Quran and rationalism
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Salaam JM,
OK, how do you explain this tendancy of the sunnis to fabricate false miracles about the prophet ?
I was told in a thread here that the notion of shia 12 imams was "stolen" from persian. I also heard that the story of night ascencion was "stolen" from zoroastrian. So I guess that is how they fabricated the hadiths which is to justify what their fathers have been doing by "borrowing" the prophethood of Muhammad.
Another reason maybe to make an arab prophet superior to the prophets of children of Israel.
Regarding sunni and shia, they are only blindly following those fabrications.
What should be the other possibilities, then ?
They should be mentioned in the Quran, isn?t it ?Another possibility would be the language aspect of quran. I am taught that the language of quran is eloquent which is "far above" the human language. Since I don't speak arabic, I cannot really know "how far above" but that is quite logical considering the challenge below
223 And if you doubt any part of what We have, bestowed from on high, step by step, upon Our servant , then produce a surah of similar merit, and call upon any other than God to bear witness for you -if what you say is true!
Allah knows best how the proofs were presented at that time.
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Peace,
625 can be understood to mean those who actually take the metaphors in the verses to be literal.
Why?
Because if you argue that the events such as the splitting of the sea etc are real events then you make the metaphor which should be applicable in your own life nothing but an ancient story. The metaphor allows you to benefit from it, whereas insisting that it is an event gives you no benefit.
Note that the God does not shy away from citing metaphors. These are NOT ancient stories when treated as metaphors, but you are unwittingly holding to that very position that makes them nothing but ancient tales.
yes! I was just going to post about it then I saw Truth's post. Well said.
anyway,
About miracles, I don't think miracles exist. The ones in the Quran are metaphoric. The reason they don't exist is because they go against God's Laws. God doesn't break It's own laws and God doesn't need to break It's laws to prove It's existence. How ungrateful can we be?The question always is that if the Quran says something that doesn't get along with logic or science, then is it that the Quran is wrong or we don't know enough about this world?
The answer obviously can be either. We still have more to learn about this world no doubt. But theirs another question, why would God create a book which talks about things we don't understand yet??????????????? wouldn't that make us NOT believe in the book?????? I mean, that takes us to this argument many people use
the Quran will not make sense to you unless you first believe it is from God.
Which to me says "the Quran doesn't make sense but God can do strange things and so we should believe in the Quran."
This doesn't make sense to me. Going by that kind of thinking, we should all be following things that make no sense whatsoever.
There's a person who believes in the trinity BECAUSE it doesn't make any sense. Everything that makes sense must be man made, everything that doesn't should be from God because a man wouldn't invent stupid lies that no one in their right mind would believe.So going back to the underlined question, I would lean more towards the former.
I think there are two choices, either the Quran is wrong, or
It doesn't contain any "scientific miracles" or unkown knowledge but everything is metaphorical. -
And you think that talking in allegories and metaphors is always easy to understand, especially the ones you are putting forward? Most people are simple minded, and most of them do understand if you say the word miracle. Just witness why is it a lot of people get astray through the ages when someone comes and fools them with magick...
Wake up mr phoenix1/idolfree to the truth... you are not giving God the credit He is due...
Nabster -
In fact I will further tell you that there is no reality, this is all a test... The reality lies with Allah, everything else is just smokes and mirrors to distinguish between those who give thanks and those who stay rebellious...
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peace
The Quran isn't for "simple minded" people. It's for people who think. Symbolism is hard to understand, And I don't understand much of it yet, I admit. But I realize that the only thing that makes the Quran believable is taking those stories as metaphors. If you take them literally, then your belief in the Quran is blind.
If you are too lazy to think, or just want something to blindly believe in, I recommend the Bible.And what is easier to do, make stories with or without a deeper, symbolic meaning?
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peace
Are you questioning Allah's words that this Quran is easy to understand, and that it was revealed to all mankind?
You will get all your answers when you are shunted from causes and effects on your departure day... -
Mate read the quran better or learn arabic...
And Allah said to the doubtful, they will know this Quran as they know their own children... -
peace
What's the point of reading it if all I'm supposed to do is blindly believe whatever it says?
In fact, no one should be reading the Quran at all, since it is a book for people a who think. Since we aren't supposed to ponder and reflect and think on what it says, we aren't supposed to read it.
If the Quran really is what you say it is, I'd rather study the Harry Potter books since they do have a moral, a lesson, a deeper meaning that I can benefit from in my daily life.
If the Quran really is a book with ancient tales, as you say it is, then I don't want to waste my time on it. -
peace
Bro you havent understood a single thing i said... lol -
I never disputed a deeper meaning to Allah's Greater Signs. I just am saying that this does not invalidate that.
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oh yes it does.
what lesson do we gain from reading about weird, invisible beings that we can't see (and when there is no evidence of their existence). What do we learn from a man turning sticks into snakes, a man healing the blind and dead with superpowers, etc? If what we are reading about stuff that we can't understand, how are we supposed to learn from it? -
O Yes we learn... and none of these miracles were performed but by Allah's leave...
And the lesson for you is that you are unable to trust Allah... See through and beyond the miracles but you have no right to overrule them... I am amazed at your lack of God consciousness, you are stuck in the worship of rationalism... -
peace
The problem is, you need miracles because for you, Gods amazing creation isnt enough. You want God to go against Its creation, break Its laws, to prove Its powers to you. You are unable to trust the ability to think and verify that God has given you.
Please give me an example of what we learn from miracles such as Jesus healing the blind. -
Brother you are still not getting it.
It has nothing to do with learning, and everything to do with faith.
What you are showing is you have no faith so far...
Peace
Nabster -
peace
What is faith?
What you have is blind faith.
The only reason you call it "faith" is because you know that the Quran goes against logic. You know that the Quran (the way you look at it) can't be understood using our brains. So we should just believe everything it says without question because it is from God. If anything goes against logic, it's just a case of "our logic isn't good enough."
You are the one who is not showing any faith in God because you don't think God's creation is good enough. You don't think the Quran can be a smart enough book to contain symbols and metaphors. You don't have faith in the God given power we have to think and learn.
So did I get you right this time?It all has to do with learning. The more we know about this world, and about ourselves, the better people we become. And that righteousness is what brings us closer to God. Not believing in some non-existant beings and miracles.
Im sorry if I seem to be aggresive. No offence is intended.
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Bro I feel very sorry for you, may Allah guides you, are you a submitter or a preacher of falsehood?
Shaitan is a genius too, but he will go to Hell.
I have neither the time nor the patience to carry on arguing with you.
I have more important and interesting things to do.
Glad tidings
Nabster out