What is a kafir?
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Peace layth. I will ask you once again...Is it possible for YOU to make a mistake in interpretation...? If you dont answer,i will conclude you dont have an answer,or that you are infallible...
Anybody can quote verses which are not even relevant to the discussions...Im sure the wahabbis do that to you,to justify the sunnah...
To be honest your concept of truth is just your OPINION... -
I will ask you once again...Is it possible for YOU to make a mistake in interpretation...? If you dont answer,i will conclude you dont have an answer,or that you are infallible...
Anybody can quote verses which are not even relevant to the discussions...Im sure the wahabbis do that to you,to justify the sunnah...
To be honest your concept of truth is just your OPINION...
If you think Layth has made a mistake in his interpretation, let's see it? Otherwise it's just a cop-out from your side, this personal opinion stuff. -
Some articles
http//www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1676_0_25_0_C44
http//www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1710_0_25_0_C44see also
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0Thanks for these links JM. Peace.
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Peace layth. I will ask you once again...Is it possible for YOU to make a mistake in interpretation...? If you dont answer,i will conclude you dont have an answer,or that you are infallible...
Anybody can quote verses which are not even relevant to the discussions...Im sure the wahabbis do that to you,to justify the sunnah...
To be honest your concept of truth is just your OPINION...How are the verses he quoted irrelevant? Just curious.
Just assume Layth didn't supply any interpretation/commentary of the verses he pasted. Take the verses for what they are worth. How then do you interpret them?
To be sure, there isn't a shortage of Qur'anic verses that invite varying interpretations. These verses, however, don't seem to fall in that category. At least not at first blush. So do us a favor and inform us as to other possible interpretations.
Peace.
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Peace cavemandoctor. Because the verses used,agree with his conclusions only when being a muslim is defined as a theoretical mix of beliefs.... And these beliefs are not agreed upon or even logical/applicable in the real world...
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Peace jm. The links you have given,give some food for thought... bravo But i think there is still further to go than this...
The consequences and values dont have to be explicitly from the quran or scriptures,in my opinion....Does it matter where one gets ones values from,as long as one practically follows 'universal' moral laws,and takes due attention regarding possible consequences?IHMO, we should try to stick to the topic "What is a kafir ?"...
Arguments about "should we follow the quran or universal moral laws" and so on are not relevant in this thread.
You may wish to open a new one...Peace
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Peace jm. I felt that this was a relevant point,because we should know what it is that a person rejects (ie the literal quran,or the underlying universal morality in the quran.) before others make an assessment of his 'islamicness' or his 'character'...I may open a new thread in future...
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Peace All,
Well, it started out OK, but this thread has spun way out of control. No offense to anybody here, but, my intention was for a cooperative effort to understand what the term "kafir" means, according to the Qur'an, so that the members and casual readers can gain some understanding.
So, please, if you have nothing more to add to the meat of this discussion, then save it for another topic, no matter how compelled you are to reply. And if anyone else has something to add to understanding what a "kafir" is, then please disregard the current state of this thread and let's get is back on track.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Layth,
You stated
Peace Tay,I somewhat agree with you...A
Kafiris someone who rejects.But, that does not nessesarily mean that he/she has heard the message as he/she may be rejecting the concept of God or nature itself.
I agree, and my apologies for not specifying, but when I say "divine guidance", I'm including the extra-quranic signs. So, we both agree that a kafir is one who has "seen" or "heard" the guidance in some fashion, yet still goes on to reject it. Dare we delve deeper into understanding this by saying that the person would have had to come to understand the guidance as originating from Allah, yet still reject it? Or does it not matter whether or not the person has understood what he/she has witnessed?
Peace,
Tay -
peace Tay,
Dare we delve deeper into understanding this by saying that the person would have had to come to understand the guidance as originating from Allah, yet still reject it? Or does it not matter whether or not the person has understand what he/she has witnessed?
Truth is always from God, so a person who rejects the truth is rejecting God. It does matter whether a person understands or not because a person who doesn't make the effort to understand anything, will never discover the truth. He/she will only believe (and believe anything).
So we have to understand everything, then pick which one is true, then follow it. -
Peace enquirer,
You stated
I think verses 2224-225 should make people think twice about this 'ritual' of branding people as kafirs
Excellent point.
2224-225
And do not make God the subject of your casual oaths. Be pious and righteous and reconcile among the people; and God is Listener, Knower. God will not call you to account for your casual oaths, but He will call you to account for what has entered your hearts. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.Is it fair to say, then, that someone who has not come to understand, in his or her heart, that the guidance is authentic, would not share the same fate as someone who does understand, yet still rejects it?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Phoenix1,
You stated
Truth is always from God, so a person who rejects the truth is rejecting God.
I agree.
It does matter whether a person understands or not because a person who doesn't make the effort to understand anything, will never discover the truth.
Did you mean to say, "it does matter", or "it does not matter"? In either case, effort is NOT what's in question here, because effort is not outwardly visible. Allah promises to judge based on what's in our hearts, not what's casually mentioned. You do bring up a good point, though, because folks who label others as kafirs must then be sure that they understand whether or not the person they are labelling has trully understood what it is they are rejecting.
He/she will only believe (and believe anything).
Not sure what you meant there.
So we have to understand everything, then pick which one is true, then follow it.
Exactly. So, then, a kafir is one who does understand, knows it's true, but doesn't follow it. Right?
Peace,
Tay -
Here is kufr from the glossary of Parwez
Kufr / K'afir / K'afireen - (Kaf-Fa-Ra).
Kufr means to conceal, to hide, to cover.
Arimani has mentioned Akhfa, Satara, and Ajanna as synonyms of Kafara. Ibn-e-Faris also agrees that its basic meanings are to cover or conceal. Therefore,
- A person whose body is fully covered with weapons is called K'afir.
- Night is also called K'afir, as its darkness covers everything.
- Dark clouds are called K'afir.
- A river or sea is called K'afir as it covers everything lying in its bed.
- A farmer is called K'afir as he hides the seed under the soil (Taj).
- A grave is called Al-Kafro as it hides the dead-body.
In the same way, K'afir is a person who conceals the fundamental and absolute values of life, given to man by Allah. A person who hides his own or other peoples' potentialities and does not permit them to develop is also known as K'afir. Keeping in view this meaning of hiding or covering, it was also used in the meaning of denial, refusal or rejection. Therefore, it was also used in contrast to the concept of Ei'man, i.e., one who denies the absolute truth as given in the Quran (2/4-2/6). K'afir is used as an opposite of Momin
Kufr is also used as antonym of Shukr, as Shukr means something which gets prominent (14/7). From here the word "Kufran-e-N'aimat" is derived which means to hide bounties of nature, or to refuse to offer them for the good of mankind.
"Kaffara" is, therefore, an act which covers the misdeeds or the ill-effects of some wrong-doing.
Kafara has three origins
- Kufr'anun
- Kufrun
- Kofurun.
Kufr'anun is normally used as rejection of bounties of nature, Kufr is used as a denial, refusal, or rejection in respect of affairs of Deen, and Kofur is used for both the concepts. In the Quran the plural of K'afir is given as Kuff'ar, K'afiroon or Kaf'aratun. K'afoor is the scented medicine which reduces the intensity of heat.
Kafoorun is used in stronger terms of Kufr (Raghib).
It, therefore, transpires that Ei'man and Kufr are not merely matters of faith, but cover the practical aspects of life. To accept the Quranic Laws as truthful and then live accordingly is Ei'man and to reject them is Kufr. According to the Quran, the term K'afir is not an abuse, but is a statement of fact. For example, if a party is formed, everyone who joins it is called a "member," and those who do not join are called "non-members." Accordingly those who accept Islam are called Muslims and those who do not, non-Muslims. Every non-Muslim is not a K'afir in the real sense of the term. K'afir is a person to whom teachings of the Quran are conveyed and explained and after listening to them he rejects (47/32). There might be those who have not been guided to the truth. Then there are various categories of K'afireen, e.g., those who not only refuse to accept but also hinder others from accepting it, sometimes by force. There are a number of reasons as to why a person, even after listening to this message, refuses to accept
- Some do it on account of stubbornness, obstinacy, jealousy or grudge (2/90).
- Generally people do it because they feel haughty, rebellious, or have inflated egos. (35/42, 27/14).
- Some people do not accept because of false prestige; and once they say no, they would stick to it come what may (7/101) .... and when one goes on repeating the denial he gets hardened in this attitude.
- Once they get into this category, then their false prestige forces them to stop others, because they do not want to be left alone (47/32). For this they devise the strategy of advising other people not to listen to the Quran, and distracting them when Quran was being recited by making noise (41/26).
The people listed above are the people who will not have faith and be convinced even if one makes them aware of the dire consequences. This is because they have lost the capability of understanding (7/179).
There are two concepts of life. One is that the life is only physical; one is born, brought up procreates and after sometime dies, and there remains nothing of him. The other concept is that life is not the physical existence alone but enjoins the soul too, whose development is the real object of human life. This development of the personality enables a person to continue living even after his physical death.
The definition of Kufr, however, is not confined to the concealment of truth alone; it also includes withholding of subsistence, which Allah has created for the good of all mankind and which He wants to be freely available to all.
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peace Tay,
Did you mean to say, "it does matter", or "it does not matter"? In either case, effort is NOT what's in question here, because effort is not outwardly visible. Allah promises to judge based on what's in our hearts, not what's casually mentioned. You do bring up a good point, though, because folks who label others as kafirs must then be sure that they understand whether or not the person they are labelling has trully understood what it is they are rejecting.
I said it DOES matter.
Effort isn't always outwardly visible, that's why we shouldn't label others as rejectors, because maybe they are making an effort to discover the truth but just havn't found it yet. Even if we never understand, we should at least make the effort. the effort is what makes people believers or rejectors.Not sure what you meant there.
I meant that people who don't make the effort to understand, will never understand ANYTHING, let alone the truth. They will only follow blindly (without understanding first).
Even if they do believe the truth, they aren't believing it because they understand it to be the truth, but just because that's what was taught to them. Tell me if I was clear enough this time.Exactly. So, then, a kafir is one who does understand, knows it's true, but doesn't follow it. Right?
Or a person who doesn't open their mind and makes the effort to undersand everything, because if they don't make the effort to understand, they can never go to the next step which is seperating the truth from fiction.
There is no excuse for not understanding the truth, because we have all the tools we need to do that. -
Peace mquran,
Sorry I missed your post
The word 'kafir' has gained a racist interpretation in terms of popular usage. People not from the 'islamic civilisation' are deemed as the 'kuffar' but people who are from the 'islamic civilisation' including murderers, rapists and their ilk cannot be called 'kuffar'. This is all thanks to the Hambalite defense of the 'grave sinner'. Ahmad ibn Hambal declared that it's possible to be 'muslim' while knowingly and continually acting in a kuffar manner. This is of course, contrary to the teachings of al-quraan.
Thanks for the info. I didn't realize it was this sort of indoctrination that had people saying things like "a kuffar country" and such.
The root KFR appears in nearly 700 occurences, so you can imagine how immense the study is.
Yeah, PRL cited so many occurrences that I randomly picked through numbers for the sake of brevity.
One verse however which always stands out to me is this
O ye who believe! Spend out of (the bounties) We have provided for you, before the Day comes when no bargaining (Will avail), nor friendship nor intercession. Al-kafireen, they are az-zalimeen. (2/254)
The context here is very telling indeed. If you do not spend in the way of Allah (i.e by establishing justice and ad-deen), you are in fact an al-kaafir and an explanation of this is that you're an az-zaalim, or an oppressior.
QT has "az-zaalim" as "wicked". Surely, oppressors are wicked, but is the term more general than "oppressor"?
Kafir should always be seen in universal behavioural terms, never in racial, cultural or sectarian terms.
I agree, and would only add that as humans with limited insight, we should not even use the word unless a person has openly confessed to this behavior, either in words, or in undeniable action.
Peace,
Tay -
TayThanks for the info. I didn't realize it was this sort of indoctrination that had people saying things like "a kuffar country" and such.
Oh yes, its a whole pan-racist industry. That's why you'll find sunnis up in arms when Britain invaded Iraq but not a peep when the US invaded Panama. Who cares about a bunch of 'non-muslims'?!
QT has "az-zaalim" as "wicked". Surely, oppressors are wicked, but is the term more general than "oppressor"?
Well Tay, to me, in order to fully grasp the meaning, I'd stick with the actual word and acquire a mental set of signifieds when I read. For example, when I think of a zaalim guy, he's a guy who (among other things) refuses to spend in God's way.
I agree, and would only add that as humans with limited insight, we should not even use the word unless a person has openly confessed to this behavior, either in words, or in undeniable action.
And the undeniable action is causing mischief on earth. 2/6-20 is a good example of that explaination.