Djenna & Gehenna; explanation
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Peace AB
Peace bro
I ask you why Jahannam can't be real and a mental state at the same time (i.e. why does "real" have to mean a physical location?)
Because I consider it as we live now in a physical location, do you consider the earth real?
and your response is that Allah said it cant be both, and that it is only one. Now who is putting words in Allah's mouth?
well, it is my lack of English indeed, sorry
what I meant that Allah only gave us ONE MEANING OF HELL, but nice try by you bro.
Maybe I've missed the verse. Is there a verse that says "Jahannam is a physical place, and not a mental state"
Well there are verse that clearly says Jahannam is a place, this will come soon in a few long comments and a flash movie, however, no, there no verse that says it is not a state of mind so this means for me that it can?t be that because Allah didn?t say that
or something similar?
possibly, I will look and see
Can you point out a verse to me that says Jahannam has to be physical and nothing else?
I don?t have to show a verse that Jahannam can?t be nothing else, however if Allah didn?t mention that it can be anything else then it can?t be anything else
You see, you're using your preconceived notions of Allah's words.
No, it is you trying to create a concept Allah never told us about, so again I may ask you why you are trying to manipulate Allah words regarding Jahannam?
Did He say it can be a state of mind?
Just because you paste Allah's words and say the words mean X, doesnt mean X is Allah's words.
For you possibly and I won?t give a fluke really but for many it does
X is just your interpretation of Allah's words.
At least I don?t add to it nor manipulate it
Similarly, others (who you vehemently disagree with) use those very same Allah's words and interpret them as Y.
But they add to it as well manipulate it, I?m no fool it is obvious to the naked believing eye, it is called feel good religion concept, a serious vulnerability for those who can?t comprehend that Hell is for real, I k now a lot of those and possibly I was one of them about 22 years ago, but at that time I didn?t try to manipulate it to make look more comfy I just faced the truth of jahanaam as mentioned in details in the Quran then I accepted it because it is from Allah.
And yet you say they're making up their own words while you're only relying on Allah's words.
Of course they are and of course I?m not unless it was a mistake in expression as you caught me with one earlier.
You yourself are not above subjective impressions, preconceived notions, and biased interpretations. I think, the sooner you realize that, the better off these discussions will be.
Will see how soon I can realize, I have been here 9 months and I realized a lot of things, unfortunately what you want to realize in unrealizable yet
The argument I was making about the bird chirping wasn't mean to be "clever" or "tom and jerry."
Of course it is doctor.
I was making a very serious point, a point that I thought would be common sense "real" isnt just what you can see.
But if Allah is in the picture then anything I hear from Him must be real
I'm not going to beat around the bush.
A good idea
Thinking "reality" is only what we can see with the human eye is simply one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life.
Obviously you missed the plot and only concentrating to flaw me, while it is your right, I hope you support your claims using the Quran if you can, now what you missed is this
Anything Allah says, must be real regardless I see it or not, NOW I MAY DO YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN OR NOT?
Sounds you hear, feelings you have, all these things that the human eye cannot perceive, are not real?
Don?t try to confuse the subject bro with some philosophical tendencies, we are only talking about the vision as well I?m talking about what Allah says not what the humans say
I simply cannot understand how anyone can claim such a thing.
Fine, but you may try thinking harder
Similarly, it is possible that Allah uses imagery (imagery that the human mind can comprehend) to speak about things that we (in our limited experience) cannot possibly comprehend. Not everything is literal.
I don?t know what you going on about, let?s start from square one again and try to simplify it
- The argument ?Is Jahhannam a PHYSICAL AND REAL PLACE OR NOT??
- Accepted evidences ?Quran Alone?
Ahmed says, yes it is 100% physical place and I will provide many evidences from the Quran inshaallah to support my claim, I need a bit of time to prepare it
Back to you doctor
This isnt me changing Allah's words or doubting Allah.
Sure, you are just adding to it
This is me simply using the brain that Allah gave me.
Sure, use it to add to Allah words, as if it was not enough
I have the humility to realize that my Creator is Transcendent and Infinite, and that His knowledge surpasses my own and that, for the sake of human understanding,
Well, mate I don?t have philosophical tendencies so you are talking with the wrong person, you may discuss the above with many here who will love your words, I don?t
He has painted the message about certain things in metaphorical terms, in human imagery. This is completely possible. Nay, it is probable. How does one explain the taste of chocolate to one who has never even seen it?
Well, we can say it tastes good
Very clearly, Allah has spoken in metaphorical terms before; I don't see why this is any different.
Because it will conflict with a whole heap of verses
DON?T YOU GET IT OR WHAT BRO?
Does not Allah sit on His Throne (Arsh, 3975)? Is that literal? Is that "real?"
I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.
Do you honestly think that Allah (the Creator of the Universe) sits on a physical chair?
I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.
I'm sure you don't.
You sound confident but sorry wrong guess because I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.
I'm sure you see that as a metaphor for God's power and Sovereignty, just as we all do.
It is possible but I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.
Why is this any different? Why does "fire" have to be a physical fire? Why can't "fire" be like that throne that Allah speaks about?
Well the throne for sure is 100% physical, the quran told us that it is carried by 8, this means it is physical however regarding Allah sitting on it or not, I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.
Regarding the fire, yes in many location in the Quran Allah told us that it is real, and I care to know about that one because I need to avoid it however for the throne it won?t make a difference to me to know if Allah sits on it or not. So please don?t mix apples with mangos
If you say that Allah does not sit on a physical throne,
I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.
I can respond in kind So you don't think the Throne is "real" ?
Of course it is real because it is carried by 8 as Allah told us
Are you saying Allah lied?
Utter BS
Are you doubting Allah's words? etc. etc.
Utter BS
Why is this any different?
Bro, let?s go back to square one and try to simplify it again, please respond to this only and ignore the all the above
- The argument ?Is Jahhannam a PHYSICAL AND REAL PLACE OR NOT??
- Accepted evidences ?Quran Alone?
Ahmed says, yes it is 100% physical place and I will provide many evidences from the Quran inshaallah to support my claim, I need a bit of time to prepare it
Back to you doctor
Cheers
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Salam.
I think that Arnold wrote a beautiful article but to descibe heaven and Hell ..... well, i have been thinking about this for a while and i think we cannot really even imagine what Heaven or Hell look like until we get there.
I mean, sure, it says we will have all the food, drinks, virgins, peace, nice clothes, tranquility, harmony, friendships in Paradise but we can't imagine that because we haven't experienced it and we can't possibly compare it to this world and it's food, drinks, virgins, peace, nice clothes, tranquility, harmony, friendships.
Also, one can't describe either Heaven or Hell because one hasn't seen them or experienced them. We have descriptions of them in the Qur'an but i think that Heaven and Hell are far beyond human comprehension.
Just like we can't descibe God Almighty to an atheist because we haven't see Him yet. Of course, when we see Him, .... it will be so new experience that i think all this world, what we did, our memory, goals and everything else will seem smaller at that moment.
I do wish to get inside Paradise, i pray for it but only Allah Most High guides whomever He wants to the Right Path. There are people on this Earth who don't want Heaven - and they will get just that.
Allah Most Merciful knows best.
Salam. -
Peace Alen,
Please re-read the whole thread once again.
Also where-ever you read any verse quoted from quran, you must re-confirm it., else you will be beliving on hearsay.
Thereafter quote your views, Ill be looking forward to your post jediSalam
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Peace,
Quote
The verse is clearly a metaphor regarding the vision in this life NOT THE HELL FIRE, so for me to take it literally I have to take it as a metaphor at least for the first part because the first part of being blind on earth doesn?t apply to all the kafirron on earth, but I prefer to take the last part as not a metaphor and they will be blind for real, now please tell me what that has to do with the hell being real or thoughts of mind?The reason I said I prefer to take the last part as real because Allah clearly told us what those blind kafirron will say to Him on the JD after they are raised blind for real
124- And whoever turns away from My reminder, his shall be a straitened life, and We will raise him on the day of resurrection, blind.
125- He will say O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?
(124)
(125)-> The above verse clearly and irrefutably tell us that the first part of 1772 is a metaphor ?Blind on Earth? and the second part is real ?Blind on the JD?, this is obvious from the kafir questioning Allah ? O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)??
This verse doesn't say it is a metaphor.
because the common sense suggest as such unless you consider God talking non sense, in fact the verses after explain to us why they were considered blind metaphorically because they forgot ignored Allah message, clear as light it is a metaphor, so I donlt pick and chose according to my low desires, it is according to the common sense
in addition to the common sense provided in the verses expaling why they will be considered blind, it is clear that not all mishrikoon are physically blind so it has to be a metaphor, on the JD however we can't know because we have not been there yet however Allah clearly told that they will be raised physically blind as we read from the dialoguw between the kuffar and Him, so all the logical evidneces lead to taking the first part as metaohor and the seconad as real
Yes, and my common sense takes Gehenna and Djenna also different. 'common sense' comes from the knowledge and view you have, it depends on your background. My 'common sense' is different then yours. What is 'common sense' to you then? What the majority on earth will accept? Common sense is based on what YOU know and understand. So condemning something based on YOUR common sense has no authority at all accept in YOUR own mind.
But i cannot?
no you can as long as it does not contradict another verse in the Quran
Because YOU believe it contradicts the Quran. I have checked every verse, and it doesn't contradict at all from MY point of view. But we approach verses totaly different as you even believe God has ears and sits on a real throne. You stopped our debate about God being everything as you lost it back then, your view is contradicting the Quran many times also from MY point of view.
Now you have to admit it is a metaphor while it doesn't say it is a metaphor.
of course
This is different from your usual stance
peace bro
yes mate, it is the most safe path is to not to invent any metaphires and associate that cojecture to Allah, because He never said as such, also He always tells us in advance that here is a metaphor, so why following guesses?
my concern is regarding those who say that the story of Moses is a metaphor, or part of it like removing his shoe, well if that ios the case then the fire was a metaphor, his white hand was a metaphor and the snake was a metaphor and all the humans who believe in the Quran are being deceived by their god because all these were metaphores and he never told us a s such but he selected a few other things that are obviously metaphores and told us in advance "here is a metaphor", well the complication is now like this, we can not really know for certain which one is a metaphor if the message is that encrypted
cheers
- Allah said in advance "Here is a parable"
- The verse has enough logic and common sense to conclusively confirm that it is a metaphor
So now you use your 'common sense' to believe it is a metaphor? But you will not allow me to do that as YOUR 'common sense' doesn't accept it and sees contradictions. Remember it is YOUR mind that sees contradictions based on YOUR knowledge and background. So YOU are the judge if something is a metaphor or not based on YOUR 'common sense'? Your 'common sense' is based on what YOU know. Maybe YOU don't know some things which is the reason YOUR 'common sense' doesn't grasp my article.
I remember the valley of tawa debate well, and it was because YOUR common sense didn't see any weirdness in taking of sandals in the middle of a valley. But many people 'common sense' didn't accept it. Where do you take the authority that YOUR 'common sense' is the correct one? You see that this whole debate is about YOU not getting something because YOUR knowledge and background doesn't grasp it. So i'm a kafiroen because YOUR 'common sense' is the judge here. So it is not God who is warning me but it is YOUR 'common sense' that is warning me and believes i'm going to Gehenna. Well you are on very dangerous grounds AB, as YOUR 'common sense' can maybe fall a bit short on certain things.
You interpretated yourself it has to be a metaphor using 20124-125.
and 126 and 127 as well my interpretation does not create any of the zillions of conflicts and non sensible meanings as your interpretation does
Based on YOUR common sense and view, i wouldn't expect anything else then to see my view as such.
NO I donlt get it because your interpretation will create zillions of many conflicts and non sense in the Quran, this will be explained in many of long comments that will be prepared for this thread
It creates contradictions in YOUR mind, not in mine or other people's mind. And you can make a new thread with AB's view of Gehenna and Djenna, from now on i would like to keep this thread for the people who want to discuss the meanings of the verses. AB, how can i discuss with you as you even believe God sits on a real throne? Our views are too different. You think i'm a happy go-go believer, but you don't understand a comma of my article as you don't understand the psychological and philosophical background of my approach. Our common senses lay to far apart. So you want to force your common sense on to me? I have to follow your background information which let you to these conclusions? Your way of determining what is metaphorical when it is not mentioned as such? What is your authority?
This whole debate is about YOU AB, not if it is not in the Quran, but if YOUR mind grasps it or not. So it is not God who judges me, but YOU, YOU don't know for certain if YOUR common sense is good enough to judge my ideas, except in your own mind, how do you know for sure it is also God's point of view? YOUR 'common sense' doesn't accept my article which i respect, but your condemnation is crossing the borders.
Peace
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Yes, and my common sense takes Gehenna and Djenna also different.
Your common sense attributed lies to Allah
My common sense did not
You manipulated the Arabic word using some other languages as well suggesting that Jahannam in the Quran means a valley in some other place on earth, again a clear cut case of deceiving and lying about Allah,
The verse 28 comes really handy in describing those so called Muslims whose actions is anything but submitting to Allah and submitting to what He said clearly in His Quran so they manipulate it to suit their low desires
'common sense' comes from the knowledge and view you have, it depends on your background.
what knowledge do you have in the Arabic language?
If you don?t then please be reasonable mister
I can?t challenge you in your own language neither you can to mine , unfortunately for you the language of the Quran is my native language and you will never be able to challenge in it as I will never be able to challenge in your own language, that is why you needed to resort to Greek language to justify your manipulation to the Arabic language, this is total dishonesty and to be honest U BS, sorry
My 'common sense' is different then yours. What is 'common sense' to you then?
Fine but if you will use your common sense and your ignorance in the Arabic language, then your opponent is not ignorant in the Arabic language that you are trying hard to manipulate using other languages, this is enough to make it easy for me to expose your ignorance with the language which will lead to your ignorance with the Quran especially you are trying to inject new ideas that is on clear conflict with the Quran.
What the majority on earth will accept? Common sense is based on what YOU know and understand.
There is no question that my Arabic knowledge is far better than yours, this is not a show off as many here try hard to portray me along with defaming my language, this is a truthful fact that you need to know how to handle it because I will always be after any non sense of insights if any dare to use the Arabic Quran to justify it, then we leave it to the public.
So condemning something based on YOUR common sense has no authority at all accept in YOUR own mind.
Not really my common sense, I will prove it to the public later on this very post using the Quran alone not my low desires
Because YOU believe it contradicts the Quran.
Come on, just give me a chance and I will prove it inshaallah, relax bro, the showtime has not started yet.
I have checked every verse,
And why you didn?t post your well founded researches?
Don?t worry I will do it for you inshaallah
and it doesn't contradict at all from MY point of view.
Good for you, now I need a chance to state my point of view, I guess your article that earned you a lot of cheers should have all the evidences, right?
But we approach verses totaly different
Of course because you lack Arabic and I don?t
You use other languages to manipulate the Arabic language, and I don?t
You say things about Allah that He never said and I don?t
Therefore yes we are different, that is something I agree with you, I hope today is another happy day
as you even believe God has ears and sits on a real throne.
A clear cut lie, don?t lie or Santa won?t come to you
You stopped our debate about God being everything as you lost it back then,
I don?t debate to win or lose mister, I debate to expose the false, if you think you won, then congratulation, well done
your view is contradicting the Quran many times also from MY point of view.
A clear cut lie, don?t lie or Santa won?t come to you
This is different from your usual stance
peace bro
yes mate, it is the most safe path is to not to invent any metaphires and associate that cojecture to Allah, because He never said as such, also He always tells us in advance that here is a metaphor, so why following guesses?
my concern is regarding those who say that the story of Moses is a metaphor, or part of it like removing his shoe, well if that ios the case then the fire was a metaphor, his white hand was a metaphor and the snake was a metaphor and all the humans who believe in the Quran are being deceived by their god because all these were metaphores and he never told us a s such but he selected a few other things that are obviously metaphores and told us in advance "here is a metaphor", well the complication is now like this, we can not really know for certain which one is a metaphor if the message is that encrypted
cheers
- Allah said in advance "Here is a parable"
- The verse has enough logic and common sense to conclusively confirm that it is a metaphor
trying hard to manipulate again, my stance is exactly the same, look at point 2 above, but I?m glad that I will keep you busy reading my old comments looking for contradictions, I can do this with others and I?m very good at it especially if I will add humour to it, but do you think I?m idiot enough to waste my time doing this childish and schoolie games?
So now you use your 'common sense' to believe it is a metaphor?
I use the Quran context and the facts around me as my common sense, I never invent any thing really, yes I use the clear common sense to prove that it is a metaphor and yes it will be my common sense if you want to call it this way.
But you will not allow me to do that as YOUR 'common sense' doesn't accept it and sees contradictions.
Stop being emotional and give me a chance to bring the verses and we will see what your common sense have to say
Remember it is YOUR mind that sees contradictions based on YOUR knowledge and background.
Sure and also based on the Quran context that ?it can?t have a contradiction?, so give me a bloody chance because I will have a list of contradictions to you that you will need to clear out
So YOU are the judge if something is a metaphor or not based on YOUR 'common sense'?
For my own conclusions, yes, for something between me and you I reckon we need official judges, let?s nominate a few and have a damn serious debate with rules now if you wish.
Your 'common sense' is based on what YOU know.
And one of the things I know well for 40 years is the Arabic language, unfortunately you lack that important part of you want to be a Quran scholar, however I?m not a Quran scholar, I?m out there to expose the false claims people promote using the Quran, it does not matter you are sunni, shia, muslim, christian, jews, hindu, atheist, quran aloner, my brother, my mother, or stranger to me I will still expose your false claims if it is false according to the Arabic Quran
Maybe YOU don't know some things which is the reason YOUR 'common sense' doesn't grasp my article.
I don?t really care about your article, I asked you the question ?Is Jahannam a PHYSICAL PLACE or not?, you said it is a state of mind, this is where I believe I have cornered you, and please don?t confuse the subject, we only need to discuss this point now ?Is Jahannam a PHYSICAL PLACE or not?
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I remember the valley of tawa debate well, and it was because YOUR common sense didn't see any weirdness in taking of sandals in the middle of a valley. But many people 'common sense' didn't accept it.
Well, don?t confuse the subject bro, this is irrelevant to our discussion here however my common sense accepted what Allah said, the others common sense didn?t accept what Allah said and they manipulated it and said it never happened for real, who is the idiot here who have no common sense?
Where do you take the authority that YOUR 'common sense' is the correct one?
I didn?t take any authority from any one neither I have one, I?m using my words only on a public forum and will continue to do as such
You see that this whole debate is about YOU not getting something because YOUR knowledge and background doesn't grasp it.
My knowledge in here is Quran knowledge so if you prove to me that the Quran said the hell is a state of mind then I will grasp it, but for you to do so you need to respond to a list of verses I?m preparing to this thread.
So i'm a kafiroen because YOUR 'common sense' is the judge here.
No, these verse are the judge here
Say My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed, and sin and rebellion without justice, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority, and that you say against Allah what you do not know.
(33)
Let?s analyse this crystal clear verse just in case it is hard for some
-> The verse starts by telling Mohammad to Say ? Say My Lord has only prohibited?, clearly the word used ?Harram?, i.e. ? prohibited ?, now here is what is Haram as read from this crystal clear verse
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? ?, ? indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed?
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? ?, ? and sin?
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? ?, ? and rebellion without justice?
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? ?, ? and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority?
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? ?, ? and that you say against Allah what you do not know.?
Now please tell me bro, how bloody plain is that?, come on, you bloody claim to have understood the Quran, hmmm, why you don?t understand the above then?, I can?t believe this bro, this is sort of you are trying hard to look smart, ok man before you try to look smart here it is again, what Allah said that is HARAM from 733
- ? ?, ? and that you say against Allah what you do not know.?
Clearly from the above that saying things that we don?t know about Allah is HARAM, in fact it will be following Satan and this is shirk
168- O men! eat the lawful and good things out of what is in the earth, and do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.
169- He only enjoins you evil and indecency, and that you may speak against Allah what you do not know.
(16
(169)-> So to say Jahannam is a state of mind while Allah never said that is following ? the footsteps of the Shaitan?, because you followed what he told you to do which is ? that you may speak against Allah what you do not know? and according to the following verse it is clear cut shirk
And Satan will say when the matter is decided "It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to invite you but ye listened to me then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with Allah. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty."
(22)
-> See, when the JD verdict is passed, Iblis will tell whoever he managed to invite ? And Satan will say when the matter is decided It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth (2-169) I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you.?, the fact of the matter is, Satan never had authority on us but a mere invitation ? I had no authority over you except to invite you but ye listened to me?, but he can?t be blamed because he didn?t force them ? then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls.?, in fact is, both will be crying hard at that time ? I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine.?, then he will tell them that their actions was SHIRK ? I reject your former act in associating me with Allah.?
Allah clearly told us that He PREPARED Jahannam for the Kafiroon, i.e. it has to be a PHYSICAL place
And (that) He may punish the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women, and the polytheistic men and the polytheistic women, the entertainers of evil thoughts about Allah. On them is the evil turn, and Allah is wroth with them and has cursed them and prepared hell for them, and evil is the resort.
(6)
-> See ? and has cursed them and prepared hell for them, and evil is the resort?
So it is not God who is warning me but it is YOUR 'common sense' that is warning me and believes i'm going to Gehenna. Well you are on very dangerous grounds AB, as YOUR 'common sense' can maybe fall a bit short on certain things.
Well, Allah has warned you above in the verses I posted and I still have a whole heap of verses to post, please bear with me for long time as I decided to concentrate on this subject to irrefutably expose your Jahannam ignorance
You interpretated yourself it has to be a metaphor using 20124-125.
and 126 and 127 as well my interpretation does not create any of the zillions of conflicts and non sensible meanings as your interpretation does
Haha, nice try but I say you are only assuming, just bloody give me some time to bring more verses and stop crying please, thanks
Based on YOUR common sense and view, i wouldn't expect anything else then to see my view as such.
Good for you and for me, now we need to leave it to the public so they have their own views
It creates contradictions in YOUR mind,
Well, respond to the first contradiction then ? and has cursed them and prepared hell for them, and evil is the resort? (486), I have plenty more, you should worry actually
not in mine or other people's mind.
good for you, but I don?t talk on others mind behalf, do you?
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And you can make a new thread with AB's view of Gehenna and Djenna, from now on i would like to keep this thread for the people who want to discuss the meanings of the verses.
Excuse me, that was really silly request that only suggest you are desperate, sorry I will post and respond to any thread I wish, I can not directed to you if you wish?, this I can do
AB, how can i discuss with you as you even believe God sits on a real throne?
Repeating, repeating, you are sure desperate, hmmmm, I answered that once before to you and about 6 times to CavemanDoctor, now let me answer you again
A clear cut lie, don?t lie or Santa won?t come to you
Our views are too different.
Didn?t you say that before and I agreed, hhmmmm
You think i'm a happy go-go believer,
No no, I don?t think you are a believer at all, because you don?t believe Allah when he said ? and has cursed them and prepared hell for them, and evil is the resort? (486), as well you didn?t listen to Him when he told you ? and do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy? (216, because the Shaitan ordered you to ? that you may speak against Allah what you do not know? (2169), and you listened to him ? I had no authority over you except to invite you but ye listened to me? (1422) and said that Jahannam is not real place rather a state of mind you even claimed that if it is a place it has to be a valley on earth, and you committed a huge sin by committing a huge Sin ?Say My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed, and sin and rebellion without justice, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority, and that you say against Allah what you do not know? (733), and because you followed Satan after he invited you to say about Allah what you don?t know you became a mushrik ? . I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with Allah.? (1422)
but you don't understand a comma of my article
hmmm, I?m really glad I don?t, I don?t need your article, I have all Allah Articles in my own native language, do you consider me a fool or what?
as you don't understand the psychological and philosophical background of my approach.
Glad I do not, but what that has to do with the Arabic Quran?
Our common senses lay to far apart.
Not sure if you said that before or not, but I agree anyway
So you want to force your common sense on to me?
How did I tried to do that?
I need a compelling evidence please or will be considered a clear cut lie, remember Santa
I have to follow your background information which let you to these conclusions?
No no, please don?t, you can consider me a stupid writer and just wasting my time on forums
Your way of determining what is metaphorical when it is not mentioned as such? What is your authority?
Didn?t you ask that one before?, hold on
Ahmed is scrolling up the pages
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?Damn you did asked that question about Authority before, of well, you need to scroll up and find my answer
This whole debate is about YOU AB, not if it is not in the Quran, but if YOUR mind grasps it or not. So it is not God who judges me, but YOU, YOU don't know for certain if YOUR common sense is good enough to judge my ideas, except in your own mind, how do you know for sure it is also God's point of view? YOUR 'common sense' doesn't accept my article which i respect, but your condemnation is crossing the borders.
Peace
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I guess your ending was a sum up to all the question you repeatedly asked, so you may also scroll up and find the answers, anyway the movie I?m making is looks great so far, I only did the into, LOL, I?m putting a lot of effort here mate, thanks for inspiring me to make that movie I actually thanked you in the intro, so your name will appear on TV bro, LOL, I don?t think you will like the sound track though, it is a bit loud and very very fast, but that was the purpose to suit the horrific scenes described in the Quran regarding the real and physical place ?Jahannam?
Cheers
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Peace AB,
This back-and-forth is very unfruitful. I await your post on the verses that you are preparing to conclusively show that Jahannam is a physical place.
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Peace AB,
This back-and-forth is very unfruitful. I await your post on the verses that you are preparing to conclusively show that Jahannam is a physical place.
Peace Mate
I agree with you, I hate the back and forth thingy, yep that is between me and whoever "the verses of the Quran" and let these verses speak without any manipiulation to the words, there are loads of these verses actually because we have two words that we will look for, "Al Nar" and "Jahnnam", possibly Hell was described using other words but let's just deal with the se two words, I'm actually busy because I have work that is way due now as well I'm making the Jahannam movie, however the movie is related to the subject because i will uses verses from the Quran
can you please respond to the verse in my comment to Arnold, that Allah said he PREPARED Jahannam for them to be their RESORT? what does that means to you "Allah PREPARED Jahannam"?
Cheers
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Peace AB
That is really not great evidence for your argument.
What I'm about to say, realize that it's not me doubting Allah's words or adding on my own manipulation. Realize that I'm talking about human language, and how it can mean many different things.
You say that 486 shows it is a physical place because Allah prepared it. So I ask you, why? Why does prepare have to mean physical? Again, I'm not trying to add on my own lies. I'm simply looking at the language and realizing it can mean more than one thing.
Can you explain to me the bridge between "prepare" and "physical." It's clear to me that you're taking a leap there, and that leap is your own preconceived notion. You see, the word "prepare" doesn't just refer to physical places or things. If one approaches the language with the idea that it ONLY refers to physical places, then yes, you see that verse, and you say it means physical place. But the language doesn't subscribe to your assumptions. "Prepare" can mean non-physical things too.
I'll give a few examples to show what I mean.
- I prepared my garden. <---that's a physical place, you're right. That's one way to use the word "prepare."
- I prepared food. <---again, physical. you're right.
But what about this?
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I'm prepared for my exam. <---Is that physical? No, in fact, that's a mental state. I am in the prepared mental state for my exam.
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God has prepared the moral laws for humanity. <---Is that physical? Are laws physical things?
Let's use a verse from the quran.
Any one of you who obeys GOD and His messenger, and leads a righteous life, we will grant her double the recompense, and we have prepared for her a generous provision.
Does the generous provision here have to be a physical place? Why cant the "prepare" that Allah did mean that He prepared this certain law of benefit, this law of "double the recompense." Allah has prepared the universe and the afterlife with various laws and causes and effects. We see this througout the Quran. In 3331, Allah has prepared a special law a law that states the wives of the prophet will be given double the recompense.
My point is, AB, that language can be used in many ways. In 418, Allah is talking about death "coming" to the people. Now, when we normally see the word "come," we think of a physical movement ("He's coming home from work" but it is not always a physical movement. When Allah says death is "coming," does that mean an actual physical thing or creature is coming at the person? No, it's a figure of speech. It means death is upon the person, it is soon.
Just to use a few more examples (relevant to punishment and misery)
Let's say I hit my foot on the desk and it hurts. Often people will say "Ouch! I'm in pain." Now, does that mean the person is IN a place called pain? Are they in a city named Pain? No, they are "in" pain in the sense that they are experiencing pain, they have a painful mental state.
Other phrases apply too "I'm in misery." "I'm in joy." People even say "I'm in heaven" sometimes when they're really happy. Does that mean these people are inside of actual physical places called Misery, Joy, and Heaven? No, they are expressions of mental states, of feelings.
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Bro I'm at work but I'm not going to do the back and forth as you suggested, I will continue posting more verses and you can reposnd to them without me responding back to save time
Now let?s see what you have to say to this verse which clearly says the Kuffar will be roasted in the fire and their skins will be replaced with fresh skins to taste the burning, Bro, do you believe Allah that this will happen or not as He said in 456?, Did Allah say it is a state of mind bro?, well if you are physically burning in fire, what will be your state of mind bro?
Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
(56)
To be continued.....
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Peace bro,
This is where the metaphorical comes into play. You yourself admitted that you can use common sense to interpret something as metaphor.
Using common sense, I can interpret this verse about our julood as metaphorical as well, can I not? I know, you're probably going to say it must be physical because our skins are physical things.
But of course there are other verses that include anatomical parts that are metaphorical
The Jews even said, "GOD's hand is tied down!" It is their hands that are tied down. They are condemned for uttering such a blasphemy. Instead, His hands are wide open, spending as He wills. For certain, your Lord's revelations to you will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Consequently, we have committed them to animosity and hatred among themselves until the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they ignite the flames of war, GOD puts them out. They roam the earth wickedly, and GOD dislikes the evildoers.
Brother, does this verse mean Allah has actual physical hands? It's an anatomical physical part just like the skin, and yet I think common sense would dictate that Allah doesn't have actual hands. Rather, His "hands" here just means His resources, His bounty. That's why Allah says His hands are wide open and that He "spends as He wills."
So why is this Allah's hand taken as metaphor, and yet we cant take the human skin as a metaphor as well? I can very easily interpret the verse to mean that our misery in the hereafter will never subside, it will never decrease. That the punishment will be renewed and repeated. Metaphorical. I don't think that's twisting Allah's words. If it is, then anyone who says Allah doesnt have real hands is also twisting Allah's words.
Also see 757 where Allah sends wind with His hands. Clearly that's metaphorical; He's not actually waving His hands to give wind to us. Also see 5147, 671, etc.
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Peace,
AB, it is sad you took my post in such a way. That you speak arabic has nothing to do with understanding it or not. I know some translations contain mistakes and i always try to research them as hard as i can, but that you know arabic has nothing to do with this. As for 'lying and twisting in Greek'. The word Jahannam has a background that is centuries old, most of the middle-east languages have a connection with it. This has nothing to do with Greek language. Just like everybody knows Yathrib refers to Medina, Jahannam refers to the valley south of Jerusalem, this is pure linguistic history, and there is no way you can escape it. Go ask any expert in Arabic language where the word Jahannam comes from...And the throne thing, i see i said it wrong, i meant that you take the throne physically, but instead of correcting me, you go the 'lie' thing. You misunderstood half of my post, the authority not on this forum, but the authority to call somebody a kafir based on your interpretation of the Quran, this is dangerous...You take your 'common sense' over everybody elses, and i don't mean the arabic knowledge, i mean everything you know about psychology, science and so on, because 'common sense' is something personal. I know a guy who would believe that kafirs really go blind when he would read that verse, so his common sense uses different knowledge to come to his conclusions. That was the whole point of the post.
Plus, it would have been wiser to first give the verses that you believe contradict, before you would have screamed kafir. Cavemen already answered the way i would.
I could have said i have prepared joy for you. Does this refer to a physical place, or a mental experience?
As for the skins, i see them to as metaphorical, just like the wall between heaven and hell, which is also called a veil in 746, which showes it is a barrier not easy to brake, but at the same time it is so thin as a veil. But the people of Djenna can see and talk with the people of Jahannam, how is this possible if there is a wall between them which they do not cross?Just give any verse and we will discuss them.
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Peace bro,
This is where the metaphorical comes into play. You yourself admitted that you can use common sense to interpret something as metaphor.
Using common sense, I can interpret this verse about our julood as metaphorical as well, can I not? I know, you're probably going to say it must be physical because our skins are physical things.
But of course there are other verses that include anatomical parts that are metaphorical
The Jews even said, "GOD's hand is tied down!" It is their hands that are tied down. They are condemned for uttering such a blasphemy. Instead, His hands are wide open, spending as He wills. For certain, your Lord's revelations to you will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Consequently, we have committed them to animosity and hatred among themselves until the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they ignite the flames of war, GOD puts them out. They roam the earth wickedly, and GOD dislikes the evildoers.
Brother, does this verse mean Allah has actual physical hands? It's an anatomical physical part just like the skin, and yet I think common sense would dictate that Allah doesn't have actual hands. Rather, His "hands" here just means His resources, His bounty. That's why Allah says His hands are wide open and that He "spends as He wills."
So why is this Allah's hand taken as metaphor, and yet we cant take the human skin as a metaphor as well? I can very easily interpret the verse to mean that our misery in the hereafter will never subside, it will never decrease. That the punishment will be renewed and repeated. Metaphorical. I don't think that's twisting Allah's words. If it is, then anyone who says Allah doesnt have real hands is also twisting Allah's words.
Also see 757 where Allah sends wind with His hands. Clearly that's metaphorical; He's not actually waving His hands to give wind to us. Also see 5147, 671, etc.
Again bro
donlt confuse the subject, I'm not discussing Allah hand here, however yest Allah has hands as stated in anther verse that He created Adam with it, now for what the jews said, yes it is a metaphor because this is commonly known that the hand is the symbol of being generous
now I would like to see how you will explain the verse of the skin, i noticed you said you can but then you didn't, what you did after was confusing the subject to something else, LOL
nice try brother
for the other verses about the wind, I will skip them for now as I'm concentrating on Jahannam ok, pleasy donlt confuse the subject again
cheers
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As I said I'm preparing the movie and from the movie i will get the verses, can't you be a bit patient or what? oh yeh you want to make it look as I'm try to have a runner, LOL
be patient please
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Peace,
Did we say anything that you have to hurry? We just said to post the verses. You make things up that aren't there...
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Peace,
Did we say anything that you have to hurry? We just said to post the verses. You make things up that aren't there...
ok but remember, no subject confusion
THE SUBJECT IN HAND IS JAHANNAM
Also why the hell I need to ask an arbic expert to know what Jahnnam means?, even if I donlt know what it means, Allah has described it in details in the Quran, so why presenting some silly whatever?
salam
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Hello Public
Let have a break from this tough movie, here is one of the many contradictions Arnold created with his insight that Jahannam I a state of mind
O you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.
(6)
Now how the Angels are over the state of our minds ? over it are angels stern and strong,?, and why they have to be ? stern and strong,?, and how humans and stones will be the fuel of our state of minds ? a fire whose fuel is men and stones;??
Thanks
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Hello Public
Here a few interesting verses
13- The day on which they shall be driven away to the fire of hell with violence.
14- (And it is said unto them) This is the Fire which ye were wont to deny.
15- Is it magic then or do you not see?
16- Enter into it, then bear (it) patiently, or do not bear (it) patiently, it is the same to you; you shall be requited only (for) what you did.(13)
(14)
(15)
(16)-> In verse 13, On the JD the Kafiroon ?the ones who didn?t believe that Jahannam is a physical and real place will be driven to it with violence ?The day on which they shall be driven away to the fire of hell with violence.?, how they will be driven to their state of mind with violence?
-> In verse 14, This is a good one, ?(And it is said unto them) This is the Fire which ye were wont to deny.?, well this message is for ANYONE who said it is not for real, now how they denied the sate of mind?, UNLESS THIS MESSAGE IS FOR ME.
-> In verse 15, Now if it is really a state of mind how this verse makes sense ?Is it magic then or do you not see??, see that Allah used the verse ?SEE? to them, i.e. they will visualise Jahannam with their own EYES.
-> In verse 16, we read that they will enter, now how they will enter a state of mind?? Enter into it?, in fact the Arabic word ?Isluha? is not ?Enter it? rather ?Contact it?, i.e. they will contact the fire for real that is why Allah said to them ? , then bear (it) patiently, or do not bear (it) patiently, it is the same to you; you shall be requited only (for) what you did?
Salam
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Peace,
A person asked me this on a other forum
740
Surely, those who reject our revelations and are too arrogant to uphold them, the gates of the sky will never open for them, nor will they enter Paradise until the camel passes through the needle's eye. We thus requite the guilty.
Well some of what you have written is interesting and the perspective is unique,but there are some parts I would like o discuss and question.Firstly, the above verse indicates the disbelievers never enter paradise.So how did you come to the conclusion that everyone will eventually reach the level of djenna?Also,like u mentioned,prohibition is only till the condition exists,why could it not be that all the disbelievers who are in a hellish state of mind,will be annihiliated,meaning will cease to exist anymore after a God given period of time??There are verses to indicate disbelievers losing their souls etc,and this idea of annihiliation of the subjects from their hellish state of mind,is in line with God being merciful too.
79
As for those whose weights are light, they will be the ones who lost their souls, as a consequence of disregarding our revelations, unjustly
And this was my answer
Look at the verse, it says when the people will not accept God's wahi's. So when they will finally do, it will be possible, as then they can form the right mindstate. As long people will not accept God's guidance, they and the whole society will not create Djenna in their mind and surroundings. So it refers that we need God's guidance as humans themselves will never ever have the means by themselves to find out what makes a perfect society.God says people will be in Jahannam as long as He wants, which to me refers to that people will accept the truth. Jahannam is also called maula/protector in 5715 of the rejectors, as refering it to be a between phase, and also called umm/mother in 1019, which refers that Jahannam is a between phase of being born empty and growing to the higher reality. As death is only one phase in the evolution of the mind. So is a Jahannam mindstate only a between-phase between believing in illusion and reality, which is why everyone will see Jahannam, once in their excistence 1971.
As for loosing their nafs, this refers to that they are in stagnation. They will not evolve based on what they did in their lives, they are neither living or dead. So when they are resurrected in the new universe, they will have the same mind state as they had in their first lives, as they are stuck behind Jahim/barriere. Being stuck in the Fire/Jahim, refers that any truth or logic will be burned and will not reach them, and so their nafs will be stuck in that position. But the persons who did worked to develop their nafs, they will be in a garden that will make them evolve. People with their minds in Jahannam cannot evolve as all of their thoughts and deeds are like fire, consuming and destroying any progress.
That Jahannam is a between phase can also be seen at the use of fitnah in 2191, 292&10, where it refers to the trials for the believers. Fitnah comes from the meaning of purifying gold or throwing in rubbish to the fire. Which refers to loosing illusions that will create bad fruits/results, as they are confronted with the truth during those fitnah's. The gold=nafs must be cleaned of all veils/illusions as in 1746, so it can attain the higher mindstate. In 3763 people in Jahannam will also get fitnah, which refers to the tree of zaqum.
As shown by the word Djenna=garden covered in foilage, the ground refers to the nafs which has certain knowledge, which will create certain deeds=trees, and the fruits are it's results. So is the tree of zaqum a deed which is called a fitnah 3763, a purifying deed. Zaqum means literally, a tree with small round leaves without thornes, it has a penetrating smell and is bitter, the tips of the leaves are filthy tasting.
So for them it is purifying, but this purifying will be experienced as eating something filthy. This can be seen now, when rejectors hear revelations, they act as they are taking in something filthy, while it is a purifying thing without them knowing. Thus is my reason to believe Jahannam is only a between phase of illusion and truth, accepting and rejecting wahi in this life as well in the next. It represents mindstates, and this mindstate will influence your surroundings. So it can create a destructive society, from which they will learn that only through God's revelation we can attain the higher level of progress. So the destruction is indeed at the same time a fitnah.
Peace AB
I'll try to answer AB how i approach these verses
O you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.
(6)
Now how the Angels are over the state of our minds ? over it are angels stern and strong,?, and why they have to be ? stern and strong,?, and how humans and stones will be the fuel of our state of minds ? a fire whose fuel is men and stones;??
I don't like the meaning 'angels' as the word malikah has a different meaning. Malikah comes from M-L-K, realm/kingdom/authority/control, so i would rather translate malikah as the ones in control/authority. for me there are different types of malikah, and in this verse to me it refers to natural laws of cause and effect.
That the Jahim's fuel is men, refer to that only humans can be in this mindstate, and the stones to me refer to stubborness or rockhard convictions in their hearts, as the hearts of the rejectors are called harder then rocks in 274
- Yet, in spite of this, your hearts only hardened like rocks or even harder, but among rocks are those from which rivers flow; and there are also those which split open and water gushes forth; as well as those that roll down for fear of God. And God is not negligent of all that you do.
And indeed the next verses are interresting
5213 A time(yaumwe) they are being called repeatedly to Hell's fire , repelling/pushing away violently and roughly.
14 This (is) the fire which you were with it lying/denying .
15 So is magic/sorcery that (so is that magic/sorcery)? Or you do not see/look/understand?
16 Roast/suffer it , so be patient or do not be patient, (it is) equal/alike on (to) you, but/truly you are being reimbursed what you were making/doing.Yaumwe in 5213 doesn't mean day specifically, but can mean any time period from each moment 5529 as 50.000 years in 704. If you read the whole chapter, to me it talks about having societies based on the Quran or societies based on human's thinking. In the end a society not based on God's wahi will fall into misery, and will make the people be caught in the Fire/Jahim, as there will be no more progress for them. They never expected this to happen as they thought they can do it themselves as shown in verse 15. That they will have to face the consequences of their thinking and doings which they performed can be seen in verse 16, where they will be confronted with their results(fruits) of their deeds. Like i said, it is your mindstate that will determine your deeds. So if the mindstate is not based on God's truth, the fruits will not give good results in the end and will cause destruction.
Compared to the people who do follow the revelation/wahi of God, which will give them the knowledge of a perfect society and mindstate, and will give them perfect results/fruits. Which can be seen beautifully with the verses 5217 to 28. And will make them progress, and thus make their nafs to a higher in the next life.
Peace