Quran and rationalism
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Salamun 'alaikum brother JM,
When the unbelievers were requesting to Muhammad to produce this kind of miracles, God refused.
Why would he have let Moses use miracles, while refusing it to Muhammad ?See , , , , , , , , , , , ,
I believe the answer of your question can be found in these verses.
2106 When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
2107 Do you not recognize the fact that GOD possesses the kingship of the heavens and the earth; that you have none besides GOD as your Lord and Master?
2108 Do you wish to demand of your messenger what was demanded of Moses in the past? Anyone who chooses disbelief, instead of belief, has truly strayed off the right path.IMHO, human beings are expected to evaluate the Message by way of reason, and not by way of miracles and supernatural phenomena.
I don't know what you believe guys but I feel quran is really miracle and divine Book. Without the miracle, why should human beings be expected to evaluate its message or be expected to obey messengers such as Jesus, Moses, etc in the past? I mean, if I am not convinced that a Book is from Allah or a person is the messenger of Allah, then why should I even bother to learn from the Book or to obey the person?
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Peace
Dear All
Even though Muhammad did not do any miracles, in the hadith (which I do not agree with) it still says he did.
Even though he did not perform miracles, they still (hadithists) tried to turn him to more than he is.
We humans are never happy, miracles, no miracles, if we are bent on disbelief, we will find zillion excuses either not to believe, or associate partners with God.
I am very content at the Quran being the greatest miracle that ever was, and that if Allah makes us enlightened enough in its understanding, we will be able to solve all the problems we are faced with, and beyond. We just need to be open to His guidance. And by the way I came to this site as a result of a prayer I made a few years ago asking God to guide me as I want to get closer to the Real Truth.
Allah knows best.
Salam
Nabster -
Peace
prashant_kumar you made excellent comments, and I can relate to them as I studied quantum physics. In fact this reminds me that there is a specific ayat in the Quran that says that when we die, we will be cut out from "the causes" (asbab in arabic) (maybe causes/events binding this universe). Thank you you brought me a bowl of fresh air in undestanding.
Peace
Nabster -
One of the things I still need to ponder much is this 'need for miracles' so prevalent among people. The need for miracles forms the basis of myths and religions, and miracles or supposed documentation of miracles are often put forth as proof of the Unseen. What is it in the human mind that makes it longs for miracles and extraordinary happenings? Why aren't we content with regularities and natural laws?
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Salaam bro Andya,
Why aren't we content with regularities and natural laws?
I do. Because I can try to learn them and appreciate them after fully-understanding them. At least that's how I view it.
=adley=
PS Bro, you might want to fix the text in your avatar. ;D
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Peace JM,
Excellent thread. I agree with your approach. One of the many things that used to bother me about believing in the literal/supernatural text was the fact that these events happened so long ago, when the world was much smaller, but no less or more violent/oppressive than today. Pharoah was stopped dead in his tracks for challenging God's messenger but Mussolini and Stalin and Hitler and Milosevic got free passes to execute and torture millions.
Couldn't this world use a healer like Jesus walking around and striking aids from existence and healing the blind and feeding the millions of starving children with the flick of his wrist?
In my view, God lets these things happen because He always let these things happen, otherwise it would be completely imbalanced. The message is that we need to emulate these charachters to change the world, not to believe that they changed the world with supernatural feats but we're stuck here with mortal abilities.
But that's just me.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
How are we going to be raised from the dead then, is this part of the natural laws? I believe the natural laws are a minute restriction of much higher laws to which the jinns have access to at a higher level, and the angels to an even higher level. The highest Level being with the Almighty. All will be made clear when we die. This is why it is a proof of faith that Allah asks from us, if we accept Him as our Maker. Maybe they are not miracles at all, but abilities we have not yet achieved... After all He talks to us about what He can do, which is a great privilege in itself. Most of us do not respect Allah the way He should be respected as He extolls us in the Quran.
We already perform feats that will look as miracles to people of old with all the technologies we managed, with Allah's leave, to develop.
Nabster -
Peace Nabster, JM, all,
How are we going to be raised from the dead then, is this part of the natural laws?
The Qur'an tells us that we die every night. There is no "raising" per se, but a release of the soul from the clutches of the physical realm.
I believe the natural laws are a minute restriction of much higher laws to which the jinns have access to at a higher level, and the angels to an even higher level. The highest Level being with the Almighty.
I understand your perspective but I can't agree, based on 2 things First, why would the 2 beings that possess free-will be at the lower levels. And second, how can the malaikat exist at the level closest to God yet still be subservient to man? Meanwhile, jinn are not subservient but deceivers, in some cases. At any rate, perhaps instead of a hierarchy, your understanding would work better as a parallel.
All will be made clear when we die.
Certainly.
This is why it is a proof of faith that Allah asks from us, if we accept Him as our Maker.
I don't see how your explanation answers this question.
Maybe they are not miracles at all, but abilities we have not yet achieved...
It's possible.
Most of us do not respect Allah the way He should be respected as He extolls us in the Quran.
OK.
We already perform feats that will look as miracles to people of old with all the technologies we managed, with Allah's leave, to develop.
I agree.
JM, I just wanted to reply to you one of your thoughts that I overlooked. You stated
There will never be agreements between these 2 kinds of people unless they adopt the same hermeneutical approach.
I've come to the realization that agreement may simply not be possible, and perhaps, should not even be the goal. Understanding each other is what is important.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
What I find amazing, really amazing, is that in the Quaran Allah clearly says in plain Arabic that He allowed some of His Prophets to perform miracles by His leave, that He states the distinction between the Believers and Unbelievers, the latter looking at miracles as just plain magic, and Allah saying that whatever miracles performed, they will still not believe, and yet there are some people in this forum who cannot or do not want to accept Allah's own words. Isn't this kufr or what?
Nabster -
Peace
What I find amazing, really amazing, is that in the Quaran Allah clearly says in plain Arabic that He allowed some of His Prophets to perform miracles by His leave, that He states the distinction between the Believers and Unbelievers, the latter looking at miracles as just plain magic, and Allah saying that whatever miracles performed, they will still not believe, and yet there are some people in this forum who cannot or do not want to accept Allah's own words. Isn't this kufr or what?
NabsterEXACTLY
Peace bro
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Peace
What I find amazing, really amazing, is that in the Quaran Allah clearly says in plain Arabic that He allowed some of His Prophets to perform miracles by His leave, that He states the distinction between the Believers and Unbelievers, the latter looking at miracles as just plain magic, and Allah saying that whatever miracles performed, they will still not believe, and yet there are some people in this forum who cannot or do not want to accept Allah's own words. Isn't this kufr or what?
NabsterPeace bro
The Quran put it in an excellent way
And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say This is naught but the stories of the ancients.
(25)
Salam
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Salam again AhmedBahgat
Thank you for the evidence, I am really glad you are around...
Take care
Peace
Nabster -
Peace
How are we going to be raised from the dead then, is this part of the natural laws? I believe the natural laws are a minute restriction of much higher laws to which the jinns have access to at a higher level, and the angels to an even higher level. The highest Level being with the Almighty. All will be made clear when we die. This is why it is a proof of faith that Allah asks from us, if we accept Him as our Maker. Maybe they are not miracles at all, but abilities we have not yet achieved... After all He talks to us about what He can do, which is a great privilege in itself. Most of us do not respect Allah the way He should be respected as He extolls us in the Quran.
We already perform feats that will look as miracles to people of old with all the technologies we managed, with Allah's leave, to develop.
NabsterPeace,
Nabster, there has been found evidences of resurrection in laws of nature. I also have studied higher physics.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0
I believe it is in the middle, some things we don't know now that it is possible without loosing the physical laws, and some 'miracles' in the wrong are not miracles but taken out of context. But when we find out that certain things are possible, while we thought it was not, then it is not a miracle anymore he? Then again it falls under normal physics, the only difference is that it is now an unknown territory. I'm really carefull not to dismiss everything, but also not to accpet everything.
Peace
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Peace
arnoldyasin, you are right, the word miracle is not so good, i think Sign is better.
Of course with technology we might be able to do a lot as we already do.
There is a verse in the Quran that says that if we unravell the secrets of this Quran, we might be able, by Allah's leave, to raise the dead.
But surely the Creator can provide a Sign without any explanation, it is His universe after all.
And I do not believe in those "biblical" days they had the technologies which we don't yet have.
And let us not forget that everything in us and around us, as believers is a sign from Allah.
The Unbelievers whose heart have hardened cannot or refuse to appreciate that.
Salam
Nabster -
Peace Nabster,
You stated
that He states the distinction between the Believers and Unbelievers, the latter looking at miracles as just plain magic,
OK, so the disbelievers are ones who saw miracles and called it magic.
yet there are some people in this forum who cannot or do not want to accept Allah's own words. Isn't this kufr or what?
Possibly. Please point out who saw miracles and called them magic, and we'll get to the bottom of this.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Brother Tay
I refer you to the thread on the translation of Jinn, which got pretty heated up at one stage.
Salam
Nabster -
Peace,
622-25
And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners "Where are your partners whom you used to claim?"
Then, their only excuse was to Say "By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!"
See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.
And from them are those who listen to you; and We have made covers over their hearts to prevent them from understanding it, and a deafness in their ears; and if they see every sign they will not believe; even when they come to you they argue, those who reject Say "This is nothing but the tales from the past!"Peace,
Tay -
The Quran put it in an excellent way
And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say This is naught but the stories of the ancients.
Peace,
625 can be understood to mean those who actually take the metaphors in the verses to be literal.
Why?
Because if you argue that the events such as the splitting of the sea etc are real events then you make the metaphor which should be applicable in your own life nothing but an ancient story. The metaphor allows you to benefit from it, whereas insisting that it is an event gives you no benefit.
Note that the God does not shy away from citing metaphors. These are NOT ancient stories when treated as metaphors, but you are unwittingly holding to that very position that makes them nothing but ancient tales.
Regards.