Is modern technology mentioned in the quran...?
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Simple; yes,i agree,the quran can be used to achieve peace if used correctly in conjunction with reason,real-world verification,experience,and compassion,and taken metaphorically,in its time context,and with a pinch of salt...Just like other scriptures...
peace enquirer
What is ur point? ur post makes an impression that u don't believe in GOD, as u r trying hardly
to reject that the coran is a miracle, and in this case there's no proof that it's from GOD.
What is the goal of coran for u? To lead us to GOD, or only a book that teaches compassion ......
Where do u what to get in u argue, so we can agree or disagree?? -
Peace salam. My main point is that MORAL BEHAVIOUR is the most important social requirement....Not just discussing abstract,ill-defined theoretical concepts....
ALL knowledge CAN be useful if used properly.....Why make the quran into an idol,or superior to every other knowledge.....? Or claim it is infallible.....? Even if you want to believe that,then at least it would be nice for people to back-up their theory with decent behaviour....
And it doesnt matter if you agree or disagree,because your choice to believe that the quran is perfect is a subjective choice....And does not upset me,until people try to oppress others with it...
The qurans' purpose,to me, is as potential knowledge,that can be used for good or bad....
I dont wish to argue,im responding to polite posts,and asking questions to make things clearer.....
As for god......which god do you want me to believe in...? The angry god in the sky,or the man-god...? Who/what is god........?
Peace all. Ps; i dont 'reject' quran,or god....i just believe in them in a different way to others..... -
Peace all. Arnoldyasin and all; of your list of 41,i find only two reasonably decent...But the evolution is rejected by many who interpret the quran....So that leaves one excellent fact/prediction...the finger-prints...The other points are all observable in nature or were known already...
Also what of the sticks turning into snakes,sea parting in two,splitting of the moon,camel through the eye of a needle,a burning bush talking to a man,a mountain turning to dust,giving life to the dead,and all the descriptions of heaven,hell,and the sun and moon joining together etc....? Are these all scientific and proven as well?
What about the description of all creatures walking on their belly,two legs or four legs....?
Did god forget centipedes,millipedes and spiders....?
And scientifically the spiders web is stronger than steel,yet the quran says the house of a spider is the weakest house....? How about a 'leech like clot' used to describe an emryo...Scientists have refuted this suggestion...
There are many more examples,go on to Google and search for 'contradictions' in the quran......and its not very consistent if someone produces a verse contradictory to science,and then people say 'oh thats a metaphorical verse',or thats an incorrect interpretation...2 decent? Then it shows you haven't researched them. And the rest are observable? Truly you are not objective, as you already made up your mind. If you were truly objective, then you would have gone through them one by one with me. As more then half of it cannot be observed in those times, and are clearly mentioned in the arabic. You don't even know the verses. And for the stick and parting of the sea and bringing up the dead, i already discussed most of it with you in other topics, i'm not gonna walk around in circles with you and others. And God only gives a few examples with the beasts on belly's, but you of course are like the people of Moses, you want every little detail, and still you would doubt then. Heaven and hell are metaphors as proclaimed in the Quran itself. And yes, spiders web is stronger then steel, but still it is the weakest as we can walk through it with ease. This example is ignorant, as you refer to that the web has better qualities then steel at that thinnes, and that is your proof it is not the weakest house? So you cannot walk through it anymore? Do you know how many times a spider must rebuild it's web? Go post these rejection of scientists instead of just 'mentioning' them. And dear enquirer, i'll never accuse you of rejection of God's miracles, that is up to God, not me. So i don't care what other people do or act. This is a discussion between you and me. And again, om my God, handchopping? the word used in that verse is almost everywhere used for property or abality, not hands, so it says cut of their property/resources. This you knew, but you keep going on about it. Slavegirls? Which?
But i see, you don't look at people's theoritical ideas you say...why then you keep coming with theoritical contradictions or theoritical unanswered questions? And consensus of the world! I don't need consensus of the world, i need the arabic meaning and the use for it in the Quran. That is the difference between me and you, i don't need people who believe it. I find out for myself, i don't follow other people's idea's, only when my insight agree with it. A lot of times you leave it up to other people or you refer to google or whatever. My own insight is enough for me. God is my guide and judge, not the rest of the world. Only evidence can show me. If i believe something and the whole rest of the world is against, i'll not care if i have enough evidence for myself.
But do i see here an enquirer that doesn't say; love people we must love each other ?? group yay bravo Do i see here a frustated enquirer? People answer your questions and when they do, you circle around it and refuse it. So it shows that nobody here on this forum can give the answers you want. You are frustrated by my conviction, that i have strong believe, you see that as blindness, but you know that is not true, you know that i go against the crowd more then you. I gave the things that convinced me, and i believe the contradictions and all the other things has to do with the misinterpretation of the classic arabic, twisted meanings and so on. Sometimes i gave my view on a verse, and translated it from the classic arabic, but then you said why all the other translators don't agree with me, so because of that you refused it. No arnold, because most muslims will not believe you, there is no 'consensus'. I look at the arabic, not the consensus....
Thanks for your permission in that i can believe what i want, i give the same permission to you. You know i only look at how to better the world, you used this topic to ask proof, we gave our ideas. You rejected them all. So there is no use for this topic. You accuse us of subjectivity, but you are also subjective. I see that in your posts. Please stop the hypocrisy. You knew you would never be convinced by any answer on this topic. You already had made up your mind. Everytime instead of really discussing the answers, you just give up new questions. This is no real objective research.
I'm done here with this driving around in the roundabout...
Peace and respect
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Peace arnoldyasin. You make a lot of assumptions about me...You also seem to think you can psychoanalyse me through my posts....
I recognise and respect some of your interpretations,and your efforts to correct 'unreasonable' interpretations....
Im not making this personal,you and all the forum are still brothers and sisters in humanity to me...
And it dont make the error of judging you just through your posts....
I know one member personally,and his posts are much different from his off-screen personality....
peace all. -
peace enquirer
Peace salam. My main point is that MORAL BEHAVIOUR is the most important social requirement....Not just discussing abstract,ill-defined theoretical concepts....
i totally agree with u, and that's what coran urges people to have, moral behaviour.
As for abstract discussions, it's the human's fault, not the coran's.
that's what's the coran says366 Here you have debated in what you knew; so why then do you debate in what you do not know? God knows
while you do not know.ALL knowledge CAN be useful if used properly.....Why make the quran into an idol,or superior to every other knowledge.....? Or claim it is infallible.....?
The qurans' purpose,to me, is as potential knowledge,that can be used for good or bad....The coran is not what u should use in ur life, but what u should believe in. Ur actions comes from u. And we say the coran is superior, because it's the words of GOD. Yes, the debate of humans about it is not superior, evenmore it's often ignorant, see the verse below
Even if you want to believe that,then at least it would be nice for people to back-up their theory with decent behaviour....
And does not upset me,until people try to oppress others with it...again it's the human
1032 The human is indeed in loss
And it doesnt matter if you agree or disagree,because your choice to believe that the quran is perfect is a subjective choice....
no it's not, it's a part of believing in GOD
2788 And you see the mountains, you think they are solid, while they are passing by like the clouds. The making of God who perfected everything. He is Expert over what you do.
the coran is the making of GOD
As for god......which god do you want me to believe in...? The angry god in the sky,or the man-god...? Who/what is god........?
there's is no man-god, and angry is said for human not GOD.
i mean GOD who created u, unless u believe in the dump darwin theorie.i dont 'reject' quran,or god....i just believe in them in a different way to others.....
everybody believes in his own way, and when the Hour comes, he will be asked of what he believed
SALAM
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Peace salam and all. We can wait for the 'hour',for clarification...
In the meantime,we can agree to disagree,and most of all be civil and respectful... bravo -
Peace arnoldyasin. You make a lot of assumptions about me...You also seem to think you can psychoanalyse me through my posts....
I recognise and respect some of your interpretations,and your efforts to correct 'unreasonable' interpretations....
Im not making this personal,you and all the forum are still brothers and sisters in humanity to me...
And it dont make the error of judging you just through your posts....
I know one member personally,and his posts are much different from his off-screen personality....
peace all.Peace,
Enquirer these are your words
....I only look at peoples behaviour,not their theoretical ideas...
I used the same technique on you. With me, what you read is what you get. If that is not in your case why write the things you write if that is not really you? Please answer this question
Could there have been any answer that would have convinced you that the Quran is divine? Answers to your questions?
i respect you to enquirer, but i don't respect the way you handle yourself on this forum. 90% of the people on this forum believe the Quran is divine. You ask us to respect your point of view. I do and most do. But i see you everywhere on this forum pointing out the Quran is not divine, is only a book with wisdom, people's interpretations can never be true or originaly meant as they don't coincide with the 'consensus'. You forget your place. You ask respect. Then show it first! Instead of simple questions and answers, do you know how you sound? The Quran is not divine, and believe what you want, but it is stupid to think so and behave so...This is how you sound. Do you forget that people can be offended by this? That you are on a forum where people's lives revolve on this faith in this book? And you ask respect? First show more respect by not screaming everytime you don't believe the Quran is divine. We know that already. That is your believe and i respect that. But i ask you to remind yourself from now on everytime you write something on this forum, if it will not offend people. I believe the Quran is divine and i have my reasons for it. I don't mind you don't approach it in this way, but i do mind the way you 'attack' other people who do approach it like this. Now your place is the 10%, don't act as we all should be like the 10%, this is the wrong forum for that.
So not only respect that we believe the Quran is divine, also behave like you respect it. Respect our awe for the Quran. Of course you can ask questions on the Quran, but it is in the way you do it how it will be recieved. Please don't see this as an attack, but as an advise. We both want the best in the world. And you know i also disagree with a lot of appraoches to the Quran by people. But i also disagree with your approach with our faith and why we believe in it.
Peace
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Peace arnoldyasin. Ok,you make a very valid point...I will try to respect the fact that you and others hold the quran in awe and reverence....
I dont know exactly what you could say to convince me the quran is 'divine' or absolute....more conclusive evidence?
I would also ask that you and others think about your comments to sunnis,shiahs,non-muslims etc... and references to idol-worhippers,kafirs etc,etc...
Peace all. ps; many are pretty critical of 19ers,sunnis,and many other religious view-points/ideologies as well....For consistency i hope you address the forum on these 'disrespectful' comments to others as well... -
Peace,
Thank you enquirer that you understood the purpose of my post. And you're right on how we should treat others.
Thank you for being a good sport. -
Peace all. I also apologise if i didnt fully respect any posters beliefs...
Take it easy all... -
Peace Cavemandoc,
Douglas Adams would be turning in his grave as we speak ;D
Cavemandoctor; One major problem with your example...The tv instructions dont claim to be divine,complete,or for all times.....
Lol. Y'know what the answers to all enquirer's questions are? Wait for it.......42.
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Cavemandoctor; One major problem with your example...The tv instructions dont claim to be divine,complete,or for all times.....
Wait a second, this is how you respond? I write a "thesis" (as you aptly put it), and you respond with 20 words (yes, I counted )? You said you were going to respond to my thesis later. What happened?
If you still are going to argue in this thread, I expect a full response to my points. You like to talk about civility and respect. Maybe you don't have a lot of experience with formal debate and argumentation, but when engaged in a formal discussion as we are here, civility and respect entail much more than just refraining from using a negative tone. They are also having the intellectual honesty to respond to someone's argument, point by point. Someone puts in time to make an argument and you must respond; that is respect.
If you do not, then I guess I was right in that I knew it was pointless to post and that you would just ignore what I said. Do you see, enquirer, now why many of us think you have an agenda? Why you're not sincerely asking questions to learn? That the only reason you ask these (in your mind, rhetorical) questions is to, in some twisted way, get people to your side (I only say this cause, as arnold pointed out, you seem to have a fundamental need to have others agree with you, the "consensus" effect)?
Like arnold, I respect your beliefs. You don't believe the Qur'an is divine? Fine. No, really. That's fine. Unlike you, I don't have this dire need to have others agree with me. What I don't respect are your hit-n-run tactics. When I make a counterargument, I expect you to respond to my points in an intellectually honest manner. You failed to respond to anything I said. I guess I should take it as a compliment. But this all just left a bad taste in my mouth.
Ugh.
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Lol. Y'know what the answers to all enquirer's questions are? Wait for it.......42.
D God knows he'd be just as satisfied with that answer as he would our answers.
Peace.
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Peace Arnoldyasin
The classic arabic was a common people's language and was not a religious language. So the words used in the Quran have a non-religious meaning, but are so clear as an example, only you have to think hard on how it is used. In those times people knew exactly how He meant it, so the difficult part is to understand how people in those times used it, when we have done that, the meaning is clear. Like with salat, when two horses were in a race, if the second one was catching up and got next to the first horse, the second horse was called a salawatil. So salat refers to contact/following closely. Classic arabic is an example-language. Ghafour was a helmet in those times, so when God says ghafour, it means He protects you. We are still digging out all those examples, as a lot of them are distorted by persian, hebrew, aramaic and traditional understanding. I hope this helps.
1.ok, I see as possible clear+difficult (like English grammar is clear but still we have to study it)
2.your post means that to understand this message one has to master classic Arabic as well as the history and language usage of the people at that time. What about who know the book but can't master those two things?
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My approach towards is to read understand Qur'an and try to follow the basic fundamental clear verses. I don't know Arabic and I never will become a Arabic scholar. The issues which they argue about endlessly on this forum regarding marriage, length of women dress and all these type of minor things have no importance to me.
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Peace KGB
My approach towards is to read understand Qur'an and try to follow the basic fundamental clear verses. I don't know Arabic and I never will become a Arabic scholar. The issues which they argue about endlessly on this forum regarding marriage, length of women dress and all these type of minor things have no importance to me.
to you, but to other people have, and maybe they will be important to you in your future.
Marriage is a minor thing in your belief?Peace Arnoldyasin
I forgot to ask you is Arabic is your mother tongue, please.
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Peace Arnoldyasin
The classic arabic was a common people's language and was not a religious language. So the words used in the Quran have a non-religious meaning, but are so clear as an example, only you have to think hard on how it is used. In those times people knew exactly how He meant it, so the difficult part is to understand how people in those times used it, when we have done that, the meaning is clear. Like with salat, when two horses were in a race, if the second one was catching up and got next to the first horse, the second horse was called a salawatil. So salat refers to contact/following closely. Classic arabic is an example-language. Ghafour was a helmet in those times, so when God says ghafour, it means He protects you. We are still digging out all those examples, as a lot of them are distorted by persian, hebrew, aramaic and traditional understanding. I hope this helps.
1.ok, I see as possible clear+difficult (like English grammar is clear but still we have to study it)
2.your post means that to understand this message one has to master classic Arabic as well as the history and language usage of the people at that time. What about who know the book but can't master those two things?
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is correct madam
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You have to understand arabic grammar. So you need to learn arabic, so you can understand how the words interact with another. BUT you cannot use the modern arabic meanings to understand the Quran as these meanings are distorted. So then you have to buy every classic arabic dictionary and find out the meanings of those times and how they fit in the Quran, also by using cross-reference and the context of verses we can get perfect meanings. The main problem is nowadays, that arabic speaking persons use modern arabic meanings to explain Quran, that most don't use cross-reference or context and ignore important correlations between classic arabic meanings like the ghafour being a helmet in those days and for example that Rahman and Raheem both come from the same root as the word nourishment and even a womb. So the meanings of Rahman and Raheem is not just mercifull and gracious, it also refers to that God is the nourisher and evolver. These connections are ignored or not taking serious which is almost a crime. The problem now is to avoid the above common mistakes and to outgrow the distorted meanings of words. And no madam, arabic is not my mother tongue.
Peace and respect
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Regarding 20 words reply its actually is 19 words reply if you exclude the CavemanDoctor. This reply do come after much of consultation between the group. Don't you see that he is trying to change the topic with his usual BS of equalility open minded approach, respect.
These people egos are so big they find it difficult to say sorry I was wrong and accept the truth. I am not told to respect manafiqeen, I am not told to respect people who disrespect Allah (SWT), I am not told to respect people who do not respect Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him).
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Peace Arnoldyasin
- You have to understand arabic grammar. So you need to learn arabic, so you can understand how the words interact with another. BUT you cannot use the modern arabic meanings to understand the Quran as these meanings are distorted. So then you have to buy every classic arabic dictionary and../..The problem now is to avoid the above common mistakes and to outgrow the distorted meanings of words.
in conclusion (yours), who doesn't know arabic grammar + don't learn Arabic of that time won't understand the correct meaning of the quran, correct, sr? Further conclusion (mine), they will have to rely on translations and /or interpretations of others, just as it is being done nowadays.