"those who believe and do good works" - 2:62 and 3:21

nadeem

For those interested

I have added this to my research

IS A REJECTER/HYPOCRITE A PSYCHOPATH?

Here is a list of what defines a psychopath. Under each trait, you can see the references to the verse which attributes thatsame trait to the kafir.

Glibness/superficial charm

2912 - They say "If you follow our way, we will be responsible for your sins."
634 - They speak eloquently, and impress by their physical apperances.

Grandiose sense of self-worth

638 - The uphold a "caste"-like system, where they're "the noble" and others are "lowly".
261, 1413 - they don't believe in religious freedom
382 - They are arrogant and defiant
3647 - They reject charity

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom

543 - They follow their desires and old traditions.

Pathological lying

611 - They're liars, and spies.
2912 - They say "If you follow our way, we will be responsible for your sins."
1623 - They recognize God's blessings, then they deny them.
370 - They reject what they themselves are witnesses of.
291, 3112 - While claiming to follow gods revelations to them, they kill prophets!
5103 - They invents lies against god, and laws god never approved

Conning/manipulative

2912 - They say "If you follow our way, we will be responsible for your sins."
214 - They cheat and deceive
634 - They speak eloquently, and impress by their physical apperances.
5916 - They use you for their own purpose, and then disown you.

Lack of remorse or guilt

18104 - They believe their doing good
212 - they are the evildoers, but they do not perceive

Shallow affect
While I'm unable to single out one verse which states "shallow affect" particularly, there are plenty of verses to show that they are indeed shallow.

Callous/lack of empathy
Again, I've not verse stating this particularly. But seeing their works and how they reacet, it's obvious they lack empathy.

Parasitic lifestyle

4161 - They take financial interest, and consume people money unjustly.
417 - "The ones who do not contribute towards betterment,"
4825 - They prevent donations from reaching their destination.

Poor behavioral controls

4137 - They're unable to decide, one moment they believe, the other they don't.

Promiscuous sexual behavior
Cannot remember the verse; unsure.

Early behavioral problems
Again, unsure.

Lack of realistic, long-term goals

4137 - They're unable to decide, one moment they believe, the other they don't.
3827 - They believe the creation is meaningless

Impulsivity

4137 - They're unable to decide, one moment they believe, the other they don't.

Irresponsibility

417 - Denial of the hereafter.
8519 - They are in denial
343 - They deny The Hour

Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

211 - unable to take responsibility for their deeds.

Many short-term marital relationships
Again, no clear statements on this from the quran. However, I expect that any person with a little self-worth would not bother putting up with the personality we are describing here.

Juvenile delinquency
No clear statement

Revocation of conditional release
As seen, this is likely, as the disbeliever is unable to keep his pledges and unable to keep on track

Criminal versatility
Again its likely, considering the enviroments such people would be intermingling in.

If anyone can fill in the blanks, I'd be very happy -)

Nadeem

unknownuser

Peace nadeem,lowtech,warner and all.
Nadeem; I think that the limitations of our mind have both a genetic and an environmental aspect.....But also another very,very important component,which is will-power....With correct use of will-power many genetic and environmental hardships can be transcended,just look at hellen kellor,stephen hawkins and sportsmen from the ghetto without natural physical advantages...The boxer pernell whitaker is an example. (a great,great boxer who was only 5 ft 6 inches tall and didnt have a knockout punch,yet beat many of the best of his era,who were physically bigger and harder punching than him.)
The genetic aspect of our mind may be dependent on biological factors,and how our very early conditioning goes,(first three years.) as this is when some say the mind is developing and learning at its most rapid....The conditioning aspect is how our parents and environment nuture our potential towards growth.....The will power aspect is a mixture of the previous two plus the vital ingredient,what niescthze called the 'will to power'...I dont take this as a negative or in terms of oppressing others,but in terms of willing oneself to be happy, (note;making other happy also makes us happier.) and trying to transcend hardship to the best of our ability....
This i believe is the aspect which we CAN control personally,the other factors being dependent on outside factors out of our control.....To me this is what life is all about,the will to sustainable happiness and development,to as many people as we humanly can....
I will add more given time,and i will try to respond to your post with the quranic references you quoted...
ps; very good replies to lowtech and warner.

Warner; I believe we all have the POTENTIAL to be psychopathic....This can happen through a mixture of environment,genetics and probably most importantly mis-use of will-power...Bad conditioning,illusions,delusions, lack of control of emotions and mistaken information can lead to severe anger and mindset.....Just look at the muslims who started off gentle and peaceful when first converting,then became radical and psychopathical because of bad information,illusions and brainwashing,leading to killing of innocents and much destruction......A believer cant be a pyschopath? There is no doubt many are.....Just look at 7-7,madrid,mumbai,bali,palestine etc,etc... And it can be caused by the negative indoctrination of naive,vulnerable people.....We need to stop the mass indoctrination,or there may be more afghanistans,al quedas,christian extremists,talibans and such like....

lowtech; Hey,im probably considered an atheist by many,yet i dont get drunk,i dont like abortion,i dont cheat on my wife,i try to take responsibility for my actions and speech,i try to teach my kids right from wrong,and i try to be a moral person.....Not because i fear some man in the sky or a single judgement day,but because i know that my actions have real consequences in this world,and i know that hurting people for no reason or because of being irresponsible is not a productive or pleasant way to live....Have i messed up your theory.....?

warner

Quote enquirer
ps; very good replies to lowtech?.

And

Nadeems reply to lowtech

..To single out the atheist because of their lacking belief is...well...moronic.

Quote enquirer

.....Just look at the muslims who started off gentle and peaceful when first converting,then became radical and psychopathical because of bad information,illusions and brainwashing,leading to killing of innocents and much destruction......A believer cant be a pyschopath? There is no doubt many are.....Just look at 7-7,madrid,mumbai,bali,palestine etc,etc... And it can be caused by the negative indoctrination of naive,vulnerable people....

Thanks for telling us where you are come from.

A believer and a submitter can not be a psychopath and how do you know ?whether faith has entered in his heart?. As I explained, like explaining to a 2 year old , this is a believer from mans judgment and not Gods judgment. If you ever read the Quraan fully without looking for verses haphazardly you will understand a believer will not do this kind of things.

Quote enquirer
.....We need to stop the mass indoctrination,or there may be more
..

OK I am ready, where do we start

unknownuser

Peace warner. If man cannot make a judgement on who is a true believer or not,then all the verses on believers and unbelievers are irrelevant as only god can understand them.....How do you follow the instructions to deal with believers/disbelievers if you dont know truely who is in what category......
Are the people who kill innocents,yet proclaim to believe in god/islam not psychos....? Or do they have an excuse,cos id love to hear it....?
Finally,you want to know how to stop the indoctrination....? We need to stop teaching/propogating and disseminating harmful dogmas,illusions,wishful thinking and harmful fantasies that cannot be verified at all in real-life,and start teaching people how to really research,think,and practically behave in ways that benefit humanity,not a man in the sky...Hows that...? peace

lowtech

Peace Enquirer,

Peace warner. If man cannot make a judgement on who is a true believer or not,then all the verses on believers and unbelievers are irrelevant as only god can understand them.....How do you follow the instructions to deal with believers/disbelievers if you dont know truely who is in what category......
Are the people who kill innocents,yet proclaim to believe in god/islam not psychos....? Or do they have an excuse,cos id love to hear it....?
Finally,you want to know how to stop the indoctrination....? We need to stop teaching/propogating and disseminating harmful dogmas,illusions,wishful thinking and harmful fantasies that cannot be verified at all in real-life,and start teaching people how to really research,think,and practically behave in ways that benefit humanity,not a man in the sky...Hows that...? peace

I don't see how these verses can be considered to be irrelevant. At the least a submitter would want to strive to become a believer.

As far as if you messed up my theory...I'd have to say no. It seem to me that just being on this site for as long as you have...Even if you weren't raised in islam or maybe even you were raised in islam and rejected it at an early age. But you seem to have a decent knowledge of what's in the quran. Definately more than the mass sunni/shia indoctrinated "muslims". I don't know if you are a submitter or not. But being a disbeliever is pretty hard to do. I feel like having doubts as to wether or not there is an almighty being doesn't make you a disbeliever. What makes you a disbeliever in my opinion is when you say to yourself or others that god does not exist. I don't strive to be a good person out of fear of God and the hope of going to heaven. I do it because its the right thing. However, what the quran has written in it helped me early on to develop a moral code. I do believe in God and I do want to be in paradise after this world, but I try to do good because in makes me feel better as a person.

To nadeem. Im sorry we disagree, but I never said you have to believe in god to be go to heaven. I was trying to say that you have to live by a code of conduct that is found within the pages of the quran. Maybe there are people that have never read the quran but the live by the code of conduct found in the quran for whatever reason. they could be very spiritual, they could be christian who reject the concept of the trinity. But they cannot be people who reject that there is God and God is one. I haven't been rude to anyone here and we may disagree but I would not call your ideas or beliefs moronic no matter how strongly I may disagree with them. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

peace all

Tay

Peace lowtech, all,

First, welcome.

I agree with a lot of what you stated with some reservations.

mosts aethiests don't have a problem with having sex without being married, they dont have a problem with eating pork or drinking alcohol on a regular basis and occasionally getting drunk too. They don't have a problem with abortions. They definately don't have a problem speaking ill of other people without proof or just talking trash about someone simply because they dont like them.

My issue with the above statement is the generaliztion, in particular, using the phrase "most atheists". This is a condemnation without merit, unless you are witholding some reliable statistics.

Moving on, and I'm not sure if you agree with this or not, the idea of "doing good" or "good deeds" is not something accidental. People don't do good for any functional advantage. There is no material gain in helping an older person with their groceries (besides maybe the occasional nickel tip ). People do good to satisfy an inner desire - call it compassion or sympathy/empathy, whatever it's called, it's something within that becomes satisfied by contributing outwardly to others. Doing good feels good.

Now, the question which I'm pondering is this. Does doing good in order to feel good qualify as simply an effect of selfish ambition? Or does doing good in order to feel good qualify as listening to God's signs?

The difference is prodigious, because if it's God's signs that are being qualified, then, by default, doing good qualifies as submitting. This is irrespective of what a person professes to be their "belief", because, afterall, it is what's in the heart that counts.

Peace,
Tay

lowtech

Peace Tay,

Perhaps my thoughts on atheists came out wrong. by most I mean most that I have come across.

Well I agree with you as to te fact that doing good feels good. I feel like its in our nature as human beings to do good and help others. Now, there are people that do bad and might have no regrets. There are also other that while they don't do bad things, they're very self involved and don't care much for the well being of society. I feel that politics and ORGANISED religion has played the biggest role in loss of this basic human nature in much of the society the world over. I guess satan loves to whisper in to the hearts of the powerful. But thats a discussion for another thread.

To answer your question...As a muslim I believe that we are all born muslim. If that's the case, then we would naturally be following the Quran wether we have knowlede of it or not. So yes it would qualify as listening to God's signs. I agree with you again regarding it being whats in the heart that counts. However, I also feel that one cannot reject the Quran or be an Idol worshiper because in my opinion that nullifies everything in the sight of God. This is perhaps the hardest part of Islam for me to embrace. I do however embrace Islam as a whole (well the Quran only Islam anyways) and hope I am judged favorably when the time comes.

There is another group of people that I'd like to touch upon. Those that do good simply as a means to get into heaven. I feel that if you aren't doing good deeds from your heart than those deeds are nullified.

lowtech

Peace JM,

This might be the verses you were looking for from Br. Ahmed

478 But those who reject ((Allah)),- for them is destruction, and ((Allah)) will render their deeds astray (from their mark).
479 That is because they hate the Revelation of Allah. so He has made their deeds fruitless.

unknownuser

Hello brother Iowtech

Welcome to the forum bro, I agree with most of the points in your comment however I disgree with the following

While I don't agree with the whole article, I do believe in parts of it. Mainly, I agree that believers are held to a higher set of standards than submitters and in order for them be considered believers by god, they need to live by those standards. I may have knowledge of whats in the quran and feel that I am a believer, but if I do bad deeds than god does not consider me to be a true believer. What I truly would be is a submitter. Hopefully God would forgive me of my bad deeds and reward me for my good deeds, but that's up to God.

It is easy for many to know what believe is, but do you think that it is the same for a submitter?, i/, talking from the religion point of view

in the case of the Arabs and the jews prophets mentioned, who were talking to believers, both their prophets adviced them to say they submit , i.e. the objective is submission, i.e. it is a higher level than believing, this is logically obvious from the name of the religion as chosen by Allah, the name describe the highest level of believing, no wonder it is acalled submission, brother Nadeem also provided a very strong argument regarding Satan, He was 100% a believer, but was he a submitter, well a submitter will do anything told by the master, did Satando that?, no he did not therefore he was not a submitter rather a believer only and yet he is going to the hell fire

a true submitter will never go to the hell fire with Allah will however many believeres will pay their dues in the hell fire including Satan, Satan will never be out though becvause instead of taking his belief to the higher level of submission he disbelieved instead

Take care bro

Tay

Peace lowtech,

Thanks for explaining. I agree with you regarding being born/naturally muslim and thus a believer by default. I disagree that rejecting the Qur'an nullifies the good, particularly in the case of bad translations and/or teachers. I know that if I had never heard of Islam and was offered the traditional dogmatic version of it, I would probably reject it outright.

Peace,
Tay

Elke

I know that if I had never heard of Islam and was offered the traditional dogmatic version of it, I would probably reject it outright.

exactly and that's what i did- lived in egypt for 7 years - if you had told me then that i would follow islam i would never believe you... and if i was to follow what's pratized in my new 'homeland' morocco - i couldn't do it either.

peace
lk

warner

Peace be upon you.

Thank you, Ahmed.

I like to explain belief and submission with the following verses.

Yusuf Ali

20 70 So the magicians were thrown down to prostration they said "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."

20 71 (Pharaoh) said "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this must be your leader who has taught you magic! Be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees So shall ye know for certain which of us can give the more severe and the more lasting Punishment!"

20 72 They said "Never shall we regard thee as more than the Clear Signs that have come to us or than Him Who created us! So decree whatever thou desirest to decree for thou canst only decree (touching) the life of this world.

20 73 For us we have believed in our Lord may He forgive us our faults and the magic to which thou didst compel us for Allah is Best and Most Abiding."

2074 Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at judgment) for him is Hell therein shall he neither die nor live.

2075 But such as comes to Him as Believers who have worked righteous deeds-- for them are ranks exalted

2076 Gardens of Eternity beneath which flow rivers they will dwell therein for aye such is the reward of those who purify themselves (from evil).

The magicians of Pharaoh when they saw Gods clear signs proclaim their belief straight away. Compare the belief of these magicians with the belief proclaimed by the desert Arabs. When Pharaoh realized their change in belief he threatens them with torture and death. Still they do not change their position. This is submission. This kind of submission comes from the strength of their belief. Belief and submission go hand in hand. But Pharoah, although he saw the signs he was too arrogant to submit, just like Satan was too arrogant to submit to Gods command.

unknownuser

Peace tay,lowtect and all. I find what you are pondering over tay,a 64 million dollar ($$$!!!) question...
Please ponder over it and get back to us.....My personal feeling is that its the will/inclination/practical doing of good deeds (not rituals,dogmas or harmful practices mind.) that makes one a submitter,muslim,mumin....I think beliefs are just theories about life, which may be proven/verified in future to be true or not.....To me it doesnt matter if you believe in god,the quran or any religion or what your beliefs are,what counts is your trying to do what is good for yourself and others to the best of your ability...I think kindness,empathy,compassion,cause and efect,defending the innocent,responsibility for ones actions,awareness of consequences and such like are pretty universal,and many people do these things because it is proven in their life-experiences that it improves the lives of others and theirselves....The reward is happiness now,and in the future.....No one judgement day or god needed to enforce or bully people into doing strange deeds or harmful/meningless rituals....Having good vibes/peace of mind from helping others and oneself is its own reward...

Lowtech; I respect your moderate views,however why would an all-merciful god condemn practically good people to hell,because they had a supposedly incorrect understanding of him...? (eg trinity.)
peace

unknownuser