Quran and rationalism
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One of the things I still need to ponder much is this 'need for miracles' so prevalent among people. The need for miracles forms the basis of myths and religions, and miracles or supposed documentation of miracles are often put forth as proof of the Unseen. What is it in the human mind that makes it longs for miracles and extraordinary happenings? Why aren't we content with regularities and natural laws?
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Salaam bro Andya,
Why aren't we content with regularities and natural laws?
I do. Because I can try to learn them and appreciate them after fully-understanding them. At least that's how I view it.
=adley=
PS Bro, you might want to fix the text in your avatar. ;D
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Peace JM,
Excellent thread. I agree with your approach. One of the many things that used to bother me about believing in the literal/supernatural text was the fact that these events happened so long ago, when the world was much smaller, but no less or more violent/oppressive than today. Pharoah was stopped dead in his tracks for challenging God's messenger but Mussolini and Stalin and Hitler and Milosevic got free passes to execute and torture millions.
Couldn't this world use a healer like Jesus walking around and striking aids from existence and healing the blind and feeding the millions of starving children with the flick of his wrist?
In my view, God lets these things happen because He always let these things happen, otherwise it would be completely imbalanced. The message is that we need to emulate these charachters to change the world, not to believe that they changed the world with supernatural feats but we're stuck here with mortal abilities.
But that's just me.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
How are we going to be raised from the dead then, is this part of the natural laws? I believe the natural laws are a minute restriction of much higher laws to which the jinns have access to at a higher level, and the angels to an even higher level. The highest Level being with the Almighty. All will be made clear when we die. This is why it is a proof of faith that Allah asks from us, if we accept Him as our Maker. Maybe they are not miracles at all, but abilities we have not yet achieved... After all He talks to us about what He can do, which is a great privilege in itself. Most of us do not respect Allah the way He should be respected as He extolls us in the Quran.
We already perform feats that will look as miracles to people of old with all the technologies we managed, with Allah's leave, to develop.
Nabster -
Peace Nabster, JM, all,
How are we going to be raised from the dead then, is this part of the natural laws?
The Qur'an tells us that we die every night. There is no "raising" per se, but a release of the soul from the clutches of the physical realm.
I believe the natural laws are a minute restriction of much higher laws to which the jinns have access to at a higher level, and the angels to an even higher level. The highest Level being with the Almighty.
I understand your perspective but I can't agree, based on 2 things First, why would the 2 beings that possess free-will be at the lower levels. And second, how can the malaikat exist at the level closest to God yet still be subservient to man? Meanwhile, jinn are not subservient but deceivers, in some cases. At any rate, perhaps instead of a hierarchy, your understanding would work better as a parallel.
All will be made clear when we die.
Certainly.
This is why it is a proof of faith that Allah asks from us, if we accept Him as our Maker.
I don't see how your explanation answers this question.
Maybe they are not miracles at all, but abilities we have not yet achieved...
It's possible.
Most of us do not respect Allah the way He should be respected as He extolls us in the Quran.
OK.
We already perform feats that will look as miracles to people of old with all the technologies we managed, with Allah's leave, to develop.
I agree.
JM, I just wanted to reply to you one of your thoughts that I overlooked. You stated
There will never be agreements between these 2 kinds of people unless they adopt the same hermeneutical approach.
I've come to the realization that agreement may simply not be possible, and perhaps, should not even be the goal. Understanding each other is what is important.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
What I find amazing, really amazing, is that in the Quaran Allah clearly says in plain Arabic that He allowed some of His Prophets to perform miracles by His leave, that He states the distinction between the Believers and Unbelievers, the latter looking at miracles as just plain magic, and Allah saying that whatever miracles performed, they will still not believe, and yet there are some people in this forum who cannot or do not want to accept Allah's own words. Isn't this kufr or what?
Nabster -
Peace
What I find amazing, really amazing, is that in the Quaran Allah clearly says in plain Arabic that He allowed some of His Prophets to perform miracles by His leave, that He states the distinction between the Believers and Unbelievers, the latter looking at miracles as just plain magic, and Allah saying that whatever miracles performed, they will still not believe, and yet there are some people in this forum who cannot or do not want to accept Allah's own words. Isn't this kufr or what?
NabsterEXACTLY
Peace bro
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Peace
What I find amazing, really amazing, is that in the Quaran Allah clearly says in plain Arabic that He allowed some of His Prophets to perform miracles by His leave, that He states the distinction between the Believers and Unbelievers, the latter looking at miracles as just plain magic, and Allah saying that whatever miracles performed, they will still not believe, and yet there are some people in this forum who cannot or do not want to accept Allah's own words. Isn't this kufr or what?
NabsterPeace bro
The Quran put it in an excellent way
And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say This is naught but the stories of the ancients.
(25)
Salam
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Salam again AhmedBahgat
Thank you for the evidence, I am really glad you are around...
Take care
Peace
Nabster -
Peace
How are we going to be raised from the dead then, is this part of the natural laws? I believe the natural laws are a minute restriction of much higher laws to which the jinns have access to at a higher level, and the angels to an even higher level. The highest Level being with the Almighty. All will be made clear when we die. This is why it is a proof of faith that Allah asks from us, if we accept Him as our Maker. Maybe they are not miracles at all, but abilities we have not yet achieved... After all He talks to us about what He can do, which is a great privilege in itself. Most of us do not respect Allah the way He should be respected as He extolls us in the Quran.
We already perform feats that will look as miracles to people of old with all the technologies we managed, with Allah's leave, to develop.
NabsterPeace,
Nabster, there has been found evidences of resurrection in laws of nature. I also have studied higher physics.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0
I believe it is in the middle, some things we don't know now that it is possible without loosing the physical laws, and some 'miracles' in the wrong are not miracles but taken out of context. But when we find out that certain things are possible, while we thought it was not, then it is not a miracle anymore he? Then again it falls under normal physics, the only difference is that it is now an unknown territory. I'm really carefull not to dismiss everything, but also not to accpet everything.
Peace
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Peace
arnoldyasin, you are right, the word miracle is not so good, i think Sign is better.
Of course with technology we might be able to do a lot as we already do.
There is a verse in the Quran that says that if we unravell the secrets of this Quran, we might be able, by Allah's leave, to raise the dead.
But surely the Creator can provide a Sign without any explanation, it is His universe after all.
And I do not believe in those "biblical" days they had the technologies which we don't yet have.
And let us not forget that everything in us and around us, as believers is a sign from Allah.
The Unbelievers whose heart have hardened cannot or refuse to appreciate that.
Salam
Nabster -
Peace Nabster,
You stated
that He states the distinction between the Believers and Unbelievers, the latter looking at miracles as just plain magic,
OK, so the disbelievers are ones who saw miracles and called it magic.
yet there are some people in this forum who cannot or do not want to accept Allah's own words. Isn't this kufr or what?
Possibly. Please point out who saw miracles and called them magic, and we'll get to the bottom of this.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Brother Tay
I refer you to the thread on the translation of Jinn, which got pretty heated up at one stage.
Salam
Nabster -
Peace,
622-25
And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners "Where are your partners whom you used to claim?"
Then, their only excuse was to Say "By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!"
See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.
And from them are those who listen to you; and We have made covers over their hearts to prevent them from understanding it, and a deafness in their ears; and if they see every sign they will not believe; even when they come to you they argue, those who reject Say "This is nothing but the tales from the past!"Peace,
Tay -
The Quran put it in an excellent way
And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say This is naught but the stories of the ancients.
Peace,
625 can be understood to mean those who actually take the metaphors in the verses to be literal.
Why?
Because if you argue that the events such as the splitting of the sea etc are real events then you make the metaphor which should be applicable in your own life nothing but an ancient story. The metaphor allows you to benefit from it, whereas insisting that it is an event gives you no benefit.
Note that the God does not shy away from citing metaphors. These are NOT ancient stories when treated as metaphors, but you are unwittingly holding to that very position that makes them nothing but ancient tales.
Regards.
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Peace,
I believe 625 cannot be used in this argument as it refers to believing in God which they say is a tale from the ancient. When we look at the context, this comes out. Also they reject the possibility of Revelation coming from God, which they refer to as tales from the past. The idea that God punishes the unrighteous, the resurrection, all those things fall under this verse. Which are also not denied by people who don't see miracles in the Quran, but misunderstood verses and meanings. Resurrection is to be found in the laws of nature, as seen in my article above. Revelation is also not denied.
623 Then, their only excuse was to Say "By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!"
624 See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.
625 And from them are those who listen to you; and We have made covers over their hearts to prevent them from understanding it, and a deafness in their ears; and if they see every sign they will not believe; even when they come to you they argue, those who reject Say "This is nothing but the tales from the past!"
626 And they are deterring others from it, and keeping away themselves; but they will only destroy themselves, yet they do not notice. -
Peace Bro Arnodlyasin
Thank you for the link and I copied it because I found it very interesting. In fact there had been some research linking this energy field from humans to the Heart primarily and secondarily the Brain. Another experiment is the 100 monkeys experiment where you teach a skill to monkeys and then when 100 or so learn it, other monkeys will spontaneously use the skill with minimum (just showing it once) training.
Thank you again, this again confirms what Allah says in the Quran, that He will keep up showing us Signs until we know that it is the truth from Him.
God bless
Nabster -
Peace,
637 And they said "If only a sign was sent to him from his Lord!" Say "God is able to send a sign, but most of them would not know."
What does this mean? Does it mean that if God made the oceans disappear, people would say this is nothing David Copperfield couldn't do? Or does it mean that the signs are everywhere, and those who pay attention take notice, while those who reject see nothing but a mechanical reality?
The signs/miracles are everywhere.
This universe was created from nothing.
There is nowehere you can look without seeing a miracle.Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
When i look around me, and i see people live. I wonder, do they even realize they are alive? Don't they realize that it is a miracle that they are here? Why do they waist their time on nonsense? They just live, they are just...there, they are not alive or dead, they are in their own created Gehenna.
Most people on earth believe in a higher force, but still most waist their time on nonsense. Here in Holland, people have lost touch with reality. They don't care what people do as long it doesn't affect their lives. They live day by day, stand up every morning, and don't even see that the wonder they are here. They just get up, go to work. get home. Go on holidays, have a bit of fun. This is life for them. They don't want to see more. They are not going backwards but also not forward. Not dead or alive.
1417 How difficult it is to swallow the bitterness of self-imposed failure! A life unlived, a mere survival, neither living nor dead (2074, 8713). What a heavy retribution!
When i think about the miracle i'm here, that there was no need for God to create me, then i see how great the gift is of my life. So that is why i want to make every step i take in life as much a miracle, as the miracle that i'm here. These people demand the miracles, and even then would deny them. That is why i don't believe the Quran talks about non-natural miracles, they are mostly misunderstood verses. As the miracle they are denying is right here in front of them, it is in them, they themselves are the miracle! This is the miracle they deny, they ignore this, and take it all for granted. Life is the miracle, the precise design of the creation. These are the miracles they deny.
When i see it all, i proclaim
3827 And We did not create the heaven and the Earth, and everything between them, in vain. Such is the thinking of those who rejected. Therefore, woe to those who have rejected from the Fire.
23115 "Did you think that we created you in vain; that you were not to be returned to us?"
2118 Only those who fail to explore the realm of knowledge say, ?Why does Allah not speak unto us directly, nor is a miracle shown to us?? Even thus, as they now speak, spoke those who lived before their times. Their ways of thinking, their hearts and minds are all alike (untouched by the passage of time.) Indeed, We have made all the Signs clear for people who wish to attain conviction by exploring the intrinsic Truth in these Revelations and in the Universe. (2108, 2256, 1829, 4251, 763) 2119 Lo! We have sent you, O Prophet, with the Decisive Truth, a herald of glad tiding and a Warner. And you will not be held accountable for those who choose to stay behind the Insurmountable Barrier, and hence, dwell there.