Djenna & Gehenna; explanation
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Thanks Arnoild but I ahve to tell yuo bro, nothing of what you said made any sense to me, I hope it makes sense to the public
There is more verse bro, Jahannam is one big sibject in the Quran so it seems we will spent a few month on this thread
Salam
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Peace bro,
that is what i meant with that our common senses are so different. I cannot take your view, and you cannot take mine, as our background thinking is to different. But i do know that you and me are fighting both as hard as we can to avoid Jahannam. That is why please, next time, discuss first the verses you think contradict, like we did with 37, before you label somebody. We can only accept what we can understand. Like i accepted 37, and you the shahada of the Quran being the only one.
And i don't mind if it becomes a long thread, please do give any verse. But i certainly see my article falls in short, as i have to explain my view on every verse. That is why this discussion can be truly productive if we stay civilized.
peace
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Peace dudes
I think this is due to a puritanical view of God. Many people are very reluctant to see a God who will punish them physically... Even some will not accept the idea that those placed in Paradise will have physical bodies.
Now why is it that in this life some people do get tortured and/or killed with burning, diseases, drowning, earthquakes, wars etc?
I personally look at the Hereafter as a deeper and more intense perpetuation of what happens here, with the only differences that- It is eternal
- The suffering will only affect those who rejected Allah and His revelations.
So whatever is pleasurable here, the counterpart in Heaven will be intense pleasure, but without the pitfalls and perversions (...)
And whatever is painful here will be magnified and multiplied thousand folds in Hell.
One of the most painful if not the most painful experience is burning of the skin, this is why it is the punishment most elaborated on, but there will be other punishments too.
Also Allah when he portrays the Cursed Tree of Zaqoom, says clearly that these descriptions are to frighten people so that they return to Allah's path.
I most certainly take all these narratives literally since I can see any of what is described as a demo version of what is happening on this earth, meaning this is not an unseen issue like that for Jinns.
Believe me I do not shrug off the idea of mental pain either, as I suffered several times from that, with even sensations of burning skin, without fire! Mental pains are real too, but the ones described in the Quran are physical, as the ones we can witness on this planet for the unfortunate who go through such painful experiences.
And as always Allah knows best
Noble
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Peace,
Noble, pain can only be mental, as it are electric currents in your brain which tells your body something is being damaged in your body. What i'm refering to here is that a mental state can cause pain trough wrong deeds which are created by the mental state. So the mental state is equal to pain. For the rest i can understand your approach, but it is not mine as i see a far deeper meaning to those verses.
But you said something interresting
2. The suffering will only affect those who rejected Allah and His revelations.And what do the revelations of Allah tell us? How to create the best society and personal mental state. So because they don't follow God's revelation, they cannot attain the perfect mental state and society, which will create Jahannam in their mind and surroundings. See how the western world is a mess. Fake freedom and fake wealth. Half of the world is being destroyed because so the west can live a surplus life. This is all because people don't accept God's law, and so they will in the end fall into destruction because they follow their own ideas. People will not have peace in their soul as they haven't followed God's command on what is the best mental state and how to create it.
Muhammed and his people created Djenna in their mind as well in the land they occupied, and this is what i refer to. This is the Djenna being on earth. This will be progressed into the next universe. As the people who will keep following their own ideas will keep falling into misery and stagnation for their non-acceptance of God's truth.
God says don't put your hand in the fire to be happy. The stubborn human will put his hand in the fire and by thus hurt themselves by their own deed, God doesn't need to put their hands in the fire afterwards to punish them for putting their hand in the fire, these people will keep putting their hand in the fire themselves by keep neglecting God's warnings and guidance.
Peace
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Peace Arnold
I understand
The mental state of pain is ulitimately caused by physical actions. Physical pain also causes mental pain. And mental pain causes physical pain. There is so much a human mind can endure before experiencing physical pain, this is why Allah says, endure it or not, you will stay there (in Hell).
Now for someone who rejects physical pain (I do not mean you), I will say then eradicate it if you can. It is part of this worldy low life that we experience both physical and mental pain, even a mother giving birth will experience both.
My understanding of the Quran is that rejecting the occurence of Hellfire is akin to rejecting resurrection, and other Signs from God. Therefore this is something I will not do, ie you will not convince me by any argument that this is not so, unless you bring a formula together that will stop physical pain on the planet now. You are entitled to your opinions and undertanding at whatever level you think you are, and I am entitled to mine, which I do not believe are opininons but acceptance of clearly explained signs in the Quran.
May Allah bestow on us more wisdom, and the ability to distinguish truth from falsehood.
Noble -
Peace
Believing they are physical is fine. But people have to admit that it is very, very, reasonable (and I think it to be true) that it doesn't have to necessarily be physical. When one truly thinks about God and how infinite He is, one may think that because God is so infinite in knowledge and power, He gave us metaphorical/allegorical descriptions of Djenna and Jahannam because, we being low humans cannot grasp something such as an eternal afterlife. God even states that the descriptions are allegorical
4715 The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?
1418 The allegory of those who disbelieve in their Lord their works are like ashes in a violent wind, on a stormy day. They gain nothing from whatever they earn; such is the farthest straying.
This, I think is, acknowledging God and the Qur'an even more. We are acknowledging how infinite God is and, we are taking the descriptions as allegorical; that's what they are.
Peace
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peace
people with exoteric beliefs believe in a physical place
people with esoteric beliefs believe in a mental place.
Our beliefs should be esoteric.
exoteric=outer, concerned with material, physical things
esoteric=inner,concerned with immaterial things -
Bro
Your furniture, I am not convinced by these interpretations...
I agree to disagree with you.
The Quran is a very literal book. There allegories are based on real palpable things that a commoner could understand (the Quran was revealed in the language of commoners).
Only there are in some cases what could be seen as ambiguities (in arabic mutashabihat). But I see no ambiguity in the description of Paradise and Hell.
Ahmed has more patience in discussing these further...
All the best
Noble -
Peace all. Thus spoke zarathusthra...A book by the great niesctze.....Zarathustra=an alleged prophet.....
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allegorical doesn't necessarily mean ambiguous. It just means the quran is using physical objects to describe mental states.
I don't get it noble. "thus spake zarathustra?" I'll have to look it up, I guess...
Allegorical for me means using easy to understand concepts to explain complicated concepts, it does not have to be physical or mental or either.
And the above is an ambiguity as it seems to contradict what I already said... -
Peace be upon yuo ArnoldYasin,
Good article, of course I agree with that. I dont have much to add because you have stated the case clearly enough.
Noble, I suggest you take a look at the studies done with hypnosis where people have deactivated the pain response. I also ask you, have you ever had a headache and took aspirin or another medicine that "SOMEHOW" got rid of that "pain". How was it that you were able to get rid of that pain? Further, there are women who have practiced meditation and were able to have pain free childbirth, and lastly there is the Buddist Monk that sat in Lotus position meditating while he set himself on fire and did not move, as a protest to the vietnam war.
So dont assume that we cant remove pain, but the pain mechanism is there to help us protect ourselves so we dont really want to remove that, but this does not mean we cant remove it.
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Peace idolfree1
I know a lot about hypnosis, meditation, nlp and what have you as I practice them on a regular basis (from Paul McKenna to Richard Bandler, and Milton Erickson in the past, but also I happen to suffer from a mental disorder where I do sometimes get thought distortions and delusions, with some of the drugs I am taking giving me a better threshold for dealing with pain).
But
Eliminate death then if you are truthful
Astalavista baby
Noble out -
Peace
Believing they are physical is fine. But people have to admit that it is very, very, reasonable (and I think it to be true) that it doesn't have to necessarily be physical. When one truly thinks about God and how infinite He is, one may think that because God is so infinite in knowledge and power, He gave us metaphorical/allegorical descriptions of Djenna and Jahannam because, we being low humans cannot grasp something such as an eternal afterlife. God even states that the descriptions are allegorical
4715 The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?
1418 The allegory of those who disbelieve in their Lord their works are like ashes in a violent wind, on a stormy day. They gain nothing from whatever they earn; such is the farthest straying.
This, I think is, acknowledging God and the Qur'an even more. We are acknowledging how infinite God is and, we are taking the descriptions as allegorical; that's what they are.
Peace
Even you OM, you manipulate the Araboc word "Mathal"
I thought you speak good Arabic
well we spent a year discussing hell remember,
What Arnols is saying along with you CONFIRM TO ME THAT THE HELL IS A PHYSICAL PLACE, I KNOW AS ALLA SAID THAT THE MANY HUMANS WON"T GRASP HELL, AND THOIS IS PART OF THE TEST
EXCALY LIKE THOSE WHO CAN'T GRASP PRPHET STORIES AND THE MADE THE NON EXISRANT AND YET THEY CLAIM TO HAVE BELIEVED, 28 will conme realy handy in her
If we have a Garden that its width is equal to the heaven and earth how come it can't be a place while Allah told us its size?
Salam
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Salam.
Heaven and Hell, as i see it, are in completely different sphere. I think we should not be arguing what it is or where it is, but let's be grateful to Allah Most Merciful that Heaven and Hell will receive only members who deserve to be there.
For example a person who doesn't believe in Allah Most High, will go to Hell.
What does that mean? That he will live here for a while, get whatever he wants, then die, be buried, resurrected and brought before Allah Most Powerful Who will judge him. This disbeliever will then go to Hell.
So, based on this example, Hell is a place.#1 Disbeliever's body will not endure the pain as they will be beating him there with metal bats.
#2 Disbeliever's mentality will not endure the pain as they pour the boiling water on his head.
I will say this ONLY Allah Most Powerful, Most Merciful, Most High, knows best and He has described the Heaven and Hell for us. We can't even tlak about Heaven or Hell because we haven't been there, yet, and therefore can't say that Heaven and Hell are this or that, place or staes of mind, ..... i mean, i once heard this sentence and it stuck with me, because it makes sense and is smart
How Do You Explain The Taste Of The Chocolate To Someone Who Has Never Tasted Chocolate???
Let's go to the jungle for the weekend and bring some cookies to the people who don't know what the internet is or can't understand how MSN works. Now, you can't start telling these people what cookies are, how gooooooood they are and delicious, when these people never tasted cookies.
So, what do we need to do? First, give them 1 cookie. After they eat it, then you can tell them that, if they are good people, if they follow the Qur'an, they will live in a world where they will be given infinte amount of cookies for ever.And that really is all you can tell them. You can't tell them how this eternal world works or where it is and you can't show them this world, because if you bring them into this world of eternal cookies, they won't leave. So, let's not tease them, just make a deal with them
#1 follow the Qur'an and you'll get the eternal world (HEAVEN) and all the cookies you won't.
#2 if you don't follow the Qur'an, you'll get be inside the world (HELL) where there won't be any warm cookies.I didn't come here to prophesize, i came here, to tell you what i have noticed. Where we go from here, is a choice i leave to you.
May Allah Most High, Most Wise gives us all more knowledge and patience and rewards us with HEAVEN.Salam.
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Peace
I don't understand what you're saying.
Also, I'm not saying it can't be a place. That is one interpretation. We all have interpretations. What I'm saying is it being a place is not the only possibility.
Peace OM
Bro you adding apossiblity that Allah never ever suggested as well what He said totally demolish that possibility so insisting on it is SHIRK
Peace