Translation of `Jinn`
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peace
on this related subject see also this thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6081.msg93470#msg93470
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I take this verse as a metaphor. We can see in the literal sense that man has the ability to exit the atmosphere, but that is not mentioned. It is the inner world that takes us to the "heights" of knowledge, not the external illusory world.
Peace
hmmmm, are you sure about the above?
just in case you are not sure, it was actually stated in the Quran that the Humans along with the Jinns may travel outer space, but the trick is, they need an awsome power to do that
O assembly of the jinn and the men! If you are able to pass through the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass through; you cannot pass through but with power.
(33)
Salam
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peace
on this related subject see also this thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6081.msg93470#msg93470
And this one
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg63992#msg63992 -
5533 O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.
5534 Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?
5535 You get bombarded with projectiles of fire and metal, and you cannot win.Notice that jinn and humans are mentioned together. The challenge is to penetrate the heavens - ie. leave the Earth's atmosphere which cannot be done. "Jinn" are human or an aspect of humans and the usages within the reading must be contextual; there doesn't seem to be a one meaning fits all for this particular concept.
Peace.
Peace
I missed what you are trying to say bro, is it the same like what I just added above?, or you are saying 5533 is saying the the Ins and Jinn can not leave the earth atmosphere?
Salam
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg63992#msg63992
Peace brother
In the above url, are you positive that this is a firm understanding by you that the Jinns are the Human Leaders or you have changed this view since then?, please let me know because if this is the case then I will have a few questions if you don't mind explaining, thanks
Salam
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg63992#msg63992
Peace brother
In the above url, are you positive that this is a firm understanding by you that the Jinns are the Human Leaders or you have changed this view since then?, please let me know because if this is the case then I will have a few questions if you don't mind explaining, thanks
Salam
This is still my current understanding, whereas another translation may fit better in some verses.
Feel free to ask me questions in this thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.0Peace
PS I am glad you are now opening the links to other threads
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This is still my current understanding, whereas another translation may fit better in some verses.
Feel free to ask me questions in this thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.0Peace
PS I am glad you are now opening the links to other threads
Thanks bro
I will start with this but I have many, now there will be no emotional refutes we only need logical Quran refutes
you say Jinns means "the human leaders", or "The humans who have power and authority", while Ins means "Ordinary human", or "A Human with no power or Aurhority"
Would that verse then is only talking to the ordinary humans and not to their leaders in power (The Jinns)?
O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you) for Allah ever watches over you.
(1)
But please bro don't try and use this argument
Nas <> Ins
because 500% Nas = Ins
I have plenty or these sort of questions bro, and btw I only read previous posts for those whom I'm interested to open a dialogue with
Salam
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Peace JM
Here is another serious one bro, in the following verses we read
26 We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;
27 And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.(26)
(27)Two serious questions must be raised by the above verses
- were the human leaders created differently from the ordinary humans? sounds like two different races to me
- were the human leaders created BEFORE the ordinary humans?
see bro, that whole concept started to fall over
I still have more but I will need a bit of a break please
Cheers
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Peace,
I do agree that the term jinn also implies chiefs but this is just one meaning. I don't believe jinn refers to one thing in particulair. Jinn means something hidden/concealed/rarely seen. It is like the term walking being, does this refer to humans alone? Defenitly not. Millions of species fall under this term. It is not a title of one species as human or spider, it is a description of an attribute anything that walks. The same applies for the term jinnhidden/concealed/rarely seen things/beings. This is not a title refering to one species. It refers to anything that is concealed/rarely seen that fits the context of the verses where they are mentioned. To believe jinns can only refer to one thing, leaders or mythological invisible beings etc., is the same as saying walking beings can only refer to humans. Jinn is not a title but a description of an attribute which encompasses many things.
Peace
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Peace,
I do agree that the term jinn also implies chiefs but this is just one meaning. I don't believe jinn refers to one thing in particulair. Jinn means something hidden/concealed/rarely seen. It is like the term walking being, does this refer to humans alone? Defenitly not. Millions of species fall under this term. It is not a title of one species as human or spider, it is a description of an attribute anything that walks. The same applies for the term jinnhidden/concealed/rarely seen things/beings. This is not a title refering to one species. It refers to anything that is concealed/rarely seen that fits the context of the verses where they are mentioned. To believe jinns can only refer to one thing, leaders or mythological invisible beings etc., is the same as saying walking beings can only refer to humans. Jinn is not a title but a description of an attribute which encompasses many things.
Peace
Peace bro
is this is just your opinion or you reckon that is what Allah meant by Jinn?, if it is the later, please provide evidences from the Quran, other than that you are really contributing very well to the conjectures
Cheers
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peace,
I base this on the meaning of the word jinn and on the Quran. I will post my article later....
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peace,
I base this on the meaning of the word jinn and on the Quran. I will post my article later....
Thakns bro
but please forget what the word means, or we will find what it means from the Quran ONLY, any meaning from any english dictionery will not be admissable, we are discussing the arabic quran as you know
I will be waiting for your quran based article and if it is a long one i will break my reply in sections
Salam
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and btw bro, any arabic dictionery can't be admissable as well for two reasons
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why we can trust an arabic translator and we can't trust an arabic traditionalist?, sounds discrimination to me
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how we can verify that the arabic meaning is right from the many listed in those arabic dictioneries?
Therefore we can only use the Arabic Quran to find the meaning of Jinns, sounds reasonable to me, i hope it does to you
Salam
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Peace,
I have read the posts in this thread and would just like to comment on the posts who argue that
Jinnare humans or emotions or the such...Did we not read in the Scripture that humans are created from clay/mud while Jinn were created before from flames of fire?
This simple fact leaves no room for these discussions that we & the jinn can be one in the same.
They are an older being, while we are a younger one.
Also, on the subject of translating as
hidden, that does not work or make sence in some verses, while at the same time we are told that Jinn are physical with hearts, eyes, ears, and that they were taken as partners or gods by some humans.Jinn are perhaps able to take on human form which explains how humans would worship them or set them-up as partners...It would also explain the issue of us not seeing them (i.e. there true form) while they can see us.
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Ahmed,
I have replied to your questions in the following thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.15Peace
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Peace Layth,
Did we not read in the Scripture that humans are created from clay/mud while Jinn were created before from flames of fire?
This simple fact leaves no room for these discussions that we & the jinn can be one in the same.
I disagree. If jinn can be understood as "hidden", and in this context, the hidden part of man, ie, the soul, then surely the soul could have existed before the clay/mud/physical form. In the "Jinn a new insight " thread, Oben explains this much better.
Jinn are perhaps able to take on human form which explains how humans would worship them or set them-up as partners...It would also explain the issue of us not seeing them (i.e. there true form) while they can see us.
With all due respect, you could just as easily say that the jinn are a race of aliens, who received alien messengers, who believe in one God, etc, and who actually visited mankind in generations past, leading mankind to worship them as partners to God.
hmmm...that actually seems plausible -\
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
With all due respect, you could just as easily say that the jinn are a race of aliens, who received alien messengers, who believe in one God, etc, and who actually visited mankind in generations past, leading mankind to worship them as partners to God.
hmmm...that actually seems plausible
It is ineed plausible...The sightings of ufo`s and the stories of aliens may very well be the Jinn. The only difference is that people believe they are from outerspace, while the Scripture tells us they are residents of this planet.
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peace tay
If jinn can be understood as "hidden", and in this context, the hidden part of man, ie, the soul, then surely the soul could have existed before the clay/mud/physical form.
With all due respect ), There is a lot of extra-ordinary interpretations to get that result. I.E. Never does jinn mean 'hidden side of man'. Or 'the soul'. Believe me I have pondered this argument but a lot of verses to me would make no sense (Why are projectiles necessary against humans AND souls etc). Moreover, Why wouldn't God just tell us clearly that these jinns are our hidden sides or our souls. Is God shy? Is he afraid? The purpose of allegories is to help us understand. Not to cause mass confusion IMHO.
With all due respect, you could just as easily say that the jinn are a race of aliens, who received alien messengers, who believe in one God, etc, and who actually visited mankind in generations past, leading mankind to worship them as partners to God.
I know it's unrealistic to our human minds, but anything we are not aware(or cant imagine) of is implausible. But we haven't even explored this whole universe, none of us know that for sure.
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Peace Imran,
There is a lot of extra-ordinary interpretations to get that result. I.E. Never does jinn mean 'hidden side of man'. Or 'the soul'. Believe me I have pondered this argument
Brother, there is a lot of extra-ordinary interpretations to get any result - invisible beings, aliens, mythical creatures, etc. I have pondered all the arguments, and what I've come to is one definition cannot fit all the contexts. So, here, I'm not saying that it means "hidden side of man". I'm saying it could mean "hidden", and we must look at the context to understand what "hidden" entity/energy is being described.
a lot of verses to me would make no sense (Why are projectiles necessary against humans AND souls etc).
Precisely, which is why one definition does not fit all the contexts.
Moreover, Why wouldn't God just tell us clearly that these jinns are our hidden sides or our souls. Is God shy? Is he afraid?
In the same tone, why would God tell us that these creatures are made of fire, when we can see fire, but we can't see the creatures? Why would He tell us that men worshipped them, when we have no evidence of these creatures? No names, no bones. Is God a trickster?
The purpose of allegories is to help us understand. Not to cause mass confusion IMHO.
Tell me, how does believing in an invisible creature help you understand? Unfortunately, purpose and outcome are 2 different things. Here we are, confused. Perhaps confusion was the purpose.
I know it's unrealistic to our human minds, but anything we are not aware(or cant imagine) of is implausible. But we haven't even explored this whole universe, none of us know that for sure.
Like I said, it's plausible, not implausible.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
Layth as well as several others have focussed the argument of 'jinn' not being humans to 1526-27.
The problem is that they are assuming that 'jinn' is a separate "race" or being. Noone has established this assumption nor is any evidence presented. This is somewhat like the falsehood that traditionalists believe - that "angels" are made of light. This is pure conjecture.
Layth argues that because the two things are not made of the same thing that they represent different beings. This is a very simplistic view. Your skull and bones are made of hydroxy-apatite or what in the prophet's language would have been "rock" and yet you are also made of water. Does this mean that we are not the one being?
But let's leave these analogies and examine our common reference point for evidence. I believe the following verse puts to rest any doubt and in one stroke demolishes all the past belief that there are mythical beings that traditionalist imaginations have created.
2130 Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?
Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
If you believe that "jinn" are living things then 2130 means they must be made of water. This is a bald fact. An inescapable reality.
Therefore a "jinn" is not a separate type of mythical being. It is merely an aspect of us.
Compare to...
2957 Every "nafs" will taste death, then to us you will be ultimately returned.
Kullu nafsin tha-iqatu almawti thumma ilayna turjaAAoona
Going with the false logic of the mythical jinn believers then this verse would prove that there is yet another type of 'being' called a "nafs".
The truth as we know in that case is that a "nafs" is within us. So is the "jinn".
Regards.
