Any examples of 'quran only' states from history.....?
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mr.humble,
since Zenje posted this verse, i reflected upon it to see why it was posted.
Actually, enquirer posted it first specifically to ask the original question on this thread.first of all, god says that he will make "those who believe and do good works"(substitute this phrase for the term "them" ) successors on earth. come on, think it could be any group of people who is applicable under this circumstance, any group who believes in god alone and do good works. are muslims the only ones in history to qualify? i certainly do not think so...
That's why I reposted the verse. To really look at what it's talking about. Is it about "muslims"? Is it about a state? Is it really about political gain? I'm glad you caught it out. )
If you haven't yet, read the thread from the beginning to see what it's all about.Enquirer,
I stated 1100 years minimun,in response to one of the posters suggesting that the 'quran only' phase lasted 300 years...others suggested this time period was much less in their posts...
Which brings me back to my question, if you're talking about a "quran only state", and you believe that it existed 10 years, 200 years, 300 years (not the point), then why would you be asking about this "promise" when the "promise" has been fulfiled?My overall point is,should not 'political' success in some form be achieved from following 'quranic principles'...?
Even though it's not the aim, it is a by product. Again, what's 'political' success, and is this what it's talking about?I dont know if there was an 'islamic' state based on quran only after the death of the prophet,the evidence points to a state built on the quran and sunnah...
Which evidence?.. when traditional hadith and corruption did not appear until after 200 years? Not that I follow that history either.Do you think there was an 'islamic state' during the time of the prophet receiving the quran?...
What I think doesn't matter. What happened doesn't matter to me. )Peace
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Peace
Peace br simple. I agree with parts of your analysis... I agree some 'universal principles' may be found in the quran...These same universal principles can be found in other scriptures,and from personal experience too...
So do you believe the Qur'an to be from God, or no? Or just parts you like are from God? I'm just asking out of mere confusion and curiosity, nothing else. If you could answer this, I would greatly appreciate it.
Peace.
? Therefore, congratulate My servants who listen to all views, then follow the best. These are the ones guided by God; these are the intelligent ones.
Its not just the quran -when ever people get together and select the best of the counsel offered by people the guidance is from God ,He is working in us (with the attributes) , as He Has said deliberatly above.
So even the MP's in the houses of parliment , Lords or the two two houses of the goverment in USA follow the quranic way or Gods guidance and where ever this takes place for the benefit of people in general.
Simerlarly the other principle of the quran are followed elsewhere.
The principles of the quran are from God , but saying that He has given shown them to all of humanity
and some people are following more of these principle then the muslims themselves so they are actually better guided.But coming back to your Quistion is the quran Godly? - a firm yes-i think.
God Bless.
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Peace all.
Phoenix/kafir ( ).); I agree with some of your your post,but was the success explicitly derived from the quran,or quranic principles,or from peoples experiences and pragmatism?... And,have we discovered no new universal principles since the quran...?
DanishExcellent post,short but incisive.
Openmind;I dont believe the quran is 100% truth,although i believe it contains some truths.
Simple; I empathise with some of your views,however do you think there are any more universal principles other than those mentioned in the quran?
Zenje; my point about the promise is that it is unclear whether there ever was a quran only state after the time of the prophet (or even during the prophets time?),so how can the promise have been realised in the past 1400 years? I realise that you have a different criteria for 'success' so the question seems moot anyway...Political success,to me,would mean a society run by accountable leaders on principles of justice,equality,law and order,freedom,peace,and economic prosperity.
Peace all. ps; Are there any more new universal principles to be discovered after the quran...Boy,that might need a new thread... elektro -
Peace all.
Phoenix/kafir ( .); I agree with some of your your post,but was the success explicitly derived from the quran,or quranic principles,or from peoples experiences and pragmatism?... And,have we discovered no new universal principles since the quran...?
DanishExcellent post,short but incisive.
Openmind;I dont believe the quran is 100% truth,although i believe it contains some truths.
Simple; I empathise with some of your views,however do you think there are any more universal principles other than those mentioned in the quran?
Peace all. ps; Are there any more new universal principles to be discovered after the quran...Boy,that might need a new thread... elektroYou gotta love it when Teacher gives his comments, don't you?
ZenjeZenje; my point about the promise is that it is unclear whether there ever was a quran only state after the time of the prophet (or even during the prophets time?),so how can the promise have been realised in the past 1400 years?
The point is, when history does in fact prove the 'quranic camp' correct (I can think of many incidents in hadith literature which shows the sole authority of al-quraan), Enquirer rejects it. His hypocrisy and need for agreement forces him to overlook facts which contradict him.
I realise that you have a different criteria for 'success' so the question seems moot anyway...
The point is to determine whether or not there's was a polity by people who accept al-quraan (in principle) as their criterion? How can the question by therefore moot?
Political success,to me,would mean a society run by accountable leaders on principles of justice,equality,law and order,freedom,peace,and economic prosperity.
Accountable? You mean like when they enter into debates, they actually give facts as opposed to doing a runner?
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Peace,
Are there any more new universal principles to be discovered after the quran
I don't understand this? Universal means universally known, meaning basic principles...why and how could there be new ones? That would mean that the people before us were gypped or they knew them and now we don't. A very unlikely possibility. If people kept on making 'new' basic principles how would that compute in the long history of human kind? Unless someone believes that mankind is a giant evolving blob of collective conciousness that always goes one step better collectively? This has no evidence except, like someone brought forth the declarations of the un etc that are ignored by the powers that be at any moment and which also does not mean that mankind through history did not have their own equally useless declarations. Evolution of thought is a personal thing and also there is no blob let alone an evolved blob unless a lot of people get together and either start lynching or changing the world for the better. -
Nadya don't understand this? Universal means universally known, meaning basic principles...why and how could there be new ones? That would mean that the people before us were gypped or they knew them and now we don't.
Well, some people don't actually think before they post. The essence of the human being has been addressed by al-quraan. The only way to see if the preceding statement is true is to interrogate it. Sadly, some people are here to sell, not discuss.
A very unlikely possibility. If people kept on making 'new' basic principles how would that compute in the long history of human kind? Unless someone believes that mankind is a giant evolving blob of collective conciousness that always goes one step better collectively? This has no evidence except, like someone brought forth the declarations of the un etc that are ignored by the powers that be at any moment. Evolution of thought is a personal thing, there is no blob unless a lot of people get together and either start lynching or changing the world for the better.
What is being sought after here is the 'BETS' principle. 'BETS' stands for 'Because Enquirer Thinks So'. As long the BETS principle stands, all will be OK. If the BETS principle is falsified the 'E' in BETS opens yet another thread and plies another set of wares.
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Peace Sc. Universal principles meaning verifiably and certainly true,i dont mean necessarily universally known...
An example would be new science and discoveries which are verifiable as universally true/applicable,eg nuclear fusion...but not known by everyone at all times in history,or even by all current people...Another example would be the 'success' of penicilllin,etc,etc..
peace. -
EnquirerPeace Sc. Universal principles meaning verifiably and certainly true,i dont mean necessarily universally known...
An example would be new science and discoveries which are verifiable as universally true/applicable,eg nuclear fusion...but not known by everyone at all times in history,or even by all current people...Another example would be the 'success' of penicilllin,etc,etc..Somebody is very confused here and thinks al-quraan is 'the complete guide to scientific knowledge of the universe'.
Al-quraan is the detailling of al-kitaab, the writ of the human being. It doesn't tell you about nuclear energy or penicillin but it does tell you what happens when you save people or kill them. That's what counts.
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Joe, have you forgotten the BETS principle already? It's only complete if Enquirer thinks so! Never mind what al-quraan asserts even though it's the one under the microscope. We don't need the defendant to speak for itself, lets sentence it on the BETS principle.
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Peace all. What about the MODS principle...? (mquran over-zealously defining scripture... .) rotfl bravo yay group
peace all. ps;I have many more,and much more inventive acronyms than that one,...but i will refrain from 'over-exciting' people... elektro -
Salaams enquirer,
you said" I empathise with some of your views,however do you think there are any more universal principles other than those mentioned in the quran?"
Unfortunately --YES.
Salaams.
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Peace simple. Could you elaborate a little on that please,and maybe give an example of a universal principle from outside the quran please...?
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Universal principles meaning verifiably and certainly true,i dont mean necessarily universally known...
An example would be new science and discoveries which are verifiable as universally true/applicable,eg nuclear fusion...but not known by everyone at all times in history,or even by all current people...Another example would be the 'success' of penicilllin,etc,etc..Science discoveries? Penicillin? There is a thread for you, it's called 'Is modern technology mentioned in the quran...?', it's in this section here . Now, other than that can you come up with any basic principle/moral that is new today and that wasn't known before? And please when and if you do list a 'new principle', tell me what makes it a principle...how does one determine that it is?
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Peace all. What about the MODS principle...? (mquran over-zealously defining scripture... .)
If I am, you're more than welcome to say so and of course to do the one thing which is so beyond you giving evidence. Until then, you'll just remain the guy who never read a thing. Your 'no quranic govt' remarks are so indicative of that. It's so obvious you've never engaged with the Islamica. Who are you kidding with the 25 years thing, man ?
peace all. ps;I have many more,and much more inventive acronyms than that one,...but i will refrain from 'over-exciting' people...
Shall I take 'many more' to be as high-volumed as '25 years', thus making it 'no more' ?
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Peace Sc. Yes,the current principle of human rights for all people regardless of being muslim,believer,atheist,hindu,sikh,agnostic etc,etc that seems not to be known by some on this forum.
And the principle that a person be 'judged' by hispractical deeds/behaviours,and not on arbitrary,sectarian dogmatic creeds such as belief in angels,a single day of judgement,prophets,books,a vengeful angry god,etc,etc....
If you feel these are not valid principles,then i suggest a long,hard look at yourself... -
Enquirer, you have not answered my question-
Now, other than that can you come up with any basic principle/moral that is new today and that wasn't known before? And please when and if you do list a 'new principle', tell me what makes it a principle...how does one determine that it is?
So what are you on about with the hard looks and the hispractical deeds?
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Enquirereace Sc. Yes,the current principle of human rights for all people regardless of being muslim,believer,atheist,hindu,sikh,agnostic etc,etc that seems not to be known by some on this forum.
Human rights? Wow, that sounds very familiar. I think if we contemplate under a lote-tree, we are apt to remember why.
As for the principle of justice, the guy who studied Islam for 25 years doesn't know that al-quraan DOES NOT SEPERATE between people who believe and otherwise when it comes crimes. A life is for a life.
Prediction Enquirer will agree to this, BETS remember ?
And the principle that a person be 'judged' by hispractical deeds/behaviours,and not on arbitrary,sectarian dogmatic creeds such as belief in angels,a single day of judgement,prophets,books,a vengeful angry god,etc,etc....
Once again, 25 years wasn't enough to show this guy that NOWHERE in al-quraan is a person punished for not believing. He is punished when he infringes upon the rights of others. If you steal, that's your right but whose things are you stealing?
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Peace Sc. I have answered your post with the 'principles' i listed,...which seem not to be universally found in the quran... (except for divergent,rare interpretations.)....I personally think you know full well what my post means,if you dont,read it again,and ask for clarification...
Peace. ps; do you believe in full equal rights for all people regardless of beliefs and religion...? -
No you haven't if you read carefully but that's alright.
Ps I know that you know full well what I mean but there you go on your random tangents again...or maybe that's where you wanted it to go anyway. Thanks for your time.