Djenna & Gehenna; explanation
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Peace AB
That is really not great evidence for your argument.
What I'm about to say, realize that it's not me doubting Allah's words or adding on my own manipulation. Realize that I'm talking about human language, and how it can mean many different things.
You say that 486 shows it is a physical place because Allah prepared it. So I ask you, why? Why does prepare have to mean physical? Again, I'm not trying to add on my own lies. I'm simply looking at the language and realizing it can mean more than one thing.
Can you explain to me the bridge between "prepare" and "physical." It's clear to me that you're taking a leap there, and that leap is your own preconceived notion. You see, the word "prepare" doesn't just refer to physical places or things. If one approaches the language with the idea that it ONLY refers to physical places, then yes, you see that verse, and you say it means physical place. But the language doesn't subscribe to your assumptions. "Prepare" can mean non-physical things too.
I'll give a few examples to show what I mean.
- I prepared my garden. <---that's a physical place, you're right. That's one way to use the word "prepare."
- I prepared food. <---again, physical. you're right.
But what about this?
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I'm prepared for my exam. <---Is that physical? No, in fact, that's a mental state. I am in the prepared mental state for my exam.
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God has prepared the moral laws for humanity. <---Is that physical? Are laws physical things?
Let's use a verse from the quran.
Any one of you who obeys GOD and His messenger, and leads a righteous life, we will grant her double the recompense, and we have prepared for her a generous provision.
Does the generous provision here have to be a physical place? Why cant the "prepare" that Allah did mean that He prepared this certain law of benefit, this law of "double the recompense." Allah has prepared the universe and the afterlife with various laws and causes and effects. We see this througout the Quran. In 3331, Allah has prepared a special law a law that states the wives of the prophet will be given double the recompense.
My point is, AB, that language can be used in many ways. In 418, Allah is talking about death "coming" to the people. Now, when we normally see the word "come," we think of a physical movement ("He's coming home from work" but it is not always a physical movement. When Allah says death is "coming," does that mean an actual physical thing or creature is coming at the person? No, it's a figure of speech. It means death is upon the person, it is soon.
Just to use a few more examples (relevant to punishment and misery)
Let's say I hit my foot on the desk and it hurts. Often people will say "Ouch! I'm in pain." Now, does that mean the person is IN a place called pain? Are they in a city named Pain? No, they are "in" pain in the sense that they are experiencing pain, they have a painful mental state.
Other phrases apply too "I'm in misery." "I'm in joy." People even say "I'm in heaven" sometimes when they're really happy. Does that mean these people are inside of actual physical places called Misery, Joy, and Heaven? No, they are expressions of mental states, of feelings.
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Bro I'm at work but I'm not going to do the back and forth as you suggested, I will continue posting more verses and you can reposnd to them without me responding back to save time
Now let?s see what you have to say to this verse which clearly says the Kuffar will be roasted in the fire and their skins will be replaced with fresh skins to taste the burning, Bro, do you believe Allah that this will happen or not as He said in 456?, Did Allah say it is a state of mind bro?, well if you are physically burning in fire, what will be your state of mind bro?
Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
(56)
To be continued.....
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Peace bro,
This is where the metaphorical comes into play. You yourself admitted that you can use common sense to interpret something as metaphor.
Using common sense, I can interpret this verse about our julood as metaphorical as well, can I not? I know, you're probably going to say it must be physical because our skins are physical things.
But of course there are other verses that include anatomical parts that are metaphorical
The Jews even said, "GOD's hand is tied down!" It is their hands that are tied down. They are condemned for uttering such a blasphemy. Instead, His hands are wide open, spending as He wills. For certain, your Lord's revelations to you will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Consequently, we have committed them to animosity and hatred among themselves until the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they ignite the flames of war, GOD puts them out. They roam the earth wickedly, and GOD dislikes the evildoers.
Brother, does this verse mean Allah has actual physical hands? It's an anatomical physical part just like the skin, and yet I think common sense would dictate that Allah doesn't have actual hands. Rather, His "hands" here just means His resources, His bounty. That's why Allah says His hands are wide open and that He "spends as He wills."
So why is this Allah's hand taken as metaphor, and yet we cant take the human skin as a metaphor as well? I can very easily interpret the verse to mean that our misery in the hereafter will never subside, it will never decrease. That the punishment will be renewed and repeated. Metaphorical. I don't think that's twisting Allah's words. If it is, then anyone who says Allah doesnt have real hands is also twisting Allah's words.
Also see 757 where Allah sends wind with His hands. Clearly that's metaphorical; He's not actually waving His hands to give wind to us. Also see 5147, 671, etc.
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Peace,
AB, it is sad you took my post in such a way. That you speak arabic has nothing to do with understanding it or not. I know some translations contain mistakes and i always try to research them as hard as i can, but that you know arabic has nothing to do with this. As for 'lying and twisting in Greek'. The word Jahannam has a background that is centuries old, most of the middle-east languages have a connection with it. This has nothing to do with Greek language. Just like everybody knows Yathrib refers to Medina, Jahannam refers to the valley south of Jerusalem, this is pure linguistic history, and there is no way you can escape it. Go ask any expert in Arabic language where the word Jahannam comes from...And the throne thing, i see i said it wrong, i meant that you take the throne physically, but instead of correcting me, you go the 'lie' thing. You misunderstood half of my post, the authority not on this forum, but the authority to call somebody a kafir based on your interpretation of the Quran, this is dangerous...You take your 'common sense' over everybody elses, and i don't mean the arabic knowledge, i mean everything you know about psychology, science and so on, because 'common sense' is something personal. I know a guy who would believe that kafirs really go blind when he would read that verse, so his common sense uses different knowledge to come to his conclusions. That was the whole point of the post.
Plus, it would have been wiser to first give the verses that you believe contradict, before you would have screamed kafir. Cavemen already answered the way i would.
I could have said i have prepared joy for you. Does this refer to a physical place, or a mental experience?
As for the skins, i see them to as metaphorical, just like the wall between heaven and hell, which is also called a veil in 746, which showes it is a barrier not easy to brake, but at the same time it is so thin as a veil. But the people of Djenna can see and talk with the people of Jahannam, how is this possible if there is a wall between them which they do not cross?Just give any verse and we will discuss them.
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Peace bro,
This is where the metaphorical comes into play. You yourself admitted that you can use common sense to interpret something as metaphor.
Using common sense, I can interpret this verse about our julood as metaphorical as well, can I not? I know, you're probably going to say it must be physical because our skins are physical things.
But of course there are other verses that include anatomical parts that are metaphorical
The Jews even said, "GOD's hand is tied down!" It is their hands that are tied down. They are condemned for uttering such a blasphemy. Instead, His hands are wide open, spending as He wills. For certain, your Lord's revelations to you will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Consequently, we have committed them to animosity and hatred among themselves until the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they ignite the flames of war, GOD puts them out. They roam the earth wickedly, and GOD dislikes the evildoers.
Brother, does this verse mean Allah has actual physical hands? It's an anatomical physical part just like the skin, and yet I think common sense would dictate that Allah doesn't have actual hands. Rather, His "hands" here just means His resources, His bounty. That's why Allah says His hands are wide open and that He "spends as He wills."
So why is this Allah's hand taken as metaphor, and yet we cant take the human skin as a metaphor as well? I can very easily interpret the verse to mean that our misery in the hereafter will never subside, it will never decrease. That the punishment will be renewed and repeated. Metaphorical. I don't think that's twisting Allah's words. If it is, then anyone who says Allah doesnt have real hands is also twisting Allah's words.
Also see 757 where Allah sends wind with His hands. Clearly that's metaphorical; He's not actually waving His hands to give wind to us. Also see 5147, 671, etc.
Again bro
donlt confuse the subject, I'm not discussing Allah hand here, however yest Allah has hands as stated in anther verse that He created Adam with it, now for what the jews said, yes it is a metaphor because this is commonly known that the hand is the symbol of being generous
now I would like to see how you will explain the verse of the skin, i noticed you said you can but then you didn't, what you did after was confusing the subject to something else, LOL
nice try brother
for the other verses about the wind, I will skip them for now as I'm concentrating on Jahannam ok, pleasy donlt confuse the subject again
cheers
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As I said I'm preparing the movie and from the movie i will get the verses, can't you be a bit patient or what? oh yeh you want to make it look as I'm try to have a runner, LOL
be patient please
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Peace,
Did we say anything that you have to hurry? We just said to post the verses. You make things up that aren't there...
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Peace,
Did we say anything that you have to hurry? We just said to post the verses. You make things up that aren't there...
ok but remember, no subject confusion
THE SUBJECT IN HAND IS JAHANNAM
Also why the hell I need to ask an arbic expert to know what Jahnnam means?, even if I donlt know what it means, Allah has described it in details in the Quran, so why presenting some silly whatever?
salam
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Hello Public
Let have a break from this tough movie, here is one of the many contradictions Arnold created with his insight that Jahannam I a state of mind
O you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.
(6)
Now how the Angels are over the state of our minds ? over it are angels stern and strong,?, and why they have to be ? stern and strong,?, and how humans and stones will be the fuel of our state of minds ? a fire whose fuel is men and stones;??
Thanks
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Hello Public
Here a few interesting verses
13- The day on which they shall be driven away to the fire of hell with violence.
14- (And it is said unto them) This is the Fire which ye were wont to deny.
15- Is it magic then or do you not see?
16- Enter into it, then bear (it) patiently, or do not bear (it) patiently, it is the same to you; you shall be requited only (for) what you did.(13)
(14)
(15)
(16)-> In verse 13, On the JD the Kafiroon ?the ones who didn?t believe that Jahannam is a physical and real place will be driven to it with violence ?The day on which they shall be driven away to the fire of hell with violence.?, how they will be driven to their state of mind with violence?
-> In verse 14, This is a good one, ?(And it is said unto them) This is the Fire which ye were wont to deny.?, well this message is for ANYONE who said it is not for real, now how they denied the sate of mind?, UNLESS THIS MESSAGE IS FOR ME.
-> In verse 15, Now if it is really a state of mind how this verse makes sense ?Is it magic then or do you not see??, see that Allah used the verse ?SEE? to them, i.e. they will visualise Jahannam with their own EYES.
-> In verse 16, we read that they will enter, now how they will enter a state of mind?? Enter into it?, in fact the Arabic word ?Isluha? is not ?Enter it? rather ?Contact it?, i.e. they will contact the fire for real that is why Allah said to them ? , then bear (it) patiently, or do not bear (it) patiently, it is the same to you; you shall be requited only (for) what you did?
Salam
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Peace,
A person asked me this on a other forum
740
Surely, those who reject our revelations and are too arrogant to uphold them, the gates of the sky will never open for them, nor will they enter Paradise until the camel passes through the needle's eye. We thus requite the guilty.
Well some of what you have written is interesting and the perspective is unique,but there are some parts I would like o discuss and question.Firstly, the above verse indicates the disbelievers never enter paradise.So how did you come to the conclusion that everyone will eventually reach the level of djenna?Also,like u mentioned,prohibition is only till the condition exists,why could it not be that all the disbelievers who are in a hellish state of mind,will be annihiliated,meaning will cease to exist anymore after a God given period of time??There are verses to indicate disbelievers losing their souls etc,and this idea of annihiliation of the subjects from their hellish state of mind,is in line with God being merciful too.
79
As for those whose weights are light, they will be the ones who lost their souls, as a consequence of disregarding our revelations, unjustly
And this was my answer
Look at the verse, it says when the people will not accept God's wahi's. So when they will finally do, it will be possible, as then they can form the right mindstate. As long people will not accept God's guidance, they and the whole society will not create Djenna in their mind and surroundings. So it refers that we need God's guidance as humans themselves will never ever have the means by themselves to find out what makes a perfect society.God says people will be in Jahannam as long as He wants, which to me refers to that people will accept the truth. Jahannam is also called maula/protector in 5715 of the rejectors, as refering it to be a between phase, and also called umm/mother in 1019, which refers that Jahannam is a between phase of being born empty and growing to the higher reality. As death is only one phase in the evolution of the mind. So is a Jahannam mindstate only a between-phase between believing in illusion and reality, which is why everyone will see Jahannam, once in their excistence 1971.
As for loosing their nafs, this refers to that they are in stagnation. They will not evolve based on what they did in their lives, they are neither living or dead. So when they are resurrected in the new universe, they will have the same mind state as they had in their first lives, as they are stuck behind Jahim/barriere. Being stuck in the Fire/Jahim, refers that any truth or logic will be burned and will not reach them, and so their nafs will be stuck in that position. But the persons who did worked to develop their nafs, they will be in a garden that will make them evolve. People with their minds in Jahannam cannot evolve as all of their thoughts and deeds are like fire, consuming and destroying any progress.
That Jahannam is a between phase can also be seen at the use of fitnah in 2191, 292&10, where it refers to the trials for the believers. Fitnah comes from the meaning of purifying gold or throwing in rubbish to the fire. Which refers to loosing illusions that will create bad fruits/results, as they are confronted with the truth during those fitnah's. The gold=nafs must be cleaned of all veils/illusions as in 1746, so it can attain the higher mindstate. In 3763 people in Jahannam will also get fitnah, which refers to the tree of zaqum.
As shown by the word Djenna=garden covered in foilage, the ground refers to the nafs which has certain knowledge, which will create certain deeds=trees, and the fruits are it's results. So is the tree of zaqum a deed which is called a fitnah 3763, a purifying deed. Zaqum means literally, a tree with small round leaves without thornes, it has a penetrating smell and is bitter, the tips of the leaves are filthy tasting.
So for them it is purifying, but this purifying will be experienced as eating something filthy. This can be seen now, when rejectors hear revelations, they act as they are taking in something filthy, while it is a purifying thing without them knowing. Thus is my reason to believe Jahannam is only a between phase of illusion and truth, accepting and rejecting wahi in this life as well in the next. It represents mindstates, and this mindstate will influence your surroundings. So it can create a destructive society, from which they will learn that only through God's revelation we can attain the higher level of progress. So the destruction is indeed at the same time a fitnah.
Peace AB
I'll try to answer AB how i approach these verses
O you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.
(6)
Now how the Angels are over the state of our minds ? over it are angels stern and strong,?, and why they have to be ? stern and strong,?, and how humans and stones will be the fuel of our state of minds ? a fire whose fuel is men and stones;??
I don't like the meaning 'angels' as the word malikah has a different meaning. Malikah comes from M-L-K, realm/kingdom/authority/control, so i would rather translate malikah as the ones in control/authority. for me there are different types of malikah, and in this verse to me it refers to natural laws of cause and effect.
That the Jahim's fuel is men, refer to that only humans can be in this mindstate, and the stones to me refer to stubborness or rockhard convictions in their hearts, as the hearts of the rejectors are called harder then rocks in 274
- Yet, in spite of this, your hearts only hardened like rocks or even harder, but among rocks are those from which rivers flow; and there are also those which split open and water gushes forth; as well as those that roll down for fear of God. And God is not negligent of all that you do.
And indeed the next verses are interresting
5213 A time(yaumwe) they are being called repeatedly to Hell's fire , repelling/pushing away violently and roughly.
14 This (is) the fire which you were with it lying/denying .
15 So is magic/sorcery that (so is that magic/sorcery)? Or you do not see/look/understand?
16 Roast/suffer it , so be patient or do not be patient, (it is) equal/alike on (to) you, but/truly you are being reimbursed what you were making/doing.Yaumwe in 5213 doesn't mean day specifically, but can mean any time period from each moment 5529 as 50.000 years in 704. If you read the whole chapter, to me it talks about having societies based on the Quran or societies based on human's thinking. In the end a society not based on God's wahi will fall into misery, and will make the people be caught in the Fire/Jahim, as there will be no more progress for them. They never expected this to happen as they thought they can do it themselves as shown in verse 15. That they will have to face the consequences of their thinking and doings which they performed can be seen in verse 16, where they will be confronted with their results(fruits) of their deeds. Like i said, it is your mindstate that will determine your deeds. So if the mindstate is not based on God's truth, the fruits will not give good results in the end and will cause destruction.
Compared to the people who do follow the revelation/wahi of God, which will give them the knowledge of a perfect society and mindstate, and will give them perfect results/fruits. Which can be seen beautifully with the verses 5217 to 28. And will make them progress, and thus make their nafs to a higher in the next life.
Peace
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Thanks Arnoild but I ahve to tell yuo bro, nothing of what you said made any sense to me, I hope it makes sense to the public
There is more verse bro, Jahannam is one big sibject in the Quran so it seems we will spent a few month on this thread
Salam
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Peace bro,
that is what i meant with that our common senses are so different. I cannot take your view, and you cannot take mine, as our background thinking is to different. But i do know that you and me are fighting both as hard as we can to avoid Jahannam. That is why please, next time, discuss first the verses you think contradict, like we did with 37, before you label somebody. We can only accept what we can understand. Like i accepted 37, and you the shahada of the Quran being the only one.
And i don't mind if it becomes a long thread, please do give any verse. But i certainly see my article falls in short, as i have to explain my view on every verse. That is why this discussion can be truly productive if we stay civilized.
peace
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Peace dudes
I think this is due to a puritanical view of God. Many people are very reluctant to see a God who will punish them physically... Even some will not accept the idea that those placed in Paradise will have physical bodies.
Now why is it that in this life some people do get tortured and/or killed with burning, diseases, drowning, earthquakes, wars etc?
I personally look at the Hereafter as a deeper and more intense perpetuation of what happens here, with the only differences that- It is eternal
- The suffering will only affect those who rejected Allah and His revelations.
So whatever is pleasurable here, the counterpart in Heaven will be intense pleasure, but without the pitfalls and perversions (...)
And whatever is painful here will be magnified and multiplied thousand folds in Hell.
One of the most painful if not the most painful experience is burning of the skin, this is why it is the punishment most elaborated on, but there will be other punishments too.
Also Allah when he portrays the Cursed Tree of Zaqoom, says clearly that these descriptions are to frighten people so that they return to Allah's path.
I most certainly take all these narratives literally since I can see any of what is described as a demo version of what is happening on this earth, meaning this is not an unseen issue like that for Jinns.
Believe me I do not shrug off the idea of mental pain either, as I suffered several times from that, with even sensations of burning skin, without fire! Mental pains are real too, but the ones described in the Quran are physical, as the ones we can witness on this planet for the unfortunate who go through such painful experiences.
And as always Allah knows best
Noble
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Peace,
Noble, pain can only be mental, as it are electric currents in your brain which tells your body something is being damaged in your body. What i'm refering to here is that a mental state can cause pain trough wrong deeds which are created by the mental state. So the mental state is equal to pain. For the rest i can understand your approach, but it is not mine as i see a far deeper meaning to those verses.
But you said something interresting
2. The suffering will only affect those who rejected Allah and His revelations.And what do the revelations of Allah tell us? How to create the best society and personal mental state. So because they don't follow God's revelation, they cannot attain the perfect mental state and society, which will create Jahannam in their mind and surroundings. See how the western world is a mess. Fake freedom and fake wealth. Half of the world is being destroyed because so the west can live a surplus life. This is all because people don't accept God's law, and so they will in the end fall into destruction because they follow their own ideas. People will not have peace in their soul as they haven't followed God's command on what is the best mental state and how to create it.
Muhammed and his people created Djenna in their mind as well in the land they occupied, and this is what i refer to. This is the Djenna being on earth. This will be progressed into the next universe. As the people who will keep following their own ideas will keep falling into misery and stagnation for their non-acceptance of God's truth.
God says don't put your hand in the fire to be happy. The stubborn human will put his hand in the fire and by thus hurt themselves by their own deed, God doesn't need to put their hands in the fire afterwards to punish them for putting their hand in the fire, these people will keep putting their hand in the fire themselves by keep neglecting God's warnings and guidance.
Peace
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Peace Arnold
I understand
The mental state of pain is ulitimately caused by physical actions. Physical pain also causes mental pain. And mental pain causes physical pain. There is so much a human mind can endure before experiencing physical pain, this is why Allah says, endure it or not, you will stay there (in Hell).
Now for someone who rejects physical pain (I do not mean you), I will say then eradicate it if you can. It is part of this worldy low life that we experience both physical and mental pain, even a mother giving birth will experience both.
My understanding of the Quran is that rejecting the occurence of Hellfire is akin to rejecting resurrection, and other Signs from God. Therefore this is something I will not do, ie you will not convince me by any argument that this is not so, unless you bring a formula together that will stop physical pain on the planet now. You are entitled to your opinions and undertanding at whatever level you think you are, and I am entitled to mine, which I do not believe are opininons but acceptance of clearly explained signs in the Quran.
May Allah bestow on us more wisdom, and the ability to distinguish truth from falsehood.
Noble -
Peace
Believing they are physical is fine. But people have to admit that it is very, very, reasonable (and I think it to be true) that it doesn't have to necessarily be physical. When one truly thinks about God and how infinite He is, one may think that because God is so infinite in knowledge and power, He gave us metaphorical/allegorical descriptions of Djenna and Jahannam because, we being low humans cannot grasp something such as an eternal afterlife. God even states that the descriptions are allegorical
4715 The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?
1418 The allegory of those who disbelieve in their Lord their works are like ashes in a violent wind, on a stormy day. They gain nothing from whatever they earn; such is the farthest straying.
This, I think is, acknowledging God and the Qur'an even more. We are acknowledging how infinite God is and, we are taking the descriptions as allegorical; that's what they are.
Peace
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peace
people with exoteric beliefs believe in a physical place
people with esoteric beliefs believe in a mental place.
Our beliefs should be esoteric.
exoteric=outer, concerned with material, physical things
esoteric=inner,concerned with immaterial things -
Bro
Your furniture, I am not convinced by these interpretations...
I agree to disagree with you.
The Quran is a very literal book. There allegories are based on real palpable things that a commoner could understand (the Quran was revealed in the language of commoners).
Only there are in some cases what could be seen as ambiguities (in arabic mutashabihat). But I see no ambiguity in the description of Paradise and Hell.
Ahmed has more patience in discussing these further...
All the best
Noble