Djenna & Gehenna; explanation
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Peace all. Thus spoke zarathusthra...A book by the great niesctze.....Zarathustra=an alleged prophet.....
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allegorical doesn't necessarily mean ambiguous. It just means the quran is using physical objects to describe mental states.
I don't get it noble. "thus spake zarathustra?" I'll have to look it up, I guess...
Allegorical for me means using easy to understand concepts to explain complicated concepts, it does not have to be physical or mental or either.
And the above is an ambiguity as it seems to contradict what I already said... -
Peace be upon yuo ArnoldYasin,
Good article, of course I agree with that. I dont have much to add because you have stated the case clearly enough.
Noble, I suggest you take a look at the studies done with hypnosis where people have deactivated the pain response. I also ask you, have you ever had a headache and took aspirin or another medicine that "SOMEHOW" got rid of that "pain". How was it that you were able to get rid of that pain? Further, there are women who have practiced meditation and were able to have pain free childbirth, and lastly there is the Buddist Monk that sat in Lotus position meditating while he set himself on fire and did not move, as a protest to the vietnam war.
So dont assume that we cant remove pain, but the pain mechanism is there to help us protect ourselves so we dont really want to remove that, but this does not mean we cant remove it.
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Peace idolfree1
I know a lot about hypnosis, meditation, nlp and what have you as I practice them on a regular basis (from Paul McKenna to Richard Bandler, and Milton Erickson in the past, but also I happen to suffer from a mental disorder where I do sometimes get thought distortions and delusions, with some of the drugs I am taking giving me a better threshold for dealing with pain).
But
Eliminate death then if you are truthful
Astalavista baby
Noble out -
Peace
Believing they are physical is fine. But people have to admit that it is very, very, reasonable (and I think it to be true) that it doesn't have to necessarily be physical. When one truly thinks about God and how infinite He is, one may think that because God is so infinite in knowledge and power, He gave us metaphorical/allegorical descriptions of Djenna and Jahannam because, we being low humans cannot grasp something such as an eternal afterlife. God even states that the descriptions are allegorical
4715 The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?
1418 The allegory of those who disbelieve in their Lord their works are like ashes in a violent wind, on a stormy day. They gain nothing from whatever they earn; such is the farthest straying.
This, I think is, acknowledging God and the Qur'an even more. We are acknowledging how infinite God is and, we are taking the descriptions as allegorical; that's what they are.
Peace
Even you OM, you manipulate the Araboc word "Mathal"
I thought you speak good Arabic
well we spent a year discussing hell remember,
What Arnols is saying along with you CONFIRM TO ME THAT THE HELL IS A PHYSICAL PLACE, I KNOW AS ALLA SAID THAT THE MANY HUMANS WON"T GRASP HELL, AND THOIS IS PART OF THE TEST
EXCALY LIKE THOSE WHO CAN'T GRASP PRPHET STORIES AND THE MADE THE NON EXISRANT AND YET THEY CLAIM TO HAVE BELIEVED, 28 will conme realy handy in her
If we have a Garden that its width is equal to the heaven and earth how come it can't be a place while Allah told us its size?
Salam
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Salam.
Heaven and Hell, as i see it, are in completely different sphere. I think we should not be arguing what it is or where it is, but let's be grateful to Allah Most Merciful that Heaven and Hell will receive only members who deserve to be there.
For example a person who doesn't believe in Allah Most High, will go to Hell.
What does that mean? That he will live here for a while, get whatever he wants, then die, be buried, resurrected and brought before Allah Most Powerful Who will judge him. This disbeliever will then go to Hell.
So, based on this example, Hell is a place.#1 Disbeliever's body will not endure the pain as they will be beating him there with metal bats.
#2 Disbeliever's mentality will not endure the pain as they pour the boiling water on his head.
I will say this ONLY Allah Most Powerful, Most Merciful, Most High, knows best and He has described the Heaven and Hell for us. We can't even tlak about Heaven or Hell because we haven't been there, yet, and therefore can't say that Heaven and Hell are this or that, place or staes of mind, ..... i mean, i once heard this sentence and it stuck with me, because it makes sense and is smart
How Do You Explain The Taste Of The Chocolate To Someone Who Has Never Tasted Chocolate???
Let's go to the jungle for the weekend and bring some cookies to the people who don't know what the internet is or can't understand how MSN works. Now, you can't start telling these people what cookies are, how gooooooood they are and delicious, when these people never tasted cookies.
So, what do we need to do? First, give them 1 cookie. After they eat it, then you can tell them that, if they are good people, if they follow the Qur'an, they will live in a world where they will be given infinte amount of cookies for ever.And that really is all you can tell them. You can't tell them how this eternal world works or where it is and you can't show them this world, because if you bring them into this world of eternal cookies, they won't leave. So, let's not tease them, just make a deal with them
#1 follow the Qur'an and you'll get the eternal world (HEAVEN) and all the cookies you won't.
#2 if you don't follow the Qur'an, you'll get be inside the world (HELL) where there won't be any warm cookies.I didn't come here to prophesize, i came here, to tell you what i have noticed. Where we go from here, is a choice i leave to you.
May Allah Most High, Most Wise gives us all more knowledge and patience and rewards us with HEAVEN.Salam.
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Peace
I don't understand what you're saying.
Also, I'm not saying it can't be a place. That is one interpretation. We all have interpretations. What I'm saying is it being a place is not the only possibility.
Peace OM
Bro you adding apossiblity that Allah never ever suggested as well what He said totally demolish that possibility so insisting on it is SHIRK
Peace
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Peace all,
Well the problem is that we again do not distinguish between THE MECHANISM and THE PURPOSE!
1- WHY SOMETHING HAPPENS? TO WHAT END?--> WHY THE HEART OF THE PATIENT IS OPERATED? (tabyeen)
2- HOW SOMETHING HAPPENS? HOW SOMETHING UNFOLDS-->HOW THE HEART OF THE PATIENT IS OPERATED?(tashreeh)peace,
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Peace
I don't understand what you're saying.
Also, I'm not saying it can't be a place. That is one interpretation. We all have interpretations. What I'm saying is it being a place is not the only possibility.
Peace OM
Bro you adding apossiblity that Allah never ever suggested as well what He said totally demolish that possibility so insisting on it is SHIRK
Peace
Peace ab
If heaven is really a place with flowing streams and the best mates, why would God call these descriptions allegorical? Explain to me your thoughts on mathal.
Peace
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Peace,
To clarify, Djenna and Jahannam first begin in the mind. Your mindstate determines your responses to your surroundings. So if you have a Jahannam mindstate, you create Jahannam around you. You will not find peace in this mindstate, you are neither alive or dead. You will do deeds that will destroy yourself, as only trough following God's revelation, people will find the perfect knowledge to progress themselves to the fullest, as indivuduals as well as a society.
As Djenna is the ground of your conciousness and will create a peacefull mind and by thus a peacefull and reality based deeds. As can be seen in these verses
- (It will be said to the pious) "O (you) the one in (complete) rest and satisfaction!
- "Come back to your Lord, Well-pleased (yourself) and well-pleasing unto Him!
- "Enter you, then, among My honoured slaves,
- "And enter you My Paradise!"
Also a country which is not ruled by God's Law is also called Jahannam as it will eventualy destroy itself as only through God's revelation humans will find the best Laws and wisdom to create the perfect society. A country that is ruled by God's revelations is also Djenna, as God's Law will give a perfect society and the best peacefull mind for individuals. As can be seen from the verses 527-16 which talk about a Jahannam society, and 5217-28 which talk about a Djenna society.
So it is a mindstate as well as a physical place. Just like masjid al-haram literally means a place where people bow to God's restrictions. This has to be as your mind/conciousness as well the country you live in. So by this example it is again seen how something is as well talking about a mental place as a physical place.
And Alen, i understand you, but God describes that Heaven is as well here AS in the next life. You cannot say Heaven or Hell are only in the next life. And heaven and hell cannot be described as everyone will experience happiness and sadness in a different way. I can write down how the cookie will tast for me, but you can experience that cookie in a total different matter. And that it cannot be described, is partialy also because following God's laws will create progress unimaginable. Look at modern technology now, isn't that unimaginable for people 100 years ago?
Imagine the freedom, joy and progress of a society based on God's laws, it will create things unimaginable.
3217 So no self knows what I hide for them from an eyes'/sights' delight/satisfaction , a reward/reimbursement because (of) what they were making/doing .
And the Djenna in the next life will be truly unimaginable, as our technology now is unimaginable for people 100 years ago. In the next life we will be so far off, i will not discuss that.
The main purpose is to show is it is US that will create Djenna or Jahannam. It are OUR mindstate and the results of those mindstates that will create Djenna or Jahannam now and in the next life. Waiting for Djenna in the next life has created Jahannam now on earth!!! There is no real progress and we are working our way towards WW3. That it so important people have to understand the real purpose of God's revelation and what He uses as examples of results of following those laws. You don't earn Djenna by waiting and praying. You have to create Djenna by working hard to imply God's Laws here on earth, using prayer and fasting for a peacefull mindstate, and taking action to create a peacefull land. You see, Djenna as well mental as physical....
Do people think Muhammed created such a perfect state just by praying and waiting? No, they knew it was them, themselves who created Djenna. So stop waiting and hoping for something you have to create yourselves. That is what the whole Quran is about, action! Don't look at the tree waiting till the apple falls, you are hungry now, so pluck it by using your God given powers and using the wisdom God gave us in His revelation.
Peace
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Hello Arnold, OM, CavemanDoctor and All
Let?s look at the following verses and we will see with the naked eye (metaphor) that Jahannam has to be a physical place, being a state of mind won?t fit in these verses
99- And on that day We will leave a part of them in conflict with another part, and the trumpet will be blown, so We will gather them all together;
100- And We will bring forth hell, exposed to view, on that day before the unbelievers.
(99)
(100)-> 1899 is telling us about the moment or resurrection ? and the trumpet will be blown, so We will gather them all together?, then in 18100 Allah is telling us what will happen next ? And We will bring forth hell, exposed to view?, see the Arabic words ? ? and ? ?,, ?Aradana Arda? this is actually means, ?IT IS SHOWTIME?, I?m not kiddin here mates, it means 100% ?IT IS SHOWTIME?, so how our state of minds will be on show for all to see?
Now the showtime has started, we will see that Jahannam has 7 gates
43- And surely Hell is the promised place of them all
44- It hath seven gates, and each gate hath an appointed portion.
(43)
(44)-> See how in 1543 we read ? surely Hell is the promised place?, the word used is ??, ?Mawiduhun?, which we use for specify a meeting place in Arabic or to specify a time, in here it has to be a place because in 1443 we read ? It hath seven gates, and each gate hath an appointed portion?, i.e. a description to that place, now how our state of minds will have 7 gates?
Now we know it has 7 gates, ;et?s see what will happen next
71- And those who disbelieve shall be driven to hell in companies; until, when they come to it, its doors shall be opened, and the keepers of it shall say to them Did not there come to you messengers from among you reciting to you the communications of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours? They shall say Yea! But the sentence of punishment was due against the unbelievers.
72- (To them) will be said Enter ye the gates of Hell, to dwell therein and evil is (this) Abode of the Arrogant!
(71)
(72)-> Now how the disbelievers will be driven to the state of minds in comoanions? ?And those who disbelieve shall be driven to hell in companies;? then how the gates or the state of minds will open?, ?until, when they come to it, its doors shall be opened?, and how the keepers of the sate of minds tell us the following? ?and the keepers of it shall say to them Did not there come to you messengers from among you reciting to you the communications of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours??, well does the state of minds has keepers?, what is ironic that the disbelievers will respond back to the keepers of the sate of mind ?They shall say Yea! But the sentence of punishment was due against the unbelievers.?, well well well, it seems according to this flawed understanding the disbelievers will convict themselves and admit that they have to enter that state of mind ? the sentence of punishment was due against the unbelievers.?, I wonder why they always try to escape from the sate of mind and they come out of it then they are forced back into it? didn?t they agree in here that they deserve to enter the state of mind?
-> In 3972, we read Allah ordering them to enter the state of mind through the gates of then state of mind after talking to the keepers of the state of mind ?(To them) will be said Enter ye the gates of Hell, to dwell therein and evil is (this) Abode of the Arrogant!?, see it says ? dwell therein?, now if they suppose to dwell therein forever, how they can come out monetarily to escape the state of mind?
As to those who are rebellious and wicked, their abode will be the Fire every time they wish to get away therefrom, they will be forced thereinto, and it will be said to them Taste ye the Penalty of the Fire, the which ye were wont to reject as false.
(20)
-> See, ? time they wish to get away therefrom, they will be forced thereinto?, now who is talking here?, ? and it will be said to them Taste ye the Penalty of the Fire, the which ye were wont to reject as false?, is it the state of mind talking to them here?, but why they try to escape if they convicted themselves with the highest level of remorse in 3971 ? They shall say Yea! But the sentence of punishment was due against the unbelievers.?
There is more to come, I just have to take the daughter to school then head to work as well the movie is underway
Salam all
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Peace,
AB i have to go to bed now. Can you wait with posting new verses till i have answered these ones tommorow? I would appreciate it, then the thread will not become so cluttered and confusing.
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Sure mate
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Arnold, and all, please stick to the subject "Jahannam"
Thanks
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Peace ab
If heaven is really a place with flowing streams and the best mates, why would God call these descriptions allegorical? Explain to me your thoughts on mathal.
Peace
Peace OM
Firstly Allah didn?t call the description ?allegorical?, He was giving us EXAMPLES of what heaven will look like, in fact the word Mithl or Mathal, means ?Like?, ?for example?
I can I say I?m Tall Mithl Amood El Noor, while this is clearly a metaphor, the facts remains intact
- I exist
- I?m very tall
In fact the word mathal is very common in Arabic, it hardly means talking about something that does not exist, at least one of the things it compares MUST EXIST id not both, it is only the relation between the two objects that we are trying to use metaphorically to make it easier to comprehend
I can say I was flying with car Mithl Al Tiaraa, clearly 2 metaphors in here
- I was flying
- My car like a plane
While this sound insane the facts remains
- I was driving my car
- I was driving very fast
Now we also use the word to give an example to something using a real fact, for example I can say my car color is the mithl the color of your shirt,
The whole statement is 100% a fact because your shirt color happens to be the same color as my car and the word used is Mithl, the sommon and street labgugae for Mithl is ?Zai?
Another wide use of the word Mathal is found at schools and unis exams, they ask the students in the exams almost in every question
To give Amthilah to something, Amthilah here is the plural of mathal, and the statmenet means ?To give EXAMPLES for something?, now all the examples given must be facts based on some scientific theories or logical foundations, I.E 100% facts
In the case with heaven the word was used to give us an example of the real heaven will look like because we can?t see it yet, and Allah is using examples to make it comprehendible to us so we realize what is in stake and work hard to prosper, the example given about paradise in no way means that paradise is a metaphor, exactly as I say I?m tall Mithl Amood Elnoor, in fact both me and Amood El Noor exist
Cheers
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Peace
Ahmed, good explanations. Since you wish to focus on Jahannam, there is an obvious possible explanation why there is a place called Jahannam near Jerusalem, and that is maybe it was revealed to previous prophets that the name of hell is Jahannam in the hereafter, and so they called a place by that name, however Quran refers to the true meaning ie Hell is Jahannam in hereafter.
Taking a more inquisitive approach to the subject of language it is very mysterious how it originated and developed, and it is well known that cultures do borrow from one another specific words, and also most obviously from Allah's revelations too, a good example is referring to planets as Kawkab which was unheard of in those times...
Even though I use the Quran a lot, I find it hard to refer to specific verses, but I think in Surat Al-Room, Allah (SWT) refers to the differences in languages between human communities as being one of His potent signs.
And Allah knows best.
Salam
Noble
PS My own hypothesis (to be proven of course) is that Languages initially emerged via Divine Interventions through Prophets and Messengers, the first of which being Adam, witness when Allah says He taught Him All the Names. Another explanation is that Allah hardwired into humans the capability to express themselved verbally, together with that of coding that capability into writing, as witnessed by Surat AlAlaq and AlQalam, in other words everything comes fully from Allah anyway...
So how about this controversial statement This Life we live is the Allegory, and the Hereafter is the Real Life (you will find this expressed in the Quran as an Ayat). -
Peace be upon you Noble,
Eliminate death then if you are truthful
What does that have to do with eliminating the pain response? I just finished giving the example of the Monk who lit himself on fire and DIED without flinching, but then you challenge me to avoid death? I dont understand.
In any case, I assume you agree with the point I was making about pain since you are familiar with meditation.