Quran and rationalism
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peace
What's the point of reading it if all I'm supposed to do is blindly believe whatever it says?
In fact, no one should be reading the Quran at all, since it is a book for people a who think. Since we aren't supposed to ponder and reflect and think on what it says, we aren't supposed to read it.
If the Quran really is what you say it is, I'd rather study the Harry Potter books since they do have a moral, a lesson, a deeper meaning that I can benefit from in my daily life.
If the Quran really is a book with ancient tales, as you say it is, then I don't want to waste my time on it. -
peace
Bro you havent understood a single thing i said... lol -
I never disputed a deeper meaning to Allah's Greater Signs. I just am saying that this does not invalidate that.
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oh yes it does.
what lesson do we gain from reading about weird, invisible beings that we can't see (and when there is no evidence of their existence). What do we learn from a man turning sticks into snakes, a man healing the blind and dead with superpowers, etc? If what we are reading about stuff that we can't understand, how are we supposed to learn from it? -
O Yes we learn... and none of these miracles were performed but by Allah's leave...
And the lesson for you is that you are unable to trust Allah... See through and beyond the miracles but you have no right to overrule them... I am amazed at your lack of God consciousness, you are stuck in the worship of rationalism... -
peace
The problem is, you need miracles because for you, Gods amazing creation isnt enough. You want God to go against Its creation, break Its laws, to prove Its powers to you. You are unable to trust the ability to think and verify that God has given you.
Please give me an example of what we learn from miracles such as Jesus healing the blind. -
Brother you are still not getting it.
It has nothing to do with learning, and everything to do with faith.
What you are showing is you have no faith so far...
Peace
Nabster -
peace
What is faith?
What you have is blind faith.
The only reason you call it "faith" is because you know that the Quran goes against logic. You know that the Quran (the way you look at it) can't be understood using our brains. So we should just believe everything it says without question because it is from God. If anything goes against logic, it's just a case of "our logic isn't good enough."
You are the one who is not showing any faith in God because you don't think God's creation is good enough. You don't think the Quran can be a smart enough book to contain symbols and metaphors. You don't have faith in the God given power we have to think and learn.
So did I get you right this time?It all has to do with learning. The more we know about this world, and about ourselves, the better people we become. And that righteousness is what brings us closer to God. Not believing in some non-existant beings and miracles.
Im sorry if I seem to be aggresive. No offence is intended.
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Bro I feel very sorry for you, may Allah guides you, are you a submitter or a preacher of falsehood?
Shaitan is a genius too, but he will go to Hell.
I have neither the time nor the patience to carry on arguing with you.
I have more important and interesting things to do.
Glad tidings
Nabster out -
peace
The Quran is not easy to understand.
Now I agree with you, because the Quran is not for the faint hearted and the Quran never claimed to be an easy book
I think that's the reason we even have this forum.
but it is also a place for many nonsense and conjectures by the misguided ones
But I think it's impossible to understand when you take it literally.
peace
I guess it is the other way around, because when they fail to understand it literally what they do is bloody manipulate as if they are smarter than God, however most of what is brought in as fairy tale explanations by a few non arabic speakers rockies do not stand a fraction of logic
See their plan is simple, if the literal is hard to understand "due to their lack of Arabic", then they bloody confuse the subject with pleanty of nonsense and conjecture
A true believer will be fully aware of those with Allah will
Salam
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Thank you again for your intervention Ahmed
Allah blesses you...
Nabster
PS I find the Quran muhkamaat very easy to understand but sometimes hard to practice (apart from hudud).
However the verses about the end of the world and Jehannam are very scary.
The verses about creation of the heavens and the earth and description of Paradise are beautiful. -
Thank you again for your intervention Ahmed
no worries bro, you are a dear brother in Islam
Allah blesses you...
Likewise mate
PS I find the Quran muhkamaat very easy to understand but sometimes hard to practice (apart from hudud).
of course they are easy to understand and hard to implement, whoever think that it will be easy to implement is naive really
However the verses about the end of the world and Jehannam are very scary.
of course bro, because if you remember, Allah told us many times that THIS QURAN IS A WARNING, therefore Allah must tell us in advance if He is going to punish the wrong doers, He was so fair and just to tell us what is the punishment exactly in advance, imagine Hhe only told us that there will be punishment without going into details, then we get the shock of an eternal life when He surprises us with all these sort of horrific and humiliating punishment, this is fairness at its max bro.
now those wrong doers CAN'T have an excuse
The verses about creation of the heavens and the earth and description of Paradise are beautiful.
They are and most of the Quran verses are, I love the Quran mate, I spent as much as you studying it in its original language not the many confusing translations done by some language ignornats
take care
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According to me, nature can be said to be a book of God, as well as the Quran.
So, there cannot be contradictions between nature and the Quran.
However, it is possible that the knowledge we have of the laws of nature is imperfect or incorrect.Agree with u bro..
My approach is then to evaluate the reliability of the scientific knowledge (knowledge of the laws of the nature). For example, I will consider that a stick cannot physically move like a snake. On other issues, I may consider that the scientifically knowledge is unreliable.
And, when I estimate that, for an issue, the scientifically knowledge is reliable; I will endeavor to stick my interpretation of the Quran to it. In the case of the stick moving like a snake, I will see it to be metaphoric.Of course.. the stick / a pile of wood material can be moved 'like a snake'.
Superman can fly without wings..
Rabbit can talk... (ie Bugs Bunny)
Its all just a matter of 'illusion'.. human perception of things..Peace
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Salaam JM,
OK, how do you explain this tendancy of the sunnis to fabricate false miracles about the prophet ?
I was told in a thread here that the notion of shia 12 imams was "stolen" from persian. I also heard that the story of night ascencion was "stolen" from zoroastrian. So I guess that is how they fabricated the hadiths which is to justify what their fathers have been doing by "borrowing" the prophethood of Muhammad.
Another reason maybe to make an arab prophet superior to the prophets of children of Israel.
Regarding sunni and shia, they are only blindly following those fabrications.
IMHO, these false miracles have been fabricated by unbelievers who need that to have faith in God.
What should be the other possibilities, then ?
They should be mentioned in the Quran, isn?t it ?Another possibility would be the language aspect of quran. I am taught that the language of quran is eloquent which is "far above" the human language. Since I don't speak arabic, I cannot really know "how far above" but that is quite logical considering the challenge below
223 And if you doubt any part of what We have, bestowed from on high, step by step, upon Our servant , then produce a surah of similar merit, and call upon any other than God to bear witness for you -if what you say is true!
Allah knows best how the proofs were presented at that time.
Your ?Allah knows best? means to me that you don?t know what are really the proofs alluded to in the Quran.
I will now explain my own opinion. I may add that what I am going to advance is my current understanding, and it needs to be backed by further study of the Quran.
Why I choosed to believe in the Quran ?
IMHO, the Quran is a sign (ayat), a proof because of the meaning of its contents.
In the Quran, God devotes a lot of words to tell us about the fate of all nations. There is a common pattern to all theses stories
When a nation sticks to God?s laws (values, principles?), it prospers.
And, reciprocally, when a nation abandons God?s laws, it perishes (the nation can have success for some time, but it eventually perishes).The main message of the Quran to the people is the following believe in God, stick to God?s laws and you will have success in this life and in the hereafter.
There are also, in the Quran, many verses about life, nature, whose lesson is that the idols people worshipped, as well as the leaders people served, have no power, and that all power is in the hands of God.
The goal of God?s message was to put an end the chiefdom system (along with its tyranny, exploitation, ignorance?), and to give birth to a new way of life, where all men and women would be deemed equal. It planted the seed of what will eventually allow humanity to unite, and put an end to all forms of injustice.
Before studying Islam, I have read a lot about psychology, biology, and many other sciences, in order to understand the human nature. And I have came to the conclusion that God?s message, as it is put in the Quran, is what the human being needs to stop injustices, and achieve global unity and peace.
Why I consider the Quran is from God ?
I think that the belief in a just God is deeply ingrained in everyone?s mind (and this is confirmed by recent scientific studies). And I consider the Quran to be from God because the Quran does not promote the interests of some human group or sect ; on the contrary, the Quran sets all human being equals, and this is what is to be expected of a just god.
For example I cannot consider Christianity to be the message of God because it holds that the Christians, trough baptism, will be saved.
In the same way, Sunnis and Shiaism promote the superiority of their sect.Since God, by definition, should be just and equitable, a message where everyone will be judged according to one?s deeds is cogent with the conception of God that is inherent to our human nature.
Why I don?t believe in miracles ?
In the Quran, God states that he has bound the universe with laws, and that these laws are unchangeable.
Some examples
- A nation who does not stick to God?s message eventually perishes
- Someone who does good deeds will be rewarded in the hereafter
- When I drop an object, it falls
- All human beings are born from the sperm of their father in the womb of their mother
It includes all the laws of the universe, in particular the laws of nature (physical laws, the laws of human psychology, etc).
For me, the only true miracle is that these laws never change. The laws of time don?t change; the laws according to which the earth revolves around the sun don?t change?etc
I am aware that, if God willed so, he could do miracles (exceptional breaking of one of these laws). But he doesn?t, because a sound faith should not rely on this.
In the Quran, we see that only the unbelievers need miracles. The knowledgeable find God?s message self-evident. Thus, asking for miracles is no more than a sign of disbelief.
Since the message God revealed to his messengers was the same as the one he revealed to Muhammad, and since God refused to help Muhammad through miracles, God has undoubtedly refused to help Moses or Jesus do miracles too, and the accounts of Jesus or Moses deeds should be understood symbolically.
For example, the curing of the blind by Jesus may mean that, with God?s message, God has opened the eyes and showed God?s light to a disbeliever.Obviously, what I have exposed here needs further studying and elaboration.
More reading here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0
Hope it will help
Peace
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Salaam JM,
IMHO, these false miracles have been fabricated by unbelievers who need that to have faith in God.
But why did they fabricate those hadiths? I mean they believe that quran is from God. If they already believe quran is from God, then IMHO, there is no need to fabricate such hadiths. For example, I believe that quran is from God which means I accept that Muhammad is a messenger of Allah. Why do I need to fabricate hadiths to reprove again that Muhammad is God's messenger? I really don't understand your logic
Could you elaborate more bro JM?
Your ?Allah knows best? means to me that you don?t know what are really the proofs alluded to in the Quran.
Of course I don't know because I live in this century. But for sure the proofs must have been presented to people at that time.
I will now explain my own opinion. I may add that what I am going to advance is my current understanding, and it needs to be backed by further study of the Quran.
Why I choosed to believe in the Quran ?
IMHO, the Quran is a sign (ayat), a proof because of the meaning of its contents.
I basically agree but it needs further critical questions.
Three people come to you and each of them claim to be the messenger of Allah. They are A, B, and C.
A claim that the punishment for adultery is 50 lashes. B claim that the punishment for adultery is 25 lashes. C claim that the punishment for adultery is 5 lashes. The content of the message is basically the same (the adulterer have to be punished) but the severity differs. Which law will you implement as God's law without proofs?
In the Quran, God devotes a lot of words to tell us about the fate of all nations. There is a common pattern to all theses stories
When a nation sticks to God?s laws (values, principles?), it prospers.
And, reciprocally, when a nation abandons God?s laws, it perishes (the nation can have success for some time, but it eventually perishes).The main message of the Quran to the people is the following believe in God, stick to God?s laws and you will have success in this life and in the hereafter.
Which God's laws in my example will you stick to without proofs?
Why I don?t believe in miracles ?
I am aware that, if God willed so, he could do miracles (exceptional breaking of one of these laws). But he doesn?t, because a sound faith should not rely on this.Could you elaborate your understanding of "by Allah's leave" in 349 for example?
349 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message) "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
In the Quran, we see that only the unbelievers need miracles. The knowledgeable find God?s message self-evident. Thus, asking for miracles is no more than a sign of disbelief.
So do you mean verse 2260 means Abraham is a disbeliever or what?
2260 Behold! Abraham said "My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead." He said "Dost thou not then believe?" He said "Yea! but to satisfy My own undertaking." He said "Take four birds; Tame them to turn to thee; put a portion of them on every hill and call to them They will come to thee (Flying) with speed. Then know that Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise."
Since the message God revealed to his messengers was the same as the one he revealed to Muhammad, and since God refused to help Muhammad through miracles, God has undoubtedly refused to help Moses or Jesus do miracles too, and the accounts of Jesus or Moses deeds should be understood symbolically.
So do you believe verse 250 is only symbolic?
250 And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.
Wassalam,
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Peace Andy,
You have to remember that you see what you are thaugt to see. Where in 2260 does it say he chopped the birds up? It says he put on every hill one bird, the group of 4 birds was divided, not the birds themselves. He learned that the birds came through just calling, just as we will come when God 'calls' us. Why did he had to train them, and then chop them up? He wanted to learn how the dead responded to God's call, and God showed him the example how trained birds responded to his call. Exactly like his question was. Also where in 250 does it say, the sea was splitted through a 'miracle'? Moses walked through at lowtide(see, 'splitting'?), and Pharoah was taken by the sudden hightide. Moses was helped to be there at just the right time, nothing more...
And here are some more misunderstood so-called 'miracles'
The healings of Jesus are meant metaphorically. Like the words used in 349, the word is abras, one suffering from lukoderma, a diseas that discolours the skin, and not judham, leprosy. Propably under evangelical influences did it got confused with leprosy. Metaphorically, however, it means, to have ones misfortune added to another. Ibn Faris says that al-biras means, barren portions of the desert, whence the metaphorical meaning of misfortune, so Jesus cured misfortunes by teaching people the truth. The Quran compares moral crimes to diseases, and calls those guilty of them, deaf, dumb and blind, as in 218 and diseased of the heart in 210 and even dead as in 2780, that is why the scripture, which is the Truth, is called a healing in 4144. It is again, shown that people distort the metaphorical meanings, and don't take the Quran as its guide how the read things. That Jesus his healings were taken literally is of course through evangelical influences. The only Gospel that is in the so-calles Gospels, are Jesus his words, not his deeds, and by thus are the recordings not to be used for understanding and explaining the Quran, but the Quran must be used to explain the Gospel and Jesus's history.
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They are deaf, dumb and blind, and shall never return;
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Sick are their hearts, and God adds to their malady. For them is suffering for they lie.
The Quran uses diseases as metaphors. And the diseases that Jesus cured coincide directly with the metaphoricaly used diseases. This is in my eyes no coincedence. As i use the Quran to explain itself. -
So you place your trust in God. Certainly you stand on positive truth.
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You cannot make the dead to listen, or the deaf to hear the call, when they have turned their backs,
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Nor can you lead the blind when they have gone astray. You can make none hear except those who believe in Our signs and have come to peace and submission.
And you can see clearly in verse 81, that none will hear except the ones who will open up to the message. This what Jesus has done. One of Jesus used phrases is Hear who wants to hear! He made the blind see, the deaf hear, and the dead alive again through the truth he brought. You can see here clearly again that death is used metaphoricaly. As the Quran is one of the Kitab's, all the Books were healings, as the Quran
- If We had made it a discourse in an obscure tongue, they would have said "Why were its revelations not expounded distinctly? A foreign tongue and an Arab (audience)?" Say "For those who believe it is a guidance and a healing; but for those who do not believe it is a deafness in the ears, and a blindness. They are those one calls to from far away. Verily We gave Moses the Book; but they began to differ about it. If the Word of your Lord had not preceded it the matter would have been settled between them. They are still in doubt about it and uneasy.
Again it can be no coincidence that healing, deaf and blindless are used together. Jesus message made people heal from their deafness, blindness and even from their 'deaths'. I use the Quran to explain itself, what do you use? And i don't see Jesus curing literaly as an impossibility, it is that there is no real evidence for this from the Quran. Plus God says He doesn't changes His laws. He can, but He said He won't, so this should be our point of view.
You quoted this verse as your proof, but you have to remember to see the uses of the word inside the Quran, plus the arabic meanings.
5110 Then will Allah say "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said 'This is nothing but evident magic.
Apart from 'bird', Tair also means 'omen' as in 7131, 2747, 3619 and as 'actions' or 'good deeds or evil fate'-the register of deeds- as in 1713. Also it means 'destiny'or 'fortune'. So the word 'tair', doesn't only mean 'bird'. So it refers to here that the Jews at Jesus's time were deplorable and Jesus instilled new life in them, and raised them up from the 'mirre'. And before you say, they accused of him of mere magic in the last part of the verse, you have to remember that even the Quran was called magic. So the messages were called even magic by the deniers. So the verse is really like this
- And when God will say "O Jesus, son of Mary, remember the favours I bestowed on you and your mother, and reinforced you with divine grace that you spoke to men when in the cradle, and when in the prime of life; when I taught you the law and the judgement and the Torah and the Gospel; when you formed the state of your people's destiny out of mire and you breathed (a new spirit) into it, and they rose by My leave; when you healed the blind by My leave, and the leper ; when you put life into the dead by My will; and when I held back the children of Israel from you when you brought to them My signs, and the disbelievers among them said "Surely these are nothing but pure magic."
You underlined the term, by His leave, when using crossreference you see
- Are you going to compel the people to believe except by God's dispensation/leave? He puts doubt in (the minds of) those who do not think.
So the 'by God's leave' in 349 refers to that no one can force people into believing except if God will otherwise, and Jesus had gotten His leave...
As the state of the the Jews at the time of Jesus(and also before that and after that) clearly shows 'tair' refers to their destiny, plus keeping in mind God never changes His laws
- Degraded they shall live wheresoever they be unless they make an alliance with God and alliance with men, for they have incurred the anger of God, and misery overhangs them. That is because they denied the signs of God and killed the prophets unjustly, and rebelled, and went beyond the limit.
No changing in God's law, this includes in His Deen and all creation.
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So keep yourself exclusively on the true way, the creational law of God according to which He created man with the quality of choosing right or wrong. There is no altering/changing of God's creation. This is the supreme law. But most men do not understand.
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Such was the law of God among those before you; and you will not find any change in the law of God.
All 'miracles' are or misunderstood verses, or not known possibilities in sunnat'Allah.
See here for example the so-called virgin birth
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6087.msg94002#msg94002
Hope this helps...
Peace
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Salaam JM,
IMHO, these false miracles have been fabricated by unbelievers who need that to have faith in God.
But why did they fabricate those hadiths? I mean they believe that quran is from God. If they already believe quran is from God, then IMHO, there is no need to fabricate such hadiths. For example, I believe that quran is from God which means I accept that Muhammad is a messenger of Allah. Why do I need to fabricate hadiths to reprove again that Muhammad is God's messenger? I really don't understand your logic
Could you elaborate more bro JM?
According to historical accounts, the early muslims have converted many people.
They may have fabricated these miracles to ease their enterprise.Your ?Allah knows best? means to me that you don?t know what are really the proofs alluded to in the Quran.
Of course I don't know because I live in this century. But for sure the proofs must have been presented to people at that time.
Such important matter should have been in the Quran.
I will now explain my own opinion. I may add that what I am going to advance is my current understanding, and it needs to be backed by further study of the Quran.
Why I choosed to believe in the Quran ?
IMHO, the Quran is a sign (ayat), a proof because of the meaning of its contents.
I basically agree but it needs further critical questions.
Three people come to you and each of them claim to be the messenger of Allah. They are A, B, and C.
A claim that the punishment for adultery is 50 lashes. B claim that the punishment for adultery is 25 lashes. C claim that the punishment for adultery is 5 lashes. The content of the message is basically the same (the adulterer have to be punished) but the severity differs. Which law will you implement as God's law without proofs?
What is important in God?s message is the NO to idolatry (with all its consequences, see http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0).
At his times, Muhammad was the only one to hold this discourse.
And since God?s message has eventually been preserved in the Quran, there is no need for new messengers.For your other questions, see AY?s excellent post.
You may also check the explanations of Muhammad Ali, Muhammad Asad, or Shabbir Ahmed (Links available here http//www.studyquran.org/EnglishTranslations.htm)Peace
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Salaam arnoldyasin,
You have to remember that you see what you are thaugt to see.
Not really bro, I was taught to take Shahih Bukhari as divine text ...but now?
Where in 2260 does it say he chopped the birds up? It says he put on every hill one bird, the group of 4 birds was divided, not the birds themselves. He learned that the birds came through just calling, just as we will come when God 'calls' us. Why did he had to train them, and then chop them up? He wanted to learn how the dead responded to God's call, and God showed him the example how trained birds responded to his call.
I think you missunderstood me here.
JM said "Thus, asking for miracles is no more than a sign of disbelief."
My understanding is asking for proofs (please don't be confused with the term miracle and proof here) is a sign of intelligence (you cannot just accept a claim that A is the messenger of Allah without proofs - and IMHO, if somebody comes to you and says "I am the messenger of Allah", I bet the first step you do would be asking for proofs). Accepting everything without asking is a sign of blind belief whereas rejecting proofs is a sign of disbelief. This is why when JM said that, I bring 2260.
Anyway, your explanation is new to me (not sure about the correctness though) ...thanks
Exactly like his question was. Also where in 250 does it say, the sea was splitted through a 'miracle'? Moses walked through at lowtide(see, 'splitting'?), and Pharoah was taken by the sudden hightide. Moses was helped to be there at just the right time, nothing more...
Again you missunderstood me.
JM said "Since the message God revealed to his messengers was the same as the one he revealed to Muhammad, and since God refused to help Muhammad through miracles, God has undoubtedly refused to help Moses or Jesus do miracles too, and the accounts of Jesus or Moses deeds should be understood symbolically."
My understanding is, their stories are real and not merely symbolic. So when I bring 250, I mean to show JM that Pharaoh was really drowned and not symbolically "drowned".
All 'miracles' are or misunderstood verses, or not known possibilities in sunnat'Allah.
Does that include code-19 miracle?
Wassalam,