Djenna & Gehenna; explanation
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Hello Public
Here a few interesting verses
13- The day on which they shall be driven away to the fire of hell with violence.
14- (And it is said unto them) This is the Fire which ye were wont to deny.
15- Is it magic then or do you not see?
16- Enter into it, then bear (it) patiently, or do not bear (it) patiently, it is the same to you; you shall be requited only (for) what you did.(13)
(14)
(15)
(16)-> In verse 13, On the JD the Kafiroon ?the ones who didn?t believe that Jahannam is a physical and real place will be driven to it with violence ?The day on which they shall be driven away to the fire of hell with violence.?, how they will be driven to their state of mind with violence?
-> In verse 14, This is a good one, ?(And it is said unto them) This is the Fire which ye were wont to deny.?, well this message is for ANYONE who said it is not for real, now how they denied the sate of mind?, UNLESS THIS MESSAGE IS FOR ME.
-> In verse 15, Now if it is really a state of mind how this verse makes sense ?Is it magic then or do you not see??, see that Allah used the verse ?SEE? to them, i.e. they will visualise Jahannam with their own EYES.
-> In verse 16, we read that they will enter, now how they will enter a state of mind?? Enter into it?, in fact the Arabic word ?Isluha? is not ?Enter it? rather ?Contact it?, i.e. they will contact the fire for real that is why Allah said to them ? , then bear (it) patiently, or do not bear (it) patiently, it is the same to you; you shall be requited only (for) what you did?
Salam
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Peace,
A person asked me this on a other forum
740
Surely, those who reject our revelations and are too arrogant to uphold them, the gates of the sky will never open for them, nor will they enter Paradise until the camel passes through the needle's eye. We thus requite the guilty.
Well some of what you have written is interesting and the perspective is unique,but there are some parts I would like o discuss and question.Firstly, the above verse indicates the disbelievers never enter paradise.So how did you come to the conclusion that everyone will eventually reach the level of djenna?Also,like u mentioned,prohibition is only till the condition exists,why could it not be that all the disbelievers who are in a hellish state of mind,will be annihiliated,meaning will cease to exist anymore after a God given period of time??There are verses to indicate disbelievers losing their souls etc,and this idea of annihiliation of the subjects from their hellish state of mind,is in line with God being merciful too.
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As for those whose weights are light, they will be the ones who lost their souls, as a consequence of disregarding our revelations, unjustly
And this was my answer
Look at the verse, it says when the people will not accept God's wahi's. So when they will finally do, it will be possible, as then they can form the right mindstate. As long people will not accept God's guidance, they and the whole society will not create Djenna in their mind and surroundings. So it refers that we need God's guidance as humans themselves will never ever have the means by themselves to find out what makes a perfect society.God says people will be in Jahannam as long as He wants, which to me refers to that people will accept the truth. Jahannam is also called maula/protector in 5715 of the rejectors, as refering it to be a between phase, and also called umm/mother in 1019, which refers that Jahannam is a between phase of being born empty and growing to the higher reality. As death is only one phase in the evolution of the mind. So is a Jahannam mindstate only a between-phase between believing in illusion and reality, which is why everyone will see Jahannam, once in their excistence 1971.
As for loosing their nafs, this refers to that they are in stagnation. They will not evolve based on what they did in their lives, they are neither living or dead. So when they are resurrected in the new universe, they will have the same mind state as they had in their first lives, as they are stuck behind Jahim/barriere. Being stuck in the Fire/Jahim, refers that any truth or logic will be burned and will not reach them, and so their nafs will be stuck in that position. But the persons who did worked to develop their nafs, they will be in a garden that will make them evolve. People with their minds in Jahannam cannot evolve as all of their thoughts and deeds are like fire, consuming and destroying any progress.
That Jahannam is a between phase can also be seen at the use of fitnah in 2191, 292&10, where it refers to the trials for the believers. Fitnah comes from the meaning of purifying gold or throwing in rubbish to the fire. Which refers to loosing illusions that will create bad fruits/results, as they are confronted with the truth during those fitnah's. The gold=nafs must be cleaned of all veils/illusions as in 1746, so it can attain the higher mindstate. In 3763 people in Jahannam will also get fitnah, which refers to the tree of zaqum.
As shown by the word Djenna=garden covered in foilage, the ground refers to the nafs which has certain knowledge, which will create certain deeds=trees, and the fruits are it's results. So is the tree of zaqum a deed which is called a fitnah 3763, a purifying deed. Zaqum means literally, a tree with small round leaves without thornes, it has a penetrating smell and is bitter, the tips of the leaves are filthy tasting.
So for them it is purifying, but this purifying will be experienced as eating something filthy. This can be seen now, when rejectors hear revelations, they act as they are taking in something filthy, while it is a purifying thing without them knowing. Thus is my reason to believe Jahannam is only a between phase of illusion and truth, accepting and rejecting wahi in this life as well in the next. It represents mindstates, and this mindstate will influence your surroundings. So it can create a destructive society, from which they will learn that only through God's revelation we can attain the higher level of progress. So the destruction is indeed at the same time a fitnah.
Peace AB
I'll try to answer AB how i approach these verses
O you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.
(6)
Now how the Angels are over the state of our minds ? over it are angels stern and strong,?, and why they have to be ? stern and strong,?, and how humans and stones will be the fuel of our state of minds ? a fire whose fuel is men and stones;??
I don't like the meaning 'angels' as the word malikah has a different meaning. Malikah comes from M-L-K, realm/kingdom/authority/control, so i would rather translate malikah as the ones in control/authority. for me there are different types of malikah, and in this verse to me it refers to natural laws of cause and effect.
That the Jahim's fuel is men, refer to that only humans can be in this mindstate, and the stones to me refer to stubborness or rockhard convictions in their hearts, as the hearts of the rejectors are called harder then rocks in 274
- Yet, in spite of this, your hearts only hardened like rocks or even harder, but among rocks are those from which rivers flow; and there are also those which split open and water gushes forth; as well as those that roll down for fear of God. And God is not negligent of all that you do.
And indeed the next verses are interresting
5213 A time(yaumwe) they are being called repeatedly to Hell's fire , repelling/pushing away violently and roughly.
14 This (is) the fire which you were with it lying/denying .
15 So is magic/sorcery that (so is that magic/sorcery)? Or you do not see/look/understand?
16 Roast/suffer it , so be patient or do not be patient, (it is) equal/alike on (to) you, but/truly you are being reimbursed what you were making/doing.Yaumwe in 5213 doesn't mean day specifically, but can mean any time period from each moment 5529 as 50.000 years in 704. If you read the whole chapter, to me it talks about having societies based on the Quran or societies based on human's thinking. In the end a society not based on God's wahi will fall into misery, and will make the people be caught in the Fire/Jahim, as there will be no more progress for them. They never expected this to happen as they thought they can do it themselves as shown in verse 15. That they will have to face the consequences of their thinking and doings which they performed can be seen in verse 16, where they will be confronted with their results(fruits) of their deeds. Like i said, it is your mindstate that will determine your deeds. So if the mindstate is not based on God's truth, the fruits will not give good results in the end and will cause destruction.
Compared to the people who do follow the revelation/wahi of God, which will give them the knowledge of a perfect society and mindstate, and will give them perfect results/fruits. Which can be seen beautifully with the verses 5217 to 28. And will make them progress, and thus make their nafs to a higher in the next life.
Peace
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Thanks Arnoild but I ahve to tell yuo bro, nothing of what you said made any sense to me, I hope it makes sense to the public
There is more verse bro, Jahannam is one big sibject in the Quran so it seems we will spent a few month on this thread
Salam
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Peace bro,
that is what i meant with that our common senses are so different. I cannot take your view, and you cannot take mine, as our background thinking is to different. But i do know that you and me are fighting both as hard as we can to avoid Jahannam. That is why please, next time, discuss first the verses you think contradict, like we did with 37, before you label somebody. We can only accept what we can understand. Like i accepted 37, and you the shahada of the Quran being the only one.
And i don't mind if it becomes a long thread, please do give any verse. But i certainly see my article falls in short, as i have to explain my view on every verse. That is why this discussion can be truly productive if we stay civilized.
peace
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Peace dudes
I think this is due to a puritanical view of God. Many people are very reluctant to see a God who will punish them physically... Even some will not accept the idea that those placed in Paradise will have physical bodies.
Now why is it that in this life some people do get tortured and/or killed with burning, diseases, drowning, earthquakes, wars etc?
I personally look at the Hereafter as a deeper and more intense perpetuation of what happens here, with the only differences that- It is eternal
- The suffering will only affect those who rejected Allah and His revelations.
So whatever is pleasurable here, the counterpart in Heaven will be intense pleasure, but without the pitfalls and perversions (...)
And whatever is painful here will be magnified and multiplied thousand folds in Hell.
One of the most painful if not the most painful experience is burning of the skin, this is why it is the punishment most elaborated on, but there will be other punishments too.
Also Allah when he portrays the Cursed Tree of Zaqoom, says clearly that these descriptions are to frighten people so that they return to Allah's path.
I most certainly take all these narratives literally since I can see any of what is described as a demo version of what is happening on this earth, meaning this is not an unseen issue like that for Jinns.
Believe me I do not shrug off the idea of mental pain either, as I suffered several times from that, with even sensations of burning skin, without fire! Mental pains are real too, but the ones described in the Quran are physical, as the ones we can witness on this planet for the unfortunate who go through such painful experiences.
And as always Allah knows best
Noble
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Peace,
Noble, pain can only be mental, as it are electric currents in your brain which tells your body something is being damaged in your body. What i'm refering to here is that a mental state can cause pain trough wrong deeds which are created by the mental state. So the mental state is equal to pain. For the rest i can understand your approach, but it is not mine as i see a far deeper meaning to those verses.
But you said something interresting
2. The suffering will only affect those who rejected Allah and His revelations.And what do the revelations of Allah tell us? How to create the best society and personal mental state. So because they don't follow God's revelation, they cannot attain the perfect mental state and society, which will create Jahannam in their mind and surroundings. See how the western world is a mess. Fake freedom and fake wealth. Half of the world is being destroyed because so the west can live a surplus life. This is all because people don't accept God's law, and so they will in the end fall into destruction because they follow their own ideas. People will not have peace in their soul as they haven't followed God's command on what is the best mental state and how to create it.
Muhammed and his people created Djenna in their mind as well in the land they occupied, and this is what i refer to. This is the Djenna being on earth. This will be progressed into the next universe. As the people who will keep following their own ideas will keep falling into misery and stagnation for their non-acceptance of God's truth.
God says don't put your hand in the fire to be happy. The stubborn human will put his hand in the fire and by thus hurt themselves by their own deed, God doesn't need to put their hands in the fire afterwards to punish them for putting their hand in the fire, these people will keep putting their hand in the fire themselves by keep neglecting God's warnings and guidance.
Peace
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Peace Arnold
I understand
The mental state of pain is ulitimately caused by physical actions. Physical pain also causes mental pain. And mental pain causes physical pain. There is so much a human mind can endure before experiencing physical pain, this is why Allah says, endure it or not, you will stay there (in Hell).
Now for someone who rejects physical pain (I do not mean you), I will say then eradicate it if you can. It is part of this worldy low life that we experience both physical and mental pain, even a mother giving birth will experience both.
My understanding of the Quran is that rejecting the occurence of Hellfire is akin to rejecting resurrection, and other Signs from God. Therefore this is something I will not do, ie you will not convince me by any argument that this is not so, unless you bring a formula together that will stop physical pain on the planet now. You are entitled to your opinions and undertanding at whatever level you think you are, and I am entitled to mine, which I do not believe are opininons but acceptance of clearly explained signs in the Quran.
May Allah bestow on us more wisdom, and the ability to distinguish truth from falsehood.
Noble -
Peace
Believing they are physical is fine. But people have to admit that it is very, very, reasonable (and I think it to be true) that it doesn't have to necessarily be physical. When one truly thinks about God and how infinite He is, one may think that because God is so infinite in knowledge and power, He gave us metaphorical/allegorical descriptions of Djenna and Jahannam because, we being low humans cannot grasp something such as an eternal afterlife. God even states that the descriptions are allegorical
4715 The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?
1418 The allegory of those who disbelieve in their Lord their works are like ashes in a violent wind, on a stormy day. They gain nothing from whatever they earn; such is the farthest straying.
This, I think is, acknowledging God and the Qur'an even more. We are acknowledging how infinite God is and, we are taking the descriptions as allegorical; that's what they are.
Peace
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peace
people with exoteric beliefs believe in a physical place
people with esoteric beliefs believe in a mental place.
Our beliefs should be esoteric.
exoteric=outer, concerned with material, physical things
esoteric=inner,concerned with immaterial things -
Bro
Your furniture, I am not convinced by these interpretations...
I agree to disagree with you.
The Quran is a very literal book. There allegories are based on real palpable things that a commoner could understand (the Quran was revealed in the language of commoners).
Only there are in some cases what could be seen as ambiguities (in arabic mutashabihat). But I see no ambiguity in the description of Paradise and Hell.
Ahmed has more patience in discussing these further...
All the best
Noble -
Peace all. Thus spoke zarathusthra...A book by the great niesctze.....Zarathustra=an alleged prophet.....
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allegorical doesn't necessarily mean ambiguous. It just means the quran is using physical objects to describe mental states.
I don't get it noble. "thus spake zarathustra?" I'll have to look it up, I guess...
Allegorical for me means using easy to understand concepts to explain complicated concepts, it does not have to be physical or mental or either.
And the above is an ambiguity as it seems to contradict what I already said... -
Peace be upon yuo ArnoldYasin,
Good article, of course I agree with that. I dont have much to add because you have stated the case clearly enough.
Noble, I suggest you take a look at the studies done with hypnosis where people have deactivated the pain response. I also ask you, have you ever had a headache and took aspirin or another medicine that "SOMEHOW" got rid of that "pain". How was it that you were able to get rid of that pain? Further, there are women who have practiced meditation and were able to have pain free childbirth, and lastly there is the Buddist Monk that sat in Lotus position meditating while he set himself on fire and did not move, as a protest to the vietnam war.
So dont assume that we cant remove pain, but the pain mechanism is there to help us protect ourselves so we dont really want to remove that, but this does not mean we cant remove it.
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Peace idolfree1
I know a lot about hypnosis, meditation, nlp and what have you as I practice them on a regular basis (from Paul McKenna to Richard Bandler, and Milton Erickson in the past, but also I happen to suffer from a mental disorder where I do sometimes get thought distortions and delusions, with some of the drugs I am taking giving me a better threshold for dealing with pain).
But
Eliminate death then if you are truthful
Astalavista baby
Noble out -
Peace
Believing they are physical is fine. But people have to admit that it is very, very, reasonable (and I think it to be true) that it doesn't have to necessarily be physical. When one truly thinks about God and how infinite He is, one may think that because God is so infinite in knowledge and power, He gave us metaphorical/allegorical descriptions of Djenna and Jahannam because, we being low humans cannot grasp something such as an eternal afterlife. God even states that the descriptions are allegorical
4715 The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?
1418 The allegory of those who disbelieve in their Lord their works are like ashes in a violent wind, on a stormy day. They gain nothing from whatever they earn; such is the farthest straying.
This, I think is, acknowledging God and the Qur'an even more. We are acknowledging how infinite God is and, we are taking the descriptions as allegorical; that's what they are.
Peace
Even you OM, you manipulate the Araboc word "Mathal"
I thought you speak good Arabic
well we spent a year discussing hell remember,
What Arnols is saying along with you CONFIRM TO ME THAT THE HELL IS A PHYSICAL PLACE, I KNOW AS ALLA SAID THAT THE MANY HUMANS WON"T GRASP HELL, AND THOIS IS PART OF THE TEST
EXCALY LIKE THOSE WHO CAN'T GRASP PRPHET STORIES AND THE MADE THE NON EXISRANT AND YET THEY CLAIM TO HAVE BELIEVED, 28 will conme realy handy in her
If we have a Garden that its width is equal to the heaven and earth how come it can't be a place while Allah told us its size?
Salam