Can you PROVE that God's previous scriptures have been corrupted?
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you can try to explain why you suspect it .
the messenger recite the verses of Allah . you can read that many in places in the Koran . where are the verses of Allah ? what are the purified pages ?
the messenger does not recite the kitab in 1713 , but every man will read his book himself
1714 Read your kitab/book! It is enough for you that you are aware of yourself today.
I give you the example in 1713 to make it clear that the word Kitab can mean many things depending on the context in which the word occurs. So for 1713, we can translate Kitab as record.
FM translation
173 And We have attached to every person's neck his deeds, and We bring forth for him a record on the Day of Resurrection which he will find on display.That is why I suspect in 983 Kitab should be understood accordingly (by taking into consideration the context). This is how some scholars translate them
Asad translation
983 wherein there are ordinances of ever-true soundness and clarity.Khalifa translation
983 In them there are valuable teachings.Shakir translation
983 Wherein are all the right ordinances.2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers"; and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."
And then somehow the corruption took place.
who can corrupt the words of Allah ?! no one.
Please don't play a word game. You know what I mean by corruption, which is the deviation from the true teaching. Quran is not corrupted and no one can change the words of Allah but still due to hadiths, the corruption takes place. And if you play a word game that the words of Allah is the written quran, I can also play a word game that somebody can "corrupt" the words of Allah by burning the mushaf. I hope you understand what I mean.
Wassalam,
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you can try to explain why you suspect it .
the messenger recite the verses of Allah . you can read that many in places in the Koran . where are the verses of Allah ? what are the purified pages ?
the messenger does not recite the kitab in 1713 , but every man will read his book himself
1714 Read your kitab/book! It is enough for you that you are aware of yourself today.
I give you the example in 1713 to make it clear that the word Kitab can mean many things depending on the context in which the word occurs. So for 1713, we can translate Kitab as record.
FM translation
173 And We have attached to every person's neck his deeds, and We bring forth for him a record on the Day of Resurrection which he will find on display.That is why I suspect in 983 Kitab should be understood accordingly (by taking into consideration the context). This is how some scholars translate them
Asad translation
983 wherein there are ordinances of ever-true soundness and clarity.Khalifa translation
983 In them there are valuable teachings.Shakir translation
983 Wherein are all the right ordinances.2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers"; and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."
you were asking about the "kutub" in 2285 , and i showed in 981-3 you where the kutub are . whats the problem now ?
also read these verses3443 And when Our bayyinah/clear ayat/signs/verses are recited over them, they say what is this except a man who intends to oppose you about what your ancestors served . And they say "What is this except a falsehood invented . And those who for the truth say when it comes to them ,if this is (nothing) except a clear magic .
3444 And We have not given them kutub/books/writings from which they take lessons. And before you We have not sent towards them from the warner .
the kutub they are studying(like Torah,Gospel,Hadith etc) are not given by Allah . he only gave the kutub that are in the "purified pages", the verses which the messenger recites (981-3) .
And then somehow the corruption took place.
who can corrupt the words of Allah ?! no one.
Please don't play a word game. You know what I mean by corruption, which is the deviation from the true teaching.
i m not playing any word game . i dont know what u mean by corruption . so what do u meanthat "taurat somehow got corrupted" over time . and back it with the verses of the Koran .
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Salaam saladin,
i dont believe it . but i have thinking on it . i have already clearified this a number of times )
OK bro, I see.
Some time back I also had thinking almost similar to yours when I first came to this verse
667 For every prophecy is a term, and you will come to know (it).
But after some readings, I encountered many unresolved problems if I maintain that the Scripture sent to previous prophets is exactly the same ARABIC quran we read nowadays. Well, just take my questions here as those many unresolved problems bro )
there is also a lecture about "Book of Musa" on www.iipc.tv . checkitout .
Bro, could you suggest to brother Shaikh to let the videos be downloadable. I mean it is difficult for me to learn online long duration videos. It is much easier to download the videos first, and then learn it later when I have time. If I have offline video, I can play whenever I like. Just a suggestion.
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there is also a lecture about "Book of Musa" on www.iipc.tv . checkitout .
Bro, could you suggest to brother Shaikh to let the videos be downloadable. I mean it is difficult for me to learn online long duration videos. It is much easier to download the videos first, and then learn it later when I have time. If I have offline video, I can play whenever I like. Just a suggestion.
ok , i will suggest it to them when i meet them . in the meantime u can post the suggestion on their forum . others who want the videos to be downloadable should also post it on their forum , i think .
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i m not playing any word game . i dont know what u mean by corruption . so what do u meanthat "taurat somehow got corrupted" over time . and back it with the verses of the Koran.
In order for the corruption to take place, the Scripture doesn't necessarily get corrupted. This is obsevable nowadays where we have uncorrupted Scripture yet the corruption takes place such as stoning, killing "apostates", declaring music as HARAM, the belief that Jesus will return, etc.
This is also the case with the Scripture for children of Israel.
393 All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel had forbidden to himself, before the Taurat was revealed. Say Bring then the Taurat and read it, if you are truthful.
From 393, we can understand that if those children of Israel bring the Torah, they will see that they are not truthful. This is only possible if the Torah at that time exposes their corruption otherwise the children of Israel would simply bring the Torah and recite it in front of Muhammad.
This is the same as the case with sunni and shia who practice STONING. The scripture doesn't mention STONING for adulterers. So we can challenge sunni and shia to bring Scripture and read it to support their corruption (STONING) if they are truthful.
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i m not playing any word game . i dont know what u mean by corruption . so what do u meanthat "taurat somehow got corrupted" over time . and back it with the verses of the Koran.
In order for the corruption to take place, the Scripture doesn't necessarily get corrupted.
in order for corruption to take place where ? if corruption takes places in the taurat , only then will the taurat be corrupted .
This is obsevable nowadays where we have uncorrupted Scripture yet the corruption takes place such as stoning, killing "apostates", declaring music as HARAM, the belief that Jesus will return, etc.
This is also the case with the Scripture for children of Israel.
393 All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel had forbidden to himself, before the Taurat was revealed. Say Bring then the Taurat and read it, if you are truthful.
From 393, we can understand that if those children of Israel bring the Torah, they will see that they are not truthful. This is only possible if the Torah at that time exposes their corruption otherwise the children of Israel would simply bring the Torah and recite it in front of Muhammad.
This is the same as the case with sunni and shia who practice STONING. The scripture doesn't mention STONING for adulterers. So we can challenge sunni and shia to bring Scripture and read it to support their corruption (STONING) if they are truthful.
your example is only showing that the taurat is not corrupted , even if its "followers" are corrupted .
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If Taurah is still gen uine Allah did not necessarily reveal Injeel
If Injeel is still genuine Allah did not necessarily reveal Al Quran.The tought of Taurat, Injeel and al Quran is similar i.e. diinul Islam. Because the Ahl Kitab didn't want to believe new prophets sent by Allah so they insist to hold their own Kitab by currupting some verses especially about nubuwah of the coming of next prophet. Al Quran is not able to be corrupted, but the tafseer has been corrupted badly.
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your example is only showing that the taurat is not corrupted , even if its "followers" are corrupted .
My example was not intended to prove that previous scriptures were corrupted. And btw, I believe that previous scriptures are partially preserved. I cannot tell how preserved or how corrupted the previous scriptures are. My contention is that Quran is sent to confirm what already present (54 and to be confirmed something must exist otherwise it cannot be confirmed.
548 And unto thee have We vouchsafed this divine writ, setting forth the truth, confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and determining what is true therein.' Judge, then, between the followers of earlier revelation in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high," and do not follow their errant views, forsaking the truth that has come unto thee. Unto every one of you have We appointed a law and way of life.` And if God had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community but in order to test you by means of what He has vouchsafed unto, you.b' Vie, then, with one another in doing good works! Unto God you all must return; and then He will make you truly understand all that on which you were wont to differ.
Please read this also
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5941.msg91117#msg91117 -
The tought of Taurat, Injeel and al Quran is similar i.e. diinul Islam. Because the Ahl Kitab didn't want to believe new prophets sent by Allah so they insist to hold their own Kitab by currupting some verses especially about nubuwah of the coming of next prophet.
I agree with brother lovelymoslems regarding that. That is observable in the present version of Bible.
I will recall what bro AB wrote previously (I don't know exactly which verses though)
Remember that Allah told us that we will read the name Ahmad in the Tourat, this is indeed true with the current corrupt version of it
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your example is only showing that the taurat is not corrupted , even if its "followers" are corrupted .
My example was not intended to prove that previous scriptures were corrupted.
what was the intention then ?
And btw, I believe that previous scriptures are partially preserved. I cannot tell how preserved or how corrupted the previous scriptures are.
ok . thats your belief .
My contention is that Quran is sent to confirm what already present (54 and to be confirmed something must exist otherwise it cannot be confirmed.
verse 548 uses the word "al kitab", not "Quran" .
548 And unto thee have We vouchsafed this divine writ, setting forth the truth, confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and determining what is true therein.' ...
where is "earlier revelations" in 548 ?
... 548
548 And We have revealed to you Al-Kitab/The Book with the truth , confirming to what is between his hands from Al-Kitab/The Book ,...
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what was the intention then ?
To negate your understanding that all prophets received exactly the SAME ARABIC quran we read nowadays.
My contention is that Quran is sent to confirm what already present (54 and to be confirmed something must exist otherwise it cannot be confirmed.
verse 548 uses the word "al kitab", not "Quran" .
True bro
548 And unto thee have We vouchsafed this divine writ, setting forth the truth, confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and determining what is true therein.' ...
where is "earlier revelations" in 548 ?
... 548
548 And We have revealed to you Al-Kitab/The Book with the truth , confirming to what is between his hands from Al-Kitab/The Book ,...
So to which Kitab does the first and second Kitab in 548 refer?
How about this?
291 And if it is said to them "Believe in what God has sent down;" they Say "We believe only in what was sent down to us," and they reject what came after it, while it is the truth authenticating what is with them. Say "Why then did you kill God's prophets if you were believers?"Wassalam,
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what was the intention then ?
To negate your understanding that all prophets received exactly the SAME ARABIC quran we read nowadays.
did it negate that understanding ? if so , how ?
also please quote where i said that "all prophets received exactly the SAME ARABIC quran we read nowadays" .
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what was the intention then ?
To negate your understanding that all prophets received exactly the SAME ARABIC quran we read nowadays.
did it negate that understanding ? if so , how ?
Because at least Allah has sent Torah.
also please quote where i said that "all prophets received exactly the SAME ARABIC quran we read nowadays".
You have thought on that understanding and you are still studying it, right?
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what was the intention then ?
To negate your understanding that all prophets received exactly the SAME ARABIC quran we read nowadays.
did it negate that understanding ? if so , how ?
Because at least Allah has sent Torah.
the taurat , yes . not the OT of the jews .
also please quote where i said that "all prophets received exactly the SAME ARABIC quran we read nowadays".
You have thought on that understanding and you are still studying it, right?
yes , i m studying what "al kitab" is . but i was not discussing "al kitab" here . i was discussing the existence of something you call "previous scriptures" .
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the taurat , yes . not the OT of the jews .
But it WAS, or what do you think?
yes , i m studying what "al kitab" is . but i was not discussing "al kitab" here . i was discussing the existence of something you call "previous scriptures" .
So what do you call them?
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the taurat , yes . not the OT of the jews .
But it WAS, or what do you think?
no, it wasnt . i have read some verses of OT in Shaikh's booklets . OT looks like the work of a very evil person to me . on the other hand , Koran doesnt say that the taurat is corrupted or anything . but it commands to uphold the taurat . so the taurat should notbe corrupted . the OT never was the taurat .
yes , i m studying what "al kitab" is . but i was not discussing "al kitab" here . i was discussing the existence of something you call "previous scriptures" .
So what do you call them?
there is no such thing . (464)
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Salaam saladin,
no, it wasnt . i have read some verses of OT in Shaikh's booklets . looks like the work of a very evil person to me . on the other hand , Koran doesnt say that the taurat is corrupted or anything . but it commands to uphold the taurat . so the taurat should notbe corrupted . the OT never was the taurat .
If somebody who knows nothing about Islam, and then he read this hadith below.
Shahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3371
Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him) 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said Yes, and added We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.
What do you think his opinion regarding prophet Muhammad will be? Of course he will think that Muhammad is rapist!
The thing is don't just read what your mullah gave you. Read by yourself just like you read quran with open mind. I am not defending jews or christians here, I just want to be objective and not biased.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5941.msg91117#msg91117
So what do you call them?
there is no such thing . (464)Bro ...I think it is better for me to let you study and research the topic first and then come back here in this forum after you make your mind. Because it seems to me that on one side you deny that Allah has sent any other scripture except ARABIC QURAN we read nowadays but on the other side you are not prepared to explain what Torah is and what Injeel is, etc.
As I said, I had the same thought like you some time back but after some readings I find out that there are some unresolved problems if I maintain that all prophets received exactly the same arabic quran. OK bro, happy researching! )
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Salaam saladin,
no, it wasnt . i have read some verses of OT in Shaikh's booklets . looks like the work of a very evil person to me . on the other hand , Koran doesnt say that the taurat is corrupted or anything . but it commands to uphold the taurat . so the taurat should notbe corrupted . the OT never was the taurat .
If somebody who knows nothing about Islam, and then he read this hadith below.
Shahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3371
Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him) 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said Yes, and added We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.
What do you think his opinion regarding prophet Muhammad will be? Of course he will think that Muhammad is rapist!
i think it is no different than the bible . what has this got to do with the topic?
So what do you call them?
there is no such thing . (464)Bro ...I think it is better for me to let you study and research the topic first and then come back here in this forum after you make your mind. Because it seems to me that on one side you deny that Allah has sent any other scripture except ARABIC QURAN we read nowadays but on the other side you are not prepared to explain what Torah is and what Injeel is, etc.
whatever taurat and injeel is, there is no indication in the Koran that they are corrupted . that is only something which you are insisting on .
i m already researching . you should also be . you havent made up your mind either , because sometimes you say al kitab is the Koran . then u say al kitab is "previous scriptures" , then u say that taurat and injeel are "previous scriptures" which are corrupted ...
peace.
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Salaam saladin,
whatever taurat and injeel is, there is no indication in the Koran that they are corrupted . that is only something which you are insisting on .
I agree with what your statement above (somebody please bring some verses if I miss them). So I really don't understand why you say I insist that according to quran, taurat and injeel are corrupted. I conclude that Bible is corrupted from my own reading and not from quran. This is the reason why I believe previous scriptures are partially preserved.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5941.msg91117#msg91117
i m already researching . you should also be . you havent made up your mind either , because sometimes you say al kitab is the Koran . then u say al kitab is "previous scriptures" , then u say that taurat and injeel are "previous scriptures" which are corrupted ... )
OK my pleasure ...btw, I understand the word Kitab from the context so don't be too surprised that "sometimes" I say A, B, C, etc )
Wassalam,