm really carefull with the people who wrote them down, so with most i don't trust them to be Muhammed's opinions. As for the salaat, i get a whole ritual from the Quran, plus salaat has multiple meanings through out the Quran. Same for Hajj, but i approach that differently then you i believe. I don't believe God has used hearsay reports as way of spreading a part of the message.
And i believe most verses in the Quran are not binded to history, and where they do, they rectify the known history by telling us what really happened. And by thus the traditional history becomes useless as God tells us it is false.
But let's keep this debate in mind as it is interresting for later. But now i don't have time in such a debate where much research and quoting must be done.
Peace my brother...
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Peace stillearning
Dear Elke.
You have first decide on what you consider to be zina. let us assume it means adultery you then as a individual decide if it is a good or bad thing (sorry for such oversimplification). I dont know many who consider it to be a good thing. If you accept that its effect on society are detrimental to the well being of that society then you have accepted the Quranic principles and all then we are quibbling about is the extent of the punishment, hardly a point that the Quran in this is not valid.
On the otherhand if you consider adultery to be no big deal and dont consider it to have any relevant efect on any given society and most agree with you then you can have a society where liberal sex(for the sake of not using more offensive language ) is practiced you will soon see the results.
regards
i do not think that you really read my posts. if not you would know that i do not consider zina a good thing - that i defend the morals (which are logic) in quran, and that i never said that quran is not valid or not inspired by god. My point was always - are the punishments applied in a society more than 1000 years ago to be applied today - or should we should try to convince people of the sense of quranic rules using means adapted to our time and place.
lk
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Elke
i do not think that you really read my posts. if not you would know that i do not consider zina a good thing - that i defend the morals (which are logic) in quran, and that i never said that quran is not valid or not inspired by god. My point was always - are the punishments applied in a society more than 1000 years ago to be applied today - or should we should try to convince people of the sense of quranic rules using means adapted to our time and place.And the question which anyone who has the good fortune of discussing with Elke should be
- Why should it be adapted to our time and space?
- Does our time and space ensure peace for all mankind
- Therefore, why is 'our time and space' worshipped (in quranic terms, worship includes the total acceptance of legislation)
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salaam elke
do not think that you really read my posts. if not you would know that i do not consider zina a good thing - that i defend the morals (which are logic) in quran, and that i never said that quran is not valid or not inspired by god. My point was always - are the punishments applied in a society more than 1000 years ago to be applied today - or should we should try to convince people of the sense of quranic rules using means adapted to our time and place.
I did not think you considered zina a good thing and i hope I did not convey this impression-if I did then please accept my apologies. My point was simly to illustrate that the Quran considers adultry a sin i.e something which is only likly to bring harm to the society. Therefore if we accept something as being harmful to a given society then surely society must consider sanctions against individual(s) who commit a harmful act. Having established the fact that zina is harmful then we are simply left with the question of sanction. Unfortunately that will vary between individuals which can boil down to such simplistic reason as to how the act effects the individual. Therefore just because some may consider lashes to be inappropriate does not mean that the punishment is outdated. Let us consider a hypothetical scenario. A marreid man commits adultery with a woman as result his marriage breaks down his family are torn apart, children are left without a father-at least in their daily lives. To uninterested bystander this may be no big deal but for the innocent wife her whole world has collapsed and she may consider the 100 lashes very lenient.
Punishment is very relative and just because some may consider as lashes inappropriate does not make Quran unsuitable for modern day(whenever that is).regards
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i do not think that you really read my posts. if not you would know that i do not consider zina a good thing - that i defend the morals (which are logic) in quran, and that i never said that quran is not valid or not inspired by god. My point was always - are the punishments applied in a society more than 1000 years ago to be applied today - or should we should try to convince people of the sense of quranic rules using means adapted to our time and place.
peace Elke, all
I don't think we HAVE to change those laws with time (unless you can provide me with a good example).
My question is that if you are accomplishing the same thing, is it really important as to how you do it?
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Stilllearningunishment is very relative and just because some may consider as lashes inappropriate does not make Quran unsuitable for modern day(whenever that is).
It's very refreshing to see forum participants actually questioning this 'modern day' concept. I don't know why contemporary human beings can get so arrogant about living in this era when while human beings have increased efficiency of work, they have also lost touch with authentic living. They look at 'old books' as anachronistic failing to see that wisdom is timeless.
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Like i said in another thread
As for the whipping, i'm still researching, but adultry/illicit sex is the main reason for aids, abondend baby's, sexual diseases, broken relationships, fatherless children. Compared to this, it makes the 'flogging' nothing. A quarter of the population is DYING because of zinaa, but people only look at the 'flogging', this is biased and ignorant.
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Peace all. Does anybody seriously think whippings for adultery (only with 4 witnesses,though.) will practically lower the rate of adultery,broken marriages,aids,sexual diseases,fatherless children,etc...
Dont you think education about being responsible,contraception,and latex would achieve far,far better results...
Peace all; ps;how much adultery is commited with 4 witnesses? -
I also believe we haven't fully understood it all. But yes, we need ALSO to teach people, of course. But that is the prevention side of it. With your argument, when can as well stop putting people in jail, or giving people fines, as that don't really work either...
You are confussing prevention and punishment...
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Peace all. Does anybody seriously think whippings for adultery (only with 4 witnesses,though.) will practically lower the rate of adultery,broken marriages,aids,sexual diseases,fatherless children,etc...
Dont you think education about being responsible,contraception,and latex would achieve far,far better results...Wow, you gotta love the tone, 'does anyone SERIOUSLY think'. One should ask this person, have you seen this punishment implemented at all in your 25 years of study? If not, that's mighty arrogant of you to ask such a question like 'do you seriously think'. For people reading Enquirer's post, this is THE REAL enquirer showing himself.
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Peace all. Jail obviously works in some situations....You cant commit crimes as easily if youre in jail..(im not referring to adultery,but crimes in general.)
In saudi and iran they have these types of whippings for certain offenses,and even stonings....Do you think these punishments work in these countries? Im sure many have witnessed these punishments in those countries...Are these countries models of justice...? -
Elenadon't start, mquran
This person needs a constant watch because he's not here for discussion. He's run out of arguments so now he goes with a CONDESCENDING 'do you seriously think..'
is THAT ok with you Elena? To question the believers of a certain belief like that without actually offering counter-arguments?
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Salaam
It's very refreshing to see forum participants actually questioning this 'modern day' concept. I don't know why contemporary human beings can get so arrogant about living in this era when while human beings have increased efficiency of work, they have also lost touch with authentic living. They look at 'old books' as anachronistic failing to see that wisdom is timeless.
Agree.
So we educate people not to carry out acts which are detremental to the society and yet some still do. What do we do these indivduals (a) Ignore them
(b) Reward them
(c) Sanction punishment against them.Please tick the appropriate response.
regards
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Phoenixwe've already seen enough of the REAL enquirer,
can you please address what he said in his post now?
we should stop worrying about people's tones and what they believe and focus on what's being said and move the discussion forward.That's more than a fair point, Phoenix. But tell me, how do you dress something as substance-free as 'do you seriously think' ? Look at his post again
Peace all. Does anybody seriously think whippings for adultery (only with 4 witnesses,though.) will practically lower the rate of adultery,broken marriages,aids,sexual diseases,fatherless children,etc...
Dont you think education about being responsible,contraception,and latex would achieve far,far better results...Do I think, do you think, does he think, does she think..that's all it's really about. No, I don't think, I'll answer. Then he'll go 'well, I think'.
This is about FACTS. Al-quraan commands this. IF you think the command is wrong, do the following
- Define right and wrong (here itself, Enquirer'll do a runner)
- Tell us your authentication of right and wrong
Phoenix, I've tried to get this guy to factually discuss stuff, but he's not here for that. He's here for 'does he think' ramblings. Here;s another example
Your assertions about some of my comments being 'opinions' is not useful....every person on this forum who interprets the quran is doing it from their 'opinions'...unless they are speaking on behalf of god,or infallible...
In other words, its not possible to talk about al-quraan's teachings at all, for the simple reason that once you do, it's wholly your opinion about it. However, he doesn't mind airing his own opinions about a matter
i feel would not be best served by 100 physical lashes,as i feel this is potentially inhumane and dangerous..
I hope Wakas asks him to define 'inhumane' and 'dangerous'. That'll be a laugh coming from a person whose only objectivity comes from himself.
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Salaam
As all now appear to accept that Zina is unacceptable therefore can one now conclude that this aspect of the debate can now be concluded that Quran's to this day is applicable as it ever has been.
As for those who feel the punishment is unjust. perhaps now they can concentrate on this issue.
Please just consider the point of 4 witnesses though and see if you can work out why the Quranic dictat is even more applicable today than it ever was.
regards -
All of you if just pay attention to some of the previous topics discussed previously on the forum are coming back with different names and approaches.
Here is one.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4333.msg60395#msghttp//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4333.msg60395#msg6039560395
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Peace still-learning. SOME parts of the quran are still applicable,i dont think anyone denies this...
please tell me how 4 witnesses can be of benefit in todays world...?
What if i catch some-one red-handedly cheating on his wife,yet i only have three witnesses....Does he get off free? -
Peace still-learning. SOME parts of the quran are still applicable,i dont think anyone denies this...
please tell me how 4 witnesses can be of benefit in todays world...?
What if i catch some-one red-handedly cheating on his wife,yet i only have three witnesses....Does he get off free?Enquirer, did you know that believers aren't allowed to spy on anyone? What is meant by a witness is a person who sees the act inadvertently. This punishment is about lewdness in public. Anyone in a quranic polity can be together behind closed doors and no authority has the right to breach those doors without their permission.