Is modern technology mentioned in the quran...?
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Rats are the first one to jump off the sinking ship. ;D
Smart move!
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Peace Arnoldyasin
Peace Arnoldyasin
- You have to understand arabic grammar. So you need to learn arabic, so you can understand how the words interact with another. BUT you cannot use the modern arabic meanings to understand the Quran as these meanings are distorted. So then you have to buy every classic arabic dictionary and../..The problem now is to avoid the above common mistakes and to outgrow the distorted meanings of words.
in conclusion (yours), who doesn't know arabic grammar + don't learn Arabic of that time won't understand the correct meaning of the quran, correct, sr? Further conclusion (mine), they will have to rely on translations and /or interpretations of others, just as it is being done nowadays.
Yes, but that is not the best way. As your depended on that persons interpretation and not on the Quran itself. So i advise everyone to learn arabic. But indeed in the meanwhile learn the translations. Because the main message can be laerned from it.
Peacethis is not working Arnolyasin, something is left
if the 'main message' can be learned from translations, why the objections to them and their interpretations being the majority of them traditional, the distorted meanings in them and who knows in the progressive ones, etc, besides, more important, some of those distorted meanings can belong to the 'main'. I mean, let's suppose you mean by 'main message' = believing in God + good deeds, but how to perform those good deeds and how has to be that belief, these can be among the distorted meanings, why you don't include them in the 'main'? it's like taking them as irrelevant or taht they can be disregard.
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Peace Arnoldyasin
Peace Arnoldyasin
- You have to understand arabic grammar. So you need to learn arabic, so you can understand how the words interact with another. BUT you cannot use the modern arabic meanings to understand the Quran as these meanings are distorted. So then you have to buy every classic arabic dictionary and../..The problem now is to avoid the above common mistakes and to outgrow the distorted meanings of words.
in conclusion (yours), who doesn't know arabic grammar + don't learn Arabic of that time won't understand the correct meaning of the quran, correct, sr? Further conclusion (mine), they will have to rely on translations and /or interpretations of others, just as it is being done nowadays.
Yes, but that is not the best way. As your depended on that persons interpretation and not on the Quran itself. So i advise everyone to learn arabic. But indeed in the meanwhile learn the translations. Because the main message can be laerned from it.
Peacethis is not working Arnolyasin, something is left
if the 'main message' can be learned from translations, why the objections to them and their interpretations being the majority of them traditional, the distorted meanings in them and who knows in the progressive ones, etc, besides, more important, some of those distorted meanings can belong to the 'main'. I mean, let's suppose you mean by 'main message' = believing in God + good deeds, but how to perform those good deeds and how has to be that belief, these can be among the distorted meanings, why you don't include them in the 'main'? it's like taking them as irrelevant or taht they can be disregard.
Peace
What i didn't include, i think you filled it in yourself here. I never said what was part of the main message, you did that yourself. So the 'why didn't you include them part' is a bit strnage and out of place. As for the translations, you have to read ALL of them to see how the range of meanings can be, and then still keep in mind that 20% of the message is not translated correctly in all of those translations. For the rest i've been clear enough i believe. I'm not gonna explain all translations i don't agree with and which part is 'main' or not. If you really want my opinion on those, PM me.
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Peace Arnoldyasin
What i didn't include
the things you are studying to outgrow the distorted meanings
if I understood you well, you distinguish two things in the quran
- the main message, that you said it can be learnt from the translations
- the rest (what is not the main message) that can't be learnt from the trasnlations because have been distorted and need master classic arabic + history and language usage of that time to get the correct meaning
did I undertand you well? If yes, I continue (if not, you tell me)
my query among the things that need those masterings to be understood correctly, there can be some that are also main, crucial. Why did you separate those things from the main or how do you know they are not part of the main message?
ps what does "you filled it in yourself" mean? is itan English idiom?
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Peace Arnoldyasin
What i didn't include
the things you are studying to outgrow the distorted meanings
if I understood you well, you distinguish two things in the quran
- the main message, that you said it can be learnt from the translations
- the rest (what is not the main message) that can't be learnt from the trasnlations because have been distorted and need master classic arabic + history and language usage of that time to get the correct meaning
did I undertand you well? If yes, I continue (if not, you tell me)
my query among the things that need those masterings to be understood correctly, there can be some that are also main, crucial. Why did you separate those things from the main or how do you know they are not part of the main message?
ps what does "you filled it in yourself" mean? is itan English idiom?
No, a lot of different things are translated or approached wrong. So i cannot pinpoint one subject or not. What i mean more is that you can get a global idea of the message of the Quran, i didn't mean 'main subjects'. And i never seperated anything from the 'main'. You made your own idea of what i meant with 'main', that is what i meant with you filled it in yourself. But we are getting off-topic here.
Peace
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Er enquirer?!? Where are you? Even your 'back-ups' didn't take this long to reach you as your replies to these queries are?
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Peace
No, a lot of different things are translated or approached wrong. So i cannot pinpoint one subject or not. What i mean more is that you can get a global idea of the message of the Quran, i didn't mean 'main subjects'. And i never seperated anything from the 'main'. You made your own idea of what i meant with 'main', that is what i meant with you filled it in yourself. But we are getting off-topic here
you were who said "main message" that implies there are other things that don't belong to the 'main', then I asked for clarification.
in the last post you add a new term "global message"
it is not clear
I leave this discussion in peace. Thanks.
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Peace,
Sorry, if it is not clear, ok i'll try to clarify what i mean. With global message, i refer to the oneness of God, the resort to peace and goodness, that the Quran is connected with the other scriptures, that we should be aware of outside sources and so on. These are the global themes in the Quran, that can be understood even by almost all translations. But when it comes to deeper details even to the above subjects, the arabic must be investigated further. Like rahman and raheem come from the same root as nourishment/provide, this root is also shared with womb. So rahmaan and raheem is translated by most as only most mercifull, most gracious, but it is also connected with that God is the nourisher/provider as a womb is for a foetus. So with carefull study, a deeper layer is found. I hope this gives a bit of start of understanding..
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Peace
Quran is connected with the other scriptures
Can you clearify this.
All this root transalations is faulty way of approaching Qur'an. This is my point of view none of you have to agree with it.
Don't worry about topic going off topic. This topic is not going anywhere. All the Genius are trying to keep away as much as they can. The whole group who use to praise each other for very word are on the run.
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That it confirmes earlier scriptures. That it doesn't reject earlier revelations, but even welcomes them, but also warns us that they are corrupted over time. And yes where is our enquirer?
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Peace Arnold Yasin
Your reply make that statement very clear.
Now lets look at the history. Hadiths books are the part of history. Why history is important? Do we have to look at hadiths as history records to for the understanding of Qur'an?
I read Qur'an without any knowledge of history without even knowing what are Makki or Madni verses and try to apply them at present time.
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Peace,
This is my approach to hadith
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5825.msg88187#msg88187
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Peace
With global message, i refer to the oneness of God, the resort to peace and goodness, that the Quran is connected with the other scriptures, that we should be aware of outside sources and so on. These are the global themes in the Quran, that can be understood even by almost all translations. But when it comes to deeper details even to the above subjects, the arabic must be investigated further.
I see. I had even thought those items were what you took as main, when I mentioned belief in God + good deeds, now I see you add the item other scriptures/sources. It's clear.
I still think those deeper details can be as important as those you have mentioned, especially in regards to the life of muslims and non muslims today and in future time, they effect in the life. I wish you and the rest of people who are studying the quran the best of success in your research and the most possible objectivity.
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Er enquirer?!? Where are you? Even your 'back-ups' didn't take this long to reach you as your replies to these queries are?
Yeah, where's the promised response to my "thesis"? ???
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Peace all. Enquirer is back... bravo
The ad homineum,and unanswered questions still continue...
The 'cheerleading' of incomplete answers still continue...
In response to your clutching at 'straws' of 25 years,.....25 years studying islam (which includes a study of quran.) but more specific,detailed study of quran in later years,which does not equal 25 years,unless totalled including the 'early' years of learning ...If you cant understand this,then thats not my problem....
Its funny all those who try to discredit,and attack,cannot refute,or explain away all the inconsistencies in the 'plethora' of interpretations,and all the discrepancies of their 'theories',with reality.......
As for the 'timelessness',well i know many of you liked this theory of modern technology not being mentioned in the quran because of the quran supposedly,being timeless...Well if it WAS timeless,then why does it mention events and technology which are not timeless???... That flat out demolishes,the 'timeless' theory,which many of you 'cheerlead'...
And finally,i would just say,when any of the more objective of you,actually understand,agree upon,and can explain clearly what the quran says about certain topics ( topics such as salat,hajj,allah,zakat,shura,right hand women,kaaba,muhammed,democracy,who believes and who doesnt,science,amputations,sticks into snakes,sea splitting into mountains,black magic,whippings,etc,etc...) ,and if you can ever establish/explain how a succesful 'political' or practical 'quran only' system can run, (before the day of judgement please...) then please post these explanations on the forum for everybodies benefit.....
.....I will be waiting for your replies....
My 25 years,taught me to recognise the limitations and 'false rhethoric' of the scriptural interpretations,as explained by the cheerleaders,and followers of illusions...
Peace all. ps; oh,and if anyone can even ATTEMPT to answer why no record of an 'established' quran only political state in the past 1400 years,then please do so...if not for me,do it for other people who would like to know....
We are all free to believe in what we deem correct....but the proof of the pudding is in the eating...
Take it easy people...take my post as 'constructive' criticism... sun group -
No no no. You don't get to dodge this time.
I expect a point by point response to my "thesis."
This means actually responding to each argument, not simply skirting the issue and tossing out 15 other arguments at us that do not even belong in this thread. Wasn't this thread about technology in the Qur'an? All your other hit-n-run arguments belong in other threads. This thread has nothing to do with salat, hajj, political states, etc. so leave it elsewhere.
Don't think we don't see what you're doing. When you cant fully answer all the points, you simply hide behind other "arguments" that have nothing to do with the original thread.
I'm sorry, does that offend you? Is that too ad hominem for you?
Some words of advice
- Grow a thicker skin. You live in the real world. Not everyone has to walk on eggshells just to have a discussion with you.
- When you ask for arguments, and someone takes you up on your offer, then have the decency and respect to respond to their counterargument.
Peace.
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2544 Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path.
Try to understand this verse with the low level intelligence you possesed. The person who has no intelligence to read and understand the message. There is no way you can see the Qur'an social and political message.
I really had eough of you in your previous life on the forum.