"those who believe and do good works" - 2:62 and 3:21

warner

Thank you for the information on psychopaths and people with a disease in their minds.

Can a person be a psychopath from birth?
What are the reasons a person turn out to be one?
Also what percentage of the population has psychopathic conditions?

I believe when a person?s life is based on false beliefs and false submission and rejects the truth he/she may turn in to someone with many of the qualities of a psychopath. I read somewhere that a person with true faith in God can not suffer any mental illnesses.

I guess this soundness of mind is reflected in the following verses.

26 89

Yusuf Ali "But only he (will prosper) that brings to Allah a sound heart;
Transliteration Il la_ man atal la_ha biqalbin salim

AND

37 83
Yusuf Ali Verily among those who followed his Way was Abraham.
Transliteration Wa ina min Syiatihi la ibra_him

37 84Yusuf Ali Behold He approached his Lord with a sound heart.
Transliteration Iz ja_ a rab bahu_ biqalbin salim

But I am not certain about the psychopath = disbeliever or disbeliever= psychopath equation.

lowtech

what people seem to be missing here is that people who do not believe...they may have good deeds. However, they have more then enough bad deeds to nullify the good. For example; there maybe aetheists who give to charity and help needy people all the time. They may also be more envolved by giving there actual time to help people. But at the same time, mosts aethiests don't have a problem with having sex without being married, they dont have a problem with eating pork or drinking alcohol on a regular basis and occasionally getting drunk too. They don't have a problem with abortions. They definately don't have a problem speaking ill of other people without proof or just talking trash about someone simply because they dont like them. To be a good persong and doing good things according to islam, you have to rid yourselves of this behaviour. First find someone who doesn't believe that also has none of those bad qualities...then maybe your theory will hold water. Perhaps its because God know of the impossibility of such a person existing that its not mentioned in the quran.

Similarly, true believers do not do bad deeds. one might feel in their heart they do believe. However, if you are doing bad deeds such as lying or commiting adultery or constantly backbite then your belief in my opinion is not strong enough for you to be considered a believer.

Also, I agree with Ahmed et all that believe that 4914 is very misused by a lot of people on this site. The reason these people were told to say you submit rather then believe is because those people had very limited knowledge of quran. They simply heard about the prophet and some of the things he was doing and they wanted to join him. The prophet was told by god to tell them to say you have submitted instead because they could not possibly believe when they had no knowledge of what was actually in the quran. Instead they were told to submit and listen to the prophet which would in turn give them knowledge of what's in the quran which would then in turn increase their faith and they would hopefully become believers. There is an article here on free minds titled submiters vs believers. While I don't agree with the whole article, I do believe in parts of it. Mainly, I agree that believers are held to a higher set of standards than submitters and in order for them be considered believers by god, they need to live by those standards. I may have knowledge of whats in the quran and feel that I am a believer, but if I do bad deeds than god does not consider me to be a true believer. What I truly would be is a submitter. Hopefully God would forgive me of my bad deeds and reward me for my good deeds, but that's up to God.

There was someone else that asked if he/she would go to heaven if he did good deeds but wasn't a believer. You don't have to be an unbeliever if you don't believe. You can also be a submitter. You can be someone who lives and does good according to the Quran and go to heaven. A submitter is somewhere between a believer and a disbeliever. A true believer will definately go to heaven in my opinion but it is up God to decide wether or not you truly are a believer. Remember, a believer does not do bad deeds and does do good deeds and lives by a higher standard in order for god to consider him/her a believer. A Disbeliever will definatly go to hell in my opinion. They may have good deeds but they have not submit and god will not forgive them of their bad deeds. A submitter is someone who may go to heaven or may go to hell. It all depends on the weight of you good deeds vs the weight of your bad. Hopefully based on your good deeds god will forgive you your bad deeds and grant you admission into heaven. So just because you are not a believer does not make you a disbeliever.

This is all based on my knowledge of the quran to this point. I still need more knowledge of wether or not God mentions forgiveness from bad deeds regarding the believers anywhere in the Quran and wether or not those bad deeds were before god considered them to be believers, as that would throw my theory completely down the drain.

nadeem

Peace!

Brother Warner,

Can a person be a psychopath from birth?

I'm not sure, but from what I've read, it appears to be so.

I read somewhere that a person with true faith in God can not suffer any mental illnesses.

I'd be careful with such a notion.

Suppose there is a man, that has lived his life in total devotion to god. But something terrible happens... he grows old. And at such an age, mental disorders which have been lying hidden in his genes, starts to appear. Would you say that this person is no longer a true believer?

Think of those with tourettes for example.

But I am not certain about the psychopath = disbeliever or disbeliever= psychopath equation.

I believe if taken literally, there is definitly contradictions. However, if taken metaphorically, it will make more sense.

It's like when the quran says "A bad word is like a tree chopped at ground level".(from memory)

If I start throwing bad words at you, it doesn't mean that there are trees coming out of mouth. Only the literal-fanatic would claim so.

Similarly, the resemblances doesn't mean that the two are one and the same physically.

The quran says that they're (the kafir) dumb, deaf and blind. Yet other verses say that they spoke, heard and rejected what they witnessed. If the analogy is taken literally in the first place, we have a contradiction.

A kafir is dumb, deaf and blind, but that doesn't mean that one wich is physically handicapped and born wihout these abilities is a kafir.

Similarly a psychopath may not neccessarily be a kafir. Thus the "Kafir = Psychopath" is wrong if not properly explained more clearly, else if taken seriously, alot of people who have not comitted any crime but being sick will be mistreated on the basis of such an understanding.

I hope I was clear and not confusing.

Brother Lowtech,

what people seem to be missing here is that people who do not believe...they may have good deeds. However, they have more then enough bad deeds to nullify the good. For example; there maybe aetheists who give to charity and help needy people all the time. They may also be more envolved by giving there actual time to help people. But at the same time, mosts aethiests don't have a problem with having sex without being married, they dont have a problem with eating pork or drinking alcohol on a regular basis and occasionally getting drunk too. They don't have a problem with abortions. They definately don't have a problem speaking ill of other people without proof or just talking trash about someone simply because they dont like them.

These are awful things to say. What you are describing here is the phenomena which many eloquently describe as "Moron". And these morons are to be found in every belief. To single out the atheist because of their lacking belief is...well...moronic. Do you really believe that belief in god will make these people better? (those of them who need to be). Didn't satan believe in God? Yet, he is the greatest rejecter. Go figure.

To be a good persong and doing good things according to islam, you have to rid yourselves of this behaviour. First find someone who doesn't believe that also has none of those bad qualities...then maybe your theory will hold water

Find one person who does no evil, or else you shall swear that there are no muslims to be found!

Hope you see the flaw in your reasoning.

About 4914. I do not understand the reasoning that if an arab from that time is asked not to believe before belief comes to him, then that means everyone else should believe before belief come to them. Does not make sense.

And if your statements are correct, then you should admit that parts of the quran is outdated as they neither apply to us nor are we permitted to learn from the moral within.

Yet, even if we accept that 4914 is limited to the arab. There is no denying that, one who follow the quran, and understand 3918 and 1736, will do exactly as prophet ordered the arabs to do - They will wait for belief to come to them, patiently trying research and verify.

All in all, it's up to god to decide. Our conclusions on whom goes where on J-Day has no meaning other than to give us the satisfaction and security of knowing - let's not forget.

nadeem.

wildguest1956

49 14
Pickthall

The wandering Arabs say We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The verse 4914 is one of the most misused verses in the Quraan and some base this verse to give a whole new interpretation to believing and submitting while ignoring so many verses on these 2 important factors. The prophet has been advised by God what to say in many circumstances when different persons meet him or confront him. For example how to reply to the believing and non believing Jews and Christians, what to say to believing women, believers, hypocrites and pagans and also different answers or comments under different circumstances. The above verse is what to say when desert Arabs come to the prophet. Please read all other verses with regard to Arabs and what the prophet is instructed to say. The ?submit? in this verse does not mean the desert Arabs have totally submitted to one God. It only means that they have ?surrendered?. I hope you will understand from this point.

There is a confusion for many on the degree of belief and the degree of submission. Belief and submission can be looked in two different angles. Believer and/or submitter among men and believer and submitter in front of God. I like to think I am a believer and a submitter. People around me might think so too. Even I can openly say I believe, like the desert Arabs in 4914. But God knows the truth. What guarantee have I got whether I am accepted as a believer and a submitter by God? That my belief is not tainted with shirk. And my actions were solely were for God. We can receive guidance from the Quraan and it will show us the straight path, if God wills . Also we can try and make every effort to be righteous. But we can not purify ourselves and can not be certain because we will not know whether we are truly successful till the last minute.

I am not sure I understand what you mean.

Here is how I understand it.
Islam is a system, a way of life ( a deen). It is also a social organization.
To submit (in ) = to be willing to live in this system, this social organization.
To believe = to be firmly convinced of the existence of God and of the hereafter, and, as a consequence, to act (publicly and privately) will hell and paradise in mind.

Do you agree ?

Peace

nadeem

For those interested

I have added this to my research

IS A REJECTER/HYPOCRITE A PSYCHOPATH?

Here is a list of what defines a psychopath. Under each trait, you can see the references to the verse which attributes thatsame trait to the kafir.

Glibness/superficial charm

2912 - They say "If you follow our way, we will be responsible for your sins."
634 - They speak eloquently, and impress by their physical apperances.

Grandiose sense of self-worth

638 - The uphold a "caste"-like system, where they're "the noble" and others are "lowly".
261, 1413 - they don't believe in religious freedom
382 - They are arrogant and defiant
3647 - They reject charity

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom

543 - They follow their desires and old traditions.

Pathological lying

611 - They're liars, and spies.
2912 - They say "If you follow our way, we will be responsible for your sins."
1623 - They recognize God's blessings, then they deny them.
370 - They reject what they themselves are witnesses of.
291, 3112 - While claiming to follow gods revelations to them, they kill prophets!
5103 - They invents lies against god, and laws god never approved

Conning/manipulative

2912 - They say "If you follow our way, we will be responsible for your sins."
214 - They cheat and deceive
634 - They speak eloquently, and impress by their physical apperances.
5916 - They use you for their own purpose, and then disown you.

Lack of remorse or guilt

18104 - They believe their doing good
212 - they are the evildoers, but they do not perceive

Shallow affect
While I'm unable to single out one verse which states "shallow affect" particularly, there are plenty of verses to show that they are indeed shallow.

Callous/lack of empathy
Again, I've not verse stating this particularly. But seeing their works and how they reacet, it's obvious they lack empathy.

Parasitic lifestyle

4161 - They take financial interest, and consume people money unjustly.
417 - "The ones who do not contribute towards betterment,"
4825 - They prevent donations from reaching their destination.

Poor behavioral controls

4137 - They're unable to decide, one moment they believe, the other they don't.

Promiscuous sexual behavior
Cannot remember the verse; unsure.

Early behavioral problems
Again, unsure.

Lack of realistic, long-term goals

4137 - They're unable to decide, one moment they believe, the other they don't.
3827 - They believe the creation is meaningless

Impulsivity

4137 - They're unable to decide, one moment they believe, the other they don't.

Irresponsibility

417 - Denial of the hereafter.
8519 - They are in denial
343 - They deny The Hour

Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

211 - unable to take responsibility for their deeds.

Many short-term marital relationships
Again, no clear statements on this from the quran. However, I expect that any person with a little self-worth would not bother putting up with the personality we are describing here.

Juvenile delinquency
No clear statement

Revocation of conditional release
As seen, this is likely, as the disbeliever is unable to keep his pledges and unable to keep on track

Criminal versatility
Again its likely, considering the enviroments such people would be intermingling in.

If anyone can fill in the blanks, I'd be very happy -)

Nadeem

unknownuser

Peace nadeem,lowtech,warner and all.
Nadeem; I think that the limitations of our mind have both a genetic and an environmental aspect.....But also another very,very important component,which is will-power....With correct use of will-power many genetic and environmental hardships can be transcended,just look at hellen kellor,stephen hawkins and sportsmen from the ghetto without natural physical advantages...The boxer pernell whitaker is an example. (a great,great boxer who was only 5 ft 6 inches tall and didnt have a knockout punch,yet beat many of the best of his era,who were physically bigger and harder punching than him.)
The genetic aspect of our mind may be dependent on biological factors,and how our very early conditioning goes,(first three years.) as this is when some say the mind is developing and learning at its most rapid....The conditioning aspect is how our parents and environment nuture our potential towards growth.....The will power aspect is a mixture of the previous two plus the vital ingredient,what niescthze called the 'will to power'...I dont take this as a negative or in terms of oppressing others,but in terms of willing oneself to be happy, (note;making other happy also makes us happier.) and trying to transcend hardship to the best of our ability....
This i believe is the aspect which we CAN control personally,the other factors being dependent on outside factors out of our control.....To me this is what life is all about,the will to sustainable happiness and development,to as many people as we humanly can....
I will add more given time,and i will try to respond to your post with the quranic references you quoted...
ps; very good replies to lowtech and warner.

Warner; I believe we all have the POTENTIAL to be psychopathic....This can happen through a mixture of environment,genetics and probably most importantly mis-use of will-power...Bad conditioning,illusions,delusions, lack of control of emotions and mistaken information can lead to severe anger and mindset.....Just look at the muslims who started off gentle and peaceful when first converting,then became radical and psychopathical because of bad information,illusions and brainwashing,leading to killing of innocents and much destruction......A believer cant be a pyschopath? There is no doubt many are.....Just look at 7-7,madrid,mumbai,bali,palestine etc,etc... And it can be caused by the negative indoctrination of naive,vulnerable people.....We need to stop the mass indoctrination,or there may be more afghanistans,al quedas,christian extremists,talibans and such like....

lowtech; Hey,im probably considered an atheist by many,yet i dont get drunk,i dont like abortion,i dont cheat on my wife,i try to take responsibility for my actions and speech,i try to teach my kids right from wrong,and i try to be a moral person.....Not because i fear some man in the sky or a single judgement day,but because i know that my actions have real consequences in this world,and i know that hurting people for no reason or because of being irresponsible is not a productive or pleasant way to live....Have i messed up your theory.....?

warner

Quote enquirer
ps; very good replies to lowtech?.

And

Nadeems reply to lowtech

..To single out the atheist because of their lacking belief is...well...moronic.

Quote enquirer

.....Just look at the muslims who started off gentle and peaceful when first converting,then became radical and psychopathical because of bad information,illusions and brainwashing,leading to killing of innocents and much destruction......A believer cant be a pyschopath? There is no doubt many are.....Just look at 7-7,madrid,mumbai,bali,palestine etc,etc... And it can be caused by the negative indoctrination of naive,vulnerable people....

Thanks for telling us where you are come from.

A believer and a submitter can not be a psychopath and how do you know ?whether faith has entered in his heart?. As I explained, like explaining to a 2 year old , this is a believer from mans judgment and not Gods judgment. If you ever read the Quraan fully without looking for verses haphazardly you will understand a believer will not do this kind of things.

Quote enquirer
.....We need to stop the mass indoctrination,or there may be more
..

OK I am ready, where do we start

unknownuser

Peace warner. If man cannot make a judgement on who is a true believer or not,then all the verses on believers and unbelievers are irrelevant as only god can understand them.....How do you follow the instructions to deal with believers/disbelievers if you dont know truely who is in what category......
Are the people who kill innocents,yet proclaim to believe in god/islam not psychos....? Or do they have an excuse,cos id love to hear it....?
Finally,you want to know how to stop the indoctrination....? We need to stop teaching/propogating and disseminating harmful dogmas,illusions,wishful thinking and harmful fantasies that cannot be verified at all in real-life,and start teaching people how to really research,think,and practically behave in ways that benefit humanity,not a man in the sky...Hows that...? peace

lowtech

Peace Enquirer,

Peace warner. If man cannot make a judgement on who is a true believer or not,then all the verses on believers and unbelievers are irrelevant as only god can understand them.....How do you follow the instructions to deal with believers/disbelievers if you dont know truely who is in what category......
Are the people who kill innocents,yet proclaim to believe in god/islam not psychos....? Or do they have an excuse,cos id love to hear it....?
Finally,you want to know how to stop the indoctrination....? We need to stop teaching/propogating and disseminating harmful dogmas,illusions,wishful thinking and harmful fantasies that cannot be verified at all in real-life,and start teaching people how to really research,think,and practically behave in ways that benefit humanity,not a man in the sky...Hows that...? peace

I don't see how these verses can be considered to be irrelevant. At the least a submitter would want to strive to become a believer.

As far as if you messed up my theory...I'd have to say no. It seem to me that just being on this site for as long as you have...Even if you weren't raised in islam or maybe even you were raised in islam and rejected it at an early age. But you seem to have a decent knowledge of what's in the quran. Definately more than the mass sunni/shia indoctrinated "muslims". I don't know if you are a submitter or not. But being a disbeliever is pretty hard to do. I feel like having doubts as to wether or not there is an almighty being doesn't make you a disbeliever. What makes you a disbeliever in my opinion is when you say to yourself or others that god does not exist. I don't strive to be a good person out of fear of God and the hope of going to heaven. I do it because its the right thing. However, what the quran has written in it helped me early on to develop a moral code. I do believe in God and I do want to be in paradise after this world, but I try to do good because in makes me feel better as a person.

To nadeem. Im sorry we disagree, but I never said you have to believe in god to be go to heaven. I was trying to say that you have to live by a code of conduct that is found within the pages of the quran. Maybe there are people that have never read the quran but the live by the code of conduct found in the quran for whatever reason. they could be very spiritual, they could be christian who reject the concept of the trinity. But they cannot be people who reject that there is God and God is one. I haven't been rude to anyone here and we may disagree but I would not call your ideas or beliefs moronic no matter how strongly I may disagree with them. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

peace all

Tay

Peace lowtech, all,

First, welcome.

I agree with a lot of what you stated with some reservations.

mosts aethiests don't have a problem with having sex without being married, they dont have a problem with eating pork or drinking alcohol on a regular basis and occasionally getting drunk too. They don't have a problem with abortions. They definately don't have a problem speaking ill of other people without proof or just talking trash about someone simply because they dont like them.

My issue with the above statement is the generaliztion, in particular, using the phrase "most atheists". This is a condemnation without merit, unless you are witholding some reliable statistics.

Moving on, and I'm not sure if you agree with this or not, the idea of "doing good" or "good deeds" is not something accidental. People don't do good for any functional advantage. There is no material gain in helping an older person with their groceries (besides maybe the occasional nickel tip ). People do good to satisfy an inner desire - call it compassion or sympathy/empathy, whatever it's called, it's something within that becomes satisfied by contributing outwardly to others. Doing good feels good.

Now, the question which I'm pondering is this. Does doing good in order to feel good qualify as simply an effect of selfish ambition? Or does doing good in order to feel good qualify as listening to God's signs?

The difference is prodigious, because if it's God's signs that are being qualified, then, by default, doing good qualifies as submitting. This is irrespective of what a person professes to be their "belief", because, afterall, it is what's in the heart that counts.

Peace,
Tay

lowtech

Peace Tay,

Perhaps my thoughts on atheists came out wrong. by most I mean most that I have come across.

Well I agree with you as to te fact that doing good feels good. I feel like its in our nature as human beings to do good and help others. Now, there are people that do bad and might have no regrets. There are also other that while they don't do bad things, they're very self involved and don't care much for the well being of society. I feel that politics and ORGANISED religion has played the biggest role in loss of this basic human nature in much of the society the world over. I guess satan loves to whisper in to the hearts of the powerful. But thats a discussion for another thread.

To answer your question...As a muslim I believe that we are all born muslim. If that's the case, then we would naturally be following the Quran wether we have knowlede of it or not. So yes it would qualify as listening to God's signs. I agree with you again regarding it being whats in the heart that counts. However, I also feel that one cannot reject the Quran or be an Idol worshiper because in my opinion that nullifies everything in the sight of God. This is perhaps the hardest part of Islam for me to embrace. I do however embrace Islam as a whole (well the Quran only Islam anyways) and hope I am judged favorably when the time comes.

There is another group of people that I'd like to touch upon. Those that do good simply as a means to get into heaven. I feel that if you aren't doing good deeds from your heart than those deeds are nullified.

lowtech

Peace JM,

This might be the verses you were looking for from Br. Ahmed

478 But those who reject ((Allah)),- for them is destruction, and ((Allah)) will render their deeds astray (from their mark).
479 That is because they hate the Revelation of Allah. so He has made their deeds fruitless.

unknownuser

Hello brother Iowtech

Welcome to the forum bro, I agree with most of the points in your comment however I disgree with the following

While I don't agree with the whole article, I do believe in parts of it. Mainly, I agree that believers are held to a higher set of standards than submitters and in order for them be considered believers by god, they need to live by those standards. I may have knowledge of whats in the quran and feel that I am a believer, but if I do bad deeds than god does not consider me to be a true believer. What I truly would be is a submitter. Hopefully God would forgive me of my bad deeds and reward me for my good deeds, but that's up to God.

It is easy for many to know what believe is, but do you think that it is the same for a submitter?, i/, talking from the religion point of view

in the case of the Arabs and the jews prophets mentioned, who were talking to believers, both their prophets adviced them to say they submit , i.e. the objective is submission, i.e. it is a higher level than believing, this is logically obvious from the name of the religion as chosen by Allah, the name describe the highest level of believing, no wonder it is acalled submission, brother Nadeem also provided a very strong argument regarding Satan, He was 100% a believer, but was he a submitter, well a submitter will do anything told by the master, did Satando that?, no he did not therefore he was not a submitter rather a believer only and yet he is going to the hell fire

a true submitter will never go to the hell fire with Allah will however many believeres will pay their dues in the hell fire including Satan, Satan will never be out though becvause instead of taking his belief to the higher level of submission he disbelieved instead

Take care bro

Tay

Peace lowtech,

Thanks for explaining. I agree with you regarding being born/naturally muslim and thus a believer by default. I disagree that rejecting the Qur'an nullifies the good, particularly in the case of bad translations and/or teachers. I know that if I had never heard of Islam and was offered the traditional dogmatic version of it, I would probably reject it outright.

Peace,
Tay

Elke

I know that if I had never heard of Islam and was offered the traditional dogmatic version of it, I would probably reject it outright.

exactly and that's what i did- lived in egypt for 7 years - if you had told me then that i would follow islam i would never believe you... and if i was to follow what's pratized in my new 'homeland' morocco - i couldn't do it either.

peace
lk

warner

Peace be upon you.

Thank you, Ahmed.

I like to explain belief and submission with the following verses.

Yusuf Ali

20 70 So the magicians were thrown down to prostration they said "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."

20 71 (Pharaoh) said "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this must be your leader who has taught you magic! Be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees So shall ye know for certain which of us can give the more severe and the more lasting Punishment!"

20 72 They said "Never shall we regard thee as more than the Clear Signs that have come to us or than Him Who created us! So decree whatever thou desirest to decree for thou canst only decree (touching) the life of this world.

20 73 For us we have believed in our Lord may He forgive us our faults and the magic to which thou didst compel us for Allah is Best and Most Abiding."

2074 Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at judgment) for him is Hell therein shall he neither die nor live.

2075 But such as comes to Him as Believers who have worked righteous deeds-- for them are ranks exalted

2076 Gardens of Eternity beneath which flow rivers they will dwell therein for aye such is the reward of those who purify themselves (from evil).

The magicians of Pharaoh when they saw Gods clear signs proclaim their belief straight away. Compare the belief of these magicians with the belief proclaimed by the desert Arabs. When Pharaoh realized their change in belief he threatens them with torture and death. Still they do not change their position. This is submission. This kind of submission comes from the strength of their belief. Belief and submission go hand in hand. But Pharoah, although he saw the signs he was too arrogant to submit, just like Satan was too arrogant to submit to Gods command.

unknownuser

Peace tay,lowtect and all. I find what you are pondering over tay,a 64 million dollar ($$$!!!) question...
Please ponder over it and get back to us.....My personal feeling is that its the will/inclination/practical doing of good deeds (not rituals,dogmas or harmful practices mind.) that makes one a submitter,muslim,mumin....I think beliefs are just theories about life, which may be proven/verified in future to be true or not.....To me it doesnt matter if you believe in god,the quran or any religion or what your beliefs are,what counts is your trying to do what is good for yourself and others to the best of your ability...I think kindness,empathy,compassion,cause and efect,defending the innocent,responsibility for ones actions,awareness of consequences and such like are pretty universal,and many people do these things because it is proven in their life-experiences that it improves the lives of others and theirselves....The reward is happiness now,and in the future.....No one judgement day or god needed to enforce or bully people into doing strange deeds or harmful/meningless rituals....Having good vibes/peace of mind from helping others and oneself is its own reward...

Lowtech; I respect your moderate views,however why would an all-merciful god condemn practically good people to hell,because they had a supposedly incorrect understanding of him...? (eg trinity.)
peace

unknownuser