What is a kafir?
-
Some articles
http//www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1676_0_25_0_C44
http//www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1710_0_25_0_C44see also
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0 -
Peace jm. The links you have given,give some food for thought... bravo But i think there is still further to go than this...
The consequences and values dont have to be explicitly from the quran or scriptures,in my opinion....Does it matter where one gets ones values from,as long as one practically follows 'universal' moral laws,and takes due attention regarding possible consequences? -
Peace Layth. If i understand you correctly (i apologise if ive misunderstood you.) ,you claim that the majority of mankind are kafirs and/or mushriks....and so doomed to hell,if they die in this state?...
Did you come to this conclusion from 'real-life verifications',or from YOUR reading of the quran?....
Do you realise that if you are wrong or mistaken in your assertion,then you have wrongfully insulted the majority of mankind...?
Maybe they are rejecting peoples 'opinions' about god/islam...And not god/islam itself... -
Peace,
Peace Layth. If i understand you correctly (i apologise if ive misunderstood you.) ,you claim that the majority of mankind are kafirs and/or mushriks....
I do not claim anything, I only repeat that which God has told us
And most of the people, even if you are diligent, will not believe.(12103)
And most of them will not believe in God except while setting-up partners.(12106)and so doomed to hell,if they die in this state?...
Yes, according to 2161-162 and 572 those who die in this state are indeed
doomed.Do you realise that if you are wrong or mistaken in your assertion,then you have wrongfully insulted the majority of mankind...?
Do you really think I care about
hurtning/insulting peoplewhen it comes down to following the truth or not?Compromising the truth for the sake of making friends in the world is a sad state to be in...
-
Peace layth.
Have you ever made a mistake in interpretation? Can you make a mistake in interpretation?
Do you speak on behalf of god?
Seems like you have abdicated your personal responsibility for what you say,to the excuse; 'Thats what allah says so'...
Sorry for being a bit harsh and direct,but i expected better from you....
How would you attract someone who was not muslim to believe in this religion of 'peace'?...
The national front has similiar views to you...and then justifies their beliefs by saying we will not compromise OUR 'truth',even if it hurts many in the process... o
I can see why people reject these kind of views/prejudices....Doesnt mean they are rejecting ISLAM. (PEACE.) -
Salaamun alaikum,
The word 'kafir' has gained a racist interpretation in terms of popular usage. People not from the 'islamic civilisation' are deemed as the 'kuffar' but people who are from the 'islamic civilisation' including murderers, rapists and their ilk cannot be called 'kuffar'. This is all thanks to the Hambalite defense of the 'grave sinner'. Ahmad ibn Hambal declared that it's possible to be 'muslim' while knowingly and continually acting in a kuffar manner. This is of course, contrary to the teachings of al-quraan.
The root KFR appears in nearly 700 occurences, so you can imagine how immense the study is. One verse however which always stands out to me is this
O ye who believe! Spend out of (the bounties) We have provided for you, before the Day comes when no bargaining (Will avail), nor friendship nor intercession. Al-kafireen, they are az-zalimeen. (2/254)
The context here is very telling indeed. If you do not spend in the way of Allah (i.e by establishing justice and ad-deen), you are in fact an al-kaafir and an explanation of this is that you're an az-zaalim, or an oppressior.
Kafir should always be seen in universal behavioural terms, never in racial, cultural or sectarian terms.
-
Peace,
Have you ever made a mistake in interpretation? Can you make a mistake in interpretation?
Do you speak on behalf of god?God speaks for Himself through His Scripture, that is why it is nessesary to quote the source of the information.
Seems like you have abdicated your personal responsibility for what you say,to the excuse; \'Thats what allah says so\'...
Sorry for being a bit harsh and direct,but i expected better from you....What do you mean? You expected me to lie about God or to delibertly conceal what He has said so as not to upset some readers? Obvioulsy you do not know me well enough yet.
And God took the covenant of those who were given the ScriptureYou will make it clear to the people and not conceal it.` But they threw it behind their backs and purchased with it a cheap price. Miserable indeed is what they have purchased. (3187)How would you attract someone who was not muslim to believe in this religion of \'peace\'?...
I would speak to people with the truth...The invitation to Islam is not based on deceptions and gimmicks, but on facts and verification...At the end of the day, only God is the One who guides those who will.
The national front has similiar views to you...and then justifies their beliefs by saying we will not compromise OUR \'truth\',even if it hurts many in the process...
Do they have a Scripture from God which they are upholding?
SayDo you see the partners whom you have called on besides God? Show me what they have created on Earth. Or do they possess any partnership in the heavens? Or have We given them a scripture wherein they are taking knowledge from it? Indeed, what the transgressors promise one another is no more than arrogance.` (3540)I can see why people reject these kind of views/prejudices....Doesnt mean they are rejecting ISLAM. (PEACE.)
We all have two options when it comes to believing/upholding God`s words
Options # 1
The utterance of the believers when they are invited to God and His messenger to judge in their affairs is to SayWe hear and obey.These are the winners.(2451)Option # 2
From amongst the Jews there are those who take the words out of context, and they SayWe hear and disobey, and listen but let not any listen, and shepherd us,in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the system! And had they saidWe hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us,it would have been better for them and more upright; but God has cursed them for their disbelief, they do not believe except very little.(446) -
Peace layth. I will ask you once again...Is it possible for YOU to make a mistake in interpretation...? If you dont answer,i will conclude you dont have an answer,or that you are infallible...
Anybody can quote verses which are not even relevant to the discussions...Im sure the wahabbis do that to you,to justify the sunnah...
To be honest your concept of truth is just your OPINION... -
I will ask you once again...Is it possible for YOU to make a mistake in interpretation...? If you dont answer,i will conclude you dont have an answer,or that you are infallible...
Anybody can quote verses which are not even relevant to the discussions...Im sure the wahabbis do that to you,to justify the sunnah...
To be honest your concept of truth is just your OPINION...
If you think Layth has made a mistake in his interpretation, let's see it? Otherwise it's just a cop-out from your side, this personal opinion stuff. -
Some articles
http//www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1676_0_25_0_C44
http//www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1710_0_25_0_C44see also
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0Thanks for these links JM. Peace.
-
Peace layth. I will ask you once again...Is it possible for YOU to make a mistake in interpretation...? If you dont answer,i will conclude you dont have an answer,or that you are infallible...
Anybody can quote verses which are not even relevant to the discussions...Im sure the wahabbis do that to you,to justify the sunnah...
To be honest your concept of truth is just your OPINION...How are the verses he quoted irrelevant? Just curious.
Just assume Layth didn't supply any interpretation/commentary of the verses he pasted. Take the verses for what they are worth. How then do you interpret them?
To be sure, there isn't a shortage of Qur'anic verses that invite varying interpretations. These verses, however, don't seem to fall in that category. At least not at first blush. So do us a favor and inform us as to other possible interpretations.
Peace.
-
Peace cavemandoctor. Because the verses used,agree with his conclusions only when being a muslim is defined as a theoretical mix of beliefs.... And these beliefs are not agreed upon or even logical/applicable in the real world...
-
Peace jm. The links you have given,give some food for thought... bravo But i think there is still further to go than this...
The consequences and values dont have to be explicitly from the quran or scriptures,in my opinion....Does it matter where one gets ones values from,as long as one practically follows 'universal' moral laws,and takes due attention regarding possible consequences?IHMO, we should try to stick to the topic "What is a kafir ?"...
Arguments about "should we follow the quran or universal moral laws" and so on are not relevant in this thread.
You may wish to open a new one...Peace
-
Peace jm. I felt that this was a relevant point,because we should know what it is that a person rejects (ie the literal quran,or the underlying universal morality in the quran.) before others make an assessment of his 'islamicness' or his 'character'...I may open a new thread in future...
-
Peace All,
Well, it started out OK, but this thread has spun way out of control. No offense to anybody here, but, my intention was for a cooperative effort to understand what the term "kafir" means, according to the Qur'an, so that the members and casual readers can gain some understanding.
So, please, if you have nothing more to add to the meat of this discussion, then save it for another topic, no matter how compelled you are to reply. And if anyone else has something to add to understanding what a "kafir" is, then please disregard the current state of this thread and let's get is back on track.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Layth,
You stated
Peace Tay,I somewhat agree with you...A
Kafiris someone who rejects.But, that does not nessesarily mean that he/she has heard the message as he/she may be rejecting the concept of God or nature itself.
I agree, and my apologies for not specifying, but when I say "divine guidance", I'm including the extra-quranic signs. So, we both agree that a kafir is one who has "seen" or "heard" the guidance in some fashion, yet still goes on to reject it. Dare we delve deeper into understanding this by saying that the person would have had to come to understand the guidance as originating from Allah, yet still reject it? Or does it not matter whether or not the person has understood what he/she has witnessed?
Peace,
Tay -
peace Tay,
Dare we delve deeper into understanding this by saying that the person would have had to come to understand the guidance as originating from Allah, yet still reject it? Or does it not matter whether or not the person has understand what he/she has witnessed?
Truth is always from God, so a person who rejects the truth is rejecting God. It does matter whether a person understands or not because a person who doesn't make the effort to understand anything, will never discover the truth. He/she will only believe (and believe anything).
So we have to understand everything, then pick which one is true, then follow it. -
Peace enquirer,
You stated
I think verses 2224-225 should make people think twice about this 'ritual' of branding people as kafirs
Excellent point.
2224-225
And do not make God the subject of your casual oaths. Be pious and righteous and reconcile among the people; and God is Listener, Knower. God will not call you to account for your casual oaths, but He will call you to account for what has entered your hearts. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.Is it fair to say, then, that someone who has not come to understand, in his or her heart, that the guidance is authentic, would not share the same fate as someone who does understand, yet still rejects it?
Peace,
Tay
