Any examples of 'quran only' states from history.....?
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Joe, have you forgotten the BETS principle already? It's only complete if Enquirer thinks so! Never mind what al-quraan asserts even though it's the one under the microscope. We don't need the defendant to speak for itself, lets sentence it on the BETS principle.
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Peace all. What about the MODS principle...? (mquran over-zealously defining scripture... .) rotfl bravo yay group
peace all. ps;I have many more,and much more inventive acronyms than that one,...but i will refrain from 'over-exciting' people... elektro -
Salaams enquirer,
you said" I empathise with some of your views,however do you think there are any more universal principles other than those mentioned in the quran?"
Unfortunately --YES.
Salaams.
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Peace simple. Could you elaborate a little on that please,and maybe give an example of a universal principle from outside the quran please...?
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Universal principles meaning verifiably and certainly true,i dont mean necessarily universally known...
An example would be new science and discoveries which are verifiable as universally true/applicable,eg nuclear fusion...but not known by everyone at all times in history,or even by all current people...Another example would be the 'success' of penicilllin,etc,etc..Science discoveries? Penicillin? There is a thread for you, it's called 'Is modern technology mentioned in the quran...?', it's in this section here . Now, other than that can you come up with any basic principle/moral that is new today and that wasn't known before? And please when and if you do list a 'new principle', tell me what makes it a principle...how does one determine that it is?
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Peace all. What about the MODS principle...? (mquran over-zealously defining scripture... .)
If I am, you're more than welcome to say so and of course to do the one thing which is so beyond you giving evidence. Until then, you'll just remain the guy who never read a thing. Your 'no quranic govt' remarks are so indicative of that. It's so obvious you've never engaged with the Islamica. Who are you kidding with the 25 years thing, man ?
peace all. ps;I have many more,and much more inventive acronyms than that one,...but i will refrain from 'over-exciting' people...
Shall I take 'many more' to be as high-volumed as '25 years', thus making it 'no more' ?
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Peace Sc. Yes,the current principle of human rights for all people regardless of being muslim,believer,atheist,hindu,sikh,agnostic etc,etc that seems not to be known by some on this forum.
And the principle that a person be 'judged' by hispractical deeds/behaviours,and not on arbitrary,sectarian dogmatic creeds such as belief in angels,a single day of judgement,prophets,books,a vengeful angry god,etc,etc....
If you feel these are not valid principles,then i suggest a long,hard look at yourself... -
Enquirer, you have not answered my question-
Now, other than that can you come up with any basic principle/moral that is new today and that wasn't known before? And please when and if you do list a 'new principle', tell me what makes it a principle...how does one determine that it is?
So what are you on about with the hard looks and the hispractical deeds?
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Enquirereace Sc. Yes,the current principle of human rights for all people regardless of being muslim,believer,atheist,hindu,sikh,agnostic etc,etc that seems not to be known by some on this forum.
Human rights? Wow, that sounds very familiar. I think if we contemplate under a lote-tree, we are apt to remember why.
As for the principle of justice, the guy who studied Islam for 25 years doesn't know that al-quraan DOES NOT SEPERATE between people who believe and otherwise when it comes crimes. A life is for a life.
Prediction Enquirer will agree to this, BETS remember ?
And the principle that a person be 'judged' by hispractical deeds/behaviours,and not on arbitrary,sectarian dogmatic creeds such as belief in angels,a single day of judgement,prophets,books,a vengeful angry god,etc,etc....
Once again, 25 years wasn't enough to show this guy that NOWHERE in al-quraan is a person punished for not believing. He is punished when he infringes upon the rights of others. If you steal, that's your right but whose things are you stealing?
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Peace Sc. I have answered your post with the 'principles' i listed,...which seem not to be universally found in the quran... (except for divergent,rare interpretations.)....I personally think you know full well what my post means,if you dont,read it again,and ask for clarification...
Peace. ps; do you believe in full equal rights for all people regardless of beliefs and religion...? -
No you haven't if you read carefully but that's alright.
Ps I know that you know full well what I mean but there you go on your random tangents again...or maybe that's where you wanted it to go anyway. Thanks for your time.
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EnquirerPeace Sc. I have answered your post with the 'principles' i listed,...which seem not to be universally found in the quran... (except for divergent,rare interpretations.)....I personally think you know full well what my post means,if you dont,read it again,and ask for clarification...
Lol, so a 'life for a life' and 'if you take a life, you've taken the whole humanity' is a DIVERGENT and RARE interpretation? What's the common interpretation for it?
Peace. ps; do you believe in full equal rights for all people regardless of beliefs and religion...?
After 25 years, you still have to ask a Quranic believer this?
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After 25 years, you still have to ask a Quranic believer this?
Strange isn't it?!? Why would one need to ask this? -
Peace simple. Could you elaborate a little on that please,and maybe give an example of a universal principle from outside the quran please...?
The quran has only limited enforcement policies, and the level of enforcement prevailing the advanced nation is extra quranic.
Where is the law to enforce people not to change the will, or rather where is the punishment for this?
There is a voluntary fasting of three days ? and that is voluntary, it?s not forced neither, in the advanced nations the punishment would be a number of days in prison, this stops us chatting and makes us think on our own (like talking fasts) or a fine or punishment differed if the plaintiff is sick or doesn?t have the means.
So the enforced punishment is another principle ?not in the quran for this and many other crimes.
Fagan baddalahu baAAda ma samiAAahufa-innama ithmuhu AAala allatheenayubaddiloonahu inna Allaha sameeAAun AAaleemun
If anyone changes the bequest after hearing it, the guilt shall be on those who make the change. For Allah hears and knows (All things).
182.
Faman khafa min moosinjanafan aw ithman faaslaha baynahum falaithma AAalayhi inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemunBut if anyone fears partiality or wrong-doing on the part of the testator, and makes peace between (The parties concerned), there is no wrong in him For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
183.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookutiba AAalaykumu alssiyamu kamakutiba AAala allatheena min qablikum laAAallakumtattaqoonaO ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint,-
Again calling people names or making fun of them is against the law you will be punished, however this isn?t in the quran , in the quran it is advised only.
Do NOT make fun of others, or call them names
"O you who believe, no people shall ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. Anyone who does not repent after this, these are the transgressors." (4911)Do NOT be 'Racist'
"O people, We created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant." (4913)Although the principle of enforcement exists in the quran its application is limited in the quran to say killings, adultery, and theft e.t.c
Another case looking after the poor is again voluntary but in certain nation its haram to let suffering exist so its voluntary to have the safeguards for looking after the poor ,young , old , sick , unemployed e.t.c
The quran has rules regulations for the 1400 years ago and some still applicable today but many of these need improving but not all of them.
God Bless.
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Simple, I hope you don't mind me interjecting.
SimpleThe quran has only limited enforcement policies, and the level of enforcement prevailing the advanced nation is extra quranic.
And how do you know the 'extra quranic' level of enforcement for 'the advanced nation' belongs to the category of 'universal principle'. What if its not universal but belongs only to the particular nation?
Where is the law to enforce people not to change the will, or rather where is the punishment for this?
Maybe there isn't one and maybe you're trying to project one despite that fact?
There is a voluntary fasting of three days ? and that is voluntary, it?s not forced neither, in the advanced nations the punishment would be a number of days in prison, this stops us chatting and makes us think on our own (like talking fasts) or a fine or punishment differed if the plaintiff is sick or doesn?t have the means.
Is it possible that Allah didn't prescribe a legal punishment at all? Allah says as-siyaam is so that you have be in taqwa. So if you don't siyaam, you won't have the taqwa afforded to you if you did.
Although the principle of enforcement exists in the quran its application is limited in the quran to say killings, adultery, and theft e.t.c
Yes, for all the things affecting OTHER people. If you don't fast, that's not my business but if you go around killing people, then that's no longer your personal space, is it?
Another case looking after the poor is again voluntary but in certain nation its haram to let suffering exist so its voluntary to have the safeguards for looking after the poor ,young , old , sick , unemployed e.t.c
So Allah didn't make it compulsory, i.e. something to be forced but you're making it so?
The quran has rules regulations for the 1400 years ago and some still applicable today but many of these need improving but not all of them.
Please tell us
a. what needs 'improving'.
b. by what measure , what is your yardstick that it will be 'improved'. -
Simple, I hope you don't mind me interjecting.
SimpleThe quran has only limited enforcement policies, and the level of enforcement prevailing the advanced nation is extra quranic.
And how do you know the 'extra quranic' level of enforcement for 'the advanced nation' belongs to the category of 'universal principle'. What if its not universal but belongs only to the particular nation?
Where is the law to enforce people not to change the will, or rather where is the punishment for this?
Maybe there isn't one and maybe you're trying to project one despite that fact?
There is a voluntary fasting of three days ? and that is voluntary, it?s not forced neither, in the advanced nations the punishment would be a number of days in prison, this stops us chatting and makes us think on our own (like talking fasts) or a fine or punishment differed if the plaintiff is sick or doesn?t have the means.
Is it possible that Allah didn't prescribe a legal punishment at all? Allah says as-siyaam is so that you have be in taqwa. So if you don't siyaam, you won't have the taqwa afforded to you if you did.
Although the principle of enforcement exists in the quran its application is limited in the quran to say killings, adultery, and theft e.t.c
Yes, for all the things affecting OTHER people. If you don't fast, that's not my business but if you go around killing people, then that's no longer your personal space, is it?
Another case looking after the poor is again voluntary but in certain nation its haram to let suffering exist so its voluntary to have the safeguards for looking after the poor ,young , old , sick , unemployed e.t.c
So Allah didn't make it compulsory, i.e. something to be forced but you're making it so?
The quran has rules regulations for the 1400 years ago and some still applicable today but many of these need improving but not all of them.
Please tell us
a. what needs 'improving'.
b. by what measure , what is your yardstick that it will be 'improved'.punishment for changing the will - , where are you based , its in all the advanced countries to my knowledge.
And the laws to prevent people suffering and going naked are good don't you think? to me these laws are from
God .again i don't take my laws as idols i believe they may be changed according to people needs through salaat/counsel.
most of the laws in the quran need to be upgraded as most of them are voluntary , and the advanced nations have shown -it doesn't work as well as enforced laws and that is the reason all countries have started to adopt the enforcement stratagies.
Salaams.
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Peace simple. A magnificent couple of posts... bravo You are the kind of reformer/thinker that islam needs...keep up the good work,dont be put off by awkward questions...
Note how christianity and judaism have gone through their reformation and renaissanse, and came up with the 'successful' systems of 'secular humanism',democracy and,universal human rights combined with economic prosperity...(although i admit there are still issues and problems to be addressed and refined in these systems.) Most muslims in the world want to come to these western democracies to escape poverty and lack of liberty,and bring up families in a relatively 'peaceful' atmosphere with more opportunities...Mquran; parts of your post seem to be encouraging secularism,or the division of personal aspects of religion as against public consequences...
Sc; you are telling me that universal human rights are guaranteed by the quran regardless if those humans are classified as kafirs or mushriks and dirty/destined for hell by the very same book.....? Good luck with that interpretation... -
Sc; you are telling me that universal human rights are guaranteed by the quran regardless if those humans are classified as kafirs or mushriks and dirty/destined for hell by the very same book.....? Good luck with that interpretation...
Can you quote the problematic verses in a new thread with your conclusions? Thanks.
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Openmind;I dont believe the quran is 100% truth,although i believe it contains some truths.
Well, that's not what I asked. I asked if you believe it to be all from God? Or none of it? Or some of it? If some of it; out of curiosity, how do you figure? Do you pick and choose which parts you like? Or.. do you actually have evidence?
Peace.
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Simple punishment for changing the will - , where are you based , its in all the advanced countries to my knowledge.
My question was How do you reckon the punishing of a person for changing the will is a UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLE?
Just because 'advanced countries' do it?
And the laws to prevent people suffering and going naked are good don't you think? to me these laws are from
God .To me, the only laws from Allah are in al-quraan. In al-quraan, there's an explicit command to fight against zulm or oppression. So by al-quraan, fighting against suffering is a good thing.
again i don't take my laws as idols i believe they may be changed according to people needs through salaat/counsel.
As long as they don't go over al-quraan, sure. Punishing people for not doing as-siyaam is wrong.
Will you kill people who leave Islam? Why or why not?
most of the laws in the quran need to be upgraded as most of them are voluntary , and the advanced nations have shown -it doesn't work as well as enforced laws and that is the reason all countries have started to adopt the enforcement stratagies.
Ah I see. So that's why we have people who pay taxes because they HAVE to rather than from the desire that their money will help the less fortunate. Instead of having a society filled with imaan, we have a society like an animal, forced to follow the whip. I'd rather have a believing society any day.