"those who believe and do good works" - 2:62 and 3:21

nadeem

Hi again!

Brother Enquirer,

I agree with your comments, on both the mind and the kafir. I'll try to keep them in mind during my research -)
Thanks -)

Nadeem

unknownuser

Second, A question to brother Ahmed,

You said that on the basis of 4124, that only those who do good while believing will be rewarded. Right?

Sure but not just 4124, I based it on a whole heap of verses where the words ?Wa Hoa Mumin? ?While He/She is a believer? was a condition to be rewarded for the good deeds,

What are your thoughts on this verse

2112
Nay, but whosoever surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

(112)

Here, the condition is reversed.

I agree with that and sure 2112 confirmed that you must be a believer for the good deeds to be accepted

If I follow your line of thought, then verse 2112 says indirectly that there are those who have surrendered to god while doing evil.

exactly

For me, if one is doing evil, then one has not surrendered.

Well, the Quran tells us the there are belivers who commit sins (evil) and they have been g9iven chances to repent and not to insist on the evil again, if they do that then their sins (evil) will be converted to good deeds

But if I follow your reasoning, then there are those who are doing every kinds of evil, yet they have surrendered to God. Yet, they are muslims.

Of course they be treated as such, please don?t mix the sins

We have the mother of all sins ?Kufr and shirk? and this will never be forgiven as Allah told us many times

And we have the others sins between us ?our affairs?, now all these sins can be forgiven if you are a true believers and only did the sins once or twice then repented and never do it again for the rest of the life

If they insist on doing it then I?m sorry they will be classified as disbelievers and bad doers at the same time

What do you think?

Well, thanks for confirming my argument with 2112

Maybe doing good and submitting/surrendering to god is one and the same?

Nadeem

100% false because you considering that apples are mangos and this can?t happen, the first is surrendering to Allah and be dependant on Him in every aspect, the second is doing good to other humans

how you consider the two are the same? well, Allah always defrentiated between the two

cheers

nadeem

Hi Brother Ahmed Bahgat -)

I believe you have misread me -)

2112
Nay, but whosoever surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Bala man aslama wajhahu lillahi wahuwa muhsinun falahu ajruhu AAinda rabbihi wala khawfun AAalayhim wala hum yahzanoona

On " a whole heap of verses" you have considered the term "wahuwa Mumin" a condition for the acceptance of good deeds.

If I follow your reasoning, then in 2112 the term "wahuwa muhsinun" - "And he is a maker of good", seems to be the condition set before submission is accepted. Do you agree?

Do you agree that ones submission to god is baseless unless it's accompanied with good deeds?

If I have understood you correctly, you believe that without belief, submission is baseless? True?

If so, then we must conclude that good deeds and belief are, if not the same thing, at least two equally important things. As out of 2112 we know that submission is nill without the making of good. And according to you, for the sake of argument, we know that submission is nill without belief.

So if we have submission and belief, and no good deeds, then submission falls away, and when submission falls away, then what use has belief?

I agree with that and sure 2112 confirmed that you must be a believer for the good deeds to be accepted

No. What it says is that in order for belief/submission to be accepted, one must be a maker of good. (that is following our line of thought)

The term Muhsineen - maker of good. Has not the quran stated that the muhsineen will be generously rewarded without the mention of belief?

1830
As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, we never fail to recompense those who work righteousness.

How come it says "we never fail to recompense those who work righteousness." and not "we never fail to recompense those who work righteousness and believe". ?

472
Those who believe and work righteousness, and believe in what was sent down to Muhammad - which is the truth from their Lord - He remits their sins, and blesses them with contentment

Verse 472 is a little interesting. When it says "Those who believe", we assume it's referring to believing in Muhammad. But if that's true, why is god saying "and believe in what was sent down to Muhammad" when supposedly that's exactly what the "believe" in "those who believe" refers to?

What does the "believe" in "those who believe" refer to?

Nadeem

unknownuser

Hi Brother Ahmed Bahgat -)

Hello mate

I believe you have misread me -)

Sorry if I did, however I believe your argument is ?You only need to do good deeds to prosper on the JD?, and sure the argument is flawed, but I guess you need to advice me on your status regarding the Quran and Allah so I don?t get it that wrong Are you a Quran believer and a Submitter to Allah?, you don?t have to answer the Question however your answer will make it easy for me to know where you are coming from exactly

2112
Nay, but whosoever surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Bala man aslama wajhahu lillahi wahuwa muhsinun falahu ajruhu AAinda rabbihi wala khawfun AAalayhim wala hum yahzanoona

Let?s bring the verse again along with the previous verse 2111 because the word ?Bala? means that 2112 is a reply to the argument by the Jews and Christians in 2111

111- And they say None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say Bring your proof if you are truthful.

112- Yes! whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve.

(111)
(112)

-> In 2111 the Jews and Christians said ? None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian?, Allah is responding to them with a sort of mocking them at the same time ? These are their vain desires?, then Allah it telling Mohammad to tell them ? Say Bring your proof if you are truthful.?

-> In 2112 Allah is telling them and all humanity for that matter who will enter the Garden ?whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve.?, now I don?t really understand what you are trying to prove exactly, the same 3 conditions were mentioned, what is your point regarding the order of the two conditions required to enter the garden, if I need 1 & 2 to enter the Garden, why the hell needing 2 & 1 to enter the Garden makes no sense to you?, well fine let?s just waste no more time after the compelling verses I provided and even proved by the verse you provided and just cut the chase

We read in the Quran

And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

(85)

-> Allah is telling us that whoever is not a Muslim, all their deeds will not be accepted and in the JD he/she will be one of the losers ? And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers?, how clear is that bro?, do I need to spell kit out letter by letter? Well no I don?t need to do that because it is clear and simple enough to understand by a child but what I will do is this I will jump from 385 six verses down to 391

Surely, those who disbelieve and die while they are unbelievers, the earth full of gold shall not be accepted from one of them, though he should offer to ransom himself with it, these it is who shall have a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers.

(91)

-> Here we go again bro ? Surely, those who disbelieve and die while they are unbelievers, the earth full of gold shall not be accepted from one of them, though he should offer to ransom himself with it?, do I need to spell it pout bro?, well let?s continue reading the verse ? these it is who shall have a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers?, as clear as it can get bro, no mention to any deeds rather disbelieving will earn you a painful chastisement, and you shall have no helpers.

Please insight me on how you understand the meaning of a disbeliever mentioned in 391?

As well please insight me how the deeds (good or bad) affect 385 and 391?, thanks

Now we have an interesting verse

18- For those who respond to their Lord, are (all) good things. But those who respond not to Him,- Even if they had all that is in the heavens and on earth, and as much more, (in vain) would they offer it for ransom. For them will the reckoning be terrible their abode will be Hell,- what a bed of misery!

19- Is he then who knows that what has been revealed to you from your Lord is the truth like him who is blind? Only those possessed of understanding will mind,

(1
(19)

-> Now please tell me what 1318 means by

For those who respond to their Lord
But those who respond not to Him

Would you reckon that the first group are those mentioned in 1319 ? Is he then who knows that what has been revealed to you from your Lord is the truth like him who is blind? Only those possessed of understanding will mind?, ?, now if you agree then would you reckon that anyone who reject the Quran "blind" should fall in the second group mentioned above?

On " a whole heap of verses" you have considered the term "wahuwa Mumin" a condition for the acceptance of good deeds.

Of course

If I follow your reasoning, then in 2112 the term "wahuwa muhsinun" - "And he is a maker of good", seems to be the condition set before submission is accepted. Do you agree?

I agree but this is irrelevant

The both are required for 100% prosperity on the JD

In fact one takes precedence on the other, I?m not talking about your silly argument which one happned first, and this is a joke

If you are a believer with all good deeds done, then 100% prosperity will be earned

If you are a believer with some sins and good deeds done then it may not be 100% prosperity but these group of people will be entitled to forgiveness because they passed the more important ?the faith test?

If you are a believer with many sins and not many good deeds done then again it may not be 100% prosperity but this group of people will also be entitled to forgiveness because they passed the more important ?the faith test?

If you are a believer with all bad deeds and no good deeds then you still be entitled to forgiveness after a period of paying the dues

It makes great sense to me indeed, now please don?t ask me the silly question on how a believer can be one while all he/she has done are bad deeds?, well I based the above analysis from Allah perspective that He knows who is a believer and who is not

How come a disbeliever in Allah should be entitled to His fogginess?, well that is why Allah told us He will never forgive that sin

unknownuser

Do you agree that ones submission to god is baseless unless it's accompanied with good deeds?

I agree that this is how it should be but I don?t agree that if it is not the case then those will be considered unbelievers because if they claim to believe in Allah and His words, then Allah is the One to know that not us, if they break the laws by committing crimes like murder , theft, etc? and they get caught then they have to pay their dues in this life, on the JD however if they are believers then it will be up to Allah to forgive them or not, the problem here that those assumed believers have put themselves in a tough account procedure on the JD, those who submit and do good deeds and hardly done any bad deed will secure an easy account on the JD

6- O man! surely you must strive (to attain) to your Lord, a hard striving until you meet Him.
7- Then whoso is given his account in his right hand
8- He truly will receive an easy reckoning

(6)
(7)
(

-> So do you think those who disbelieved Allah and only did good deeds all their life will receive their book in their right hand and be reckoned with ease?

Actually if you read further in sura 84 you will see that those who will receive their books behind their back will burn in hell and the only reason given was verse 8414

14- Truly, did he think that he would not have to return (to Us)!.

(14)

-> See those who disbelieved Allah that there will be JD, Account then Hell or Garden for eternity, will be burnt in hell, the verse never mentioned their good deeds, their rejection to the JD was enough to make them losers.

If I have understood you correctly, you believe that without belief, submission is baseless? True?

I never said that really, but this is another subject regarding ?Mumin and Muslim?

Islam is the highest level of belief, i.e. you can not be a Muslim without being a Mumin first but you can be a Mumin without being a Muslim

If so, then we must conclude that good deeds and belief are, if not the same thing,

Why is that?

How come mangos are the same as cucumbers?

Please bro don?t keep repeating your silly arguments unless you can back it up with new evidences from the Quran, cheers

at least two equally important things.

not really, belief is far more important because SIMPLY AND LOGICALLY

if I?m a believer then I?m entitled to forgiveness of my sins ?the good deeds has nothing to do here?
if I?m not a believer then I will not be entitled to forgiveness as well I can shove my good deeds

so which you reckon is more important?

As out of 2112 we know that submission is nill without the making of good.

Not really because the verse never said that, it is you who is saying that, the verse only said those who believe while doing good deeds won?t be scared on the JD, I think I put it very simple for you here

And according to you, for the sake of argument, we know that submission is nill without belief.

I agree with that of course you can?t be a Muslim without being a Mumin first

So if we have submission and belief, and no good deeds, then submission falls away, and when submission falls away, then what use has belief?

Bro this is one hell of a silly argument, I?m sorry I have to skip that

I agree with that and sure 2112 confirmed that you must be a believer for the good deeds to be accepted

No. What it says is that in order for belief/submission to be accepted, one must be a maker of good. (that is following our line of thought)

I can?t believe this bro, you are the one who is saying this, 2112 never said that, here it is again

Yes! whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve.

That does not sound at all as you are trying to imply

The term Muhsineen - maker of good. Has not the quran stated that the muhsineen will be generously rewarded without the mention of belief?

Well, we have two types of Muhsineen

The believers Muhsineen and they can be rewarded in this life and on the JD for their good deeds

The unbelievers Muhsineen, and they will reworded on this life only, on the JD they will be barbecued

1830
As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, we never fail to recompense those who work righteousness.

How come it says "we never fail to recompense those who work righteousness." and not "we never fail to recompense those who work righteousness and believe". ?

So it confirms what I said that you need both believe and godd deeds to go to the garden, I wonder how you missed the start ? As for those who believe and lead a righteous life?

Now let me ask you this simple question

Someone who reject to believe that the Quran is the words of Allah, would you classify the person a believer or not?

472
Those who believe and work righteousness, and believe in what was sent down to Muhammad - which is the truth from their Lord - He remits their sins, and blesses them with contentment

Verse 472 is a little interesting. When it says "Those who believe", we assume it's referring to believing in Muhammad. But if that's true, why is god saying "and believe in what was sent down to Muhammad" when supposedly that's exactly what the "believe" in "those who believe" refers to?

What does the "believe" in "those who believe" refer to?

Nadeem

Haha.

Well the verse is covering those believers before Mohammad

This is enough bro, you can be a disbeliever and do good deed if you think that this is enough to save yourself on the JD

Salam

phoenix1

peace

I don't know where this discussion is now, but just wanted to say that "doing good works" is the result of believing. We believe when we stop setting up partners to the ONE being. When we stop making seperations to the whole. When we stop committing shirk. When we see everything as one, and us as part of a whole, our ego dies and we become indefinitely unSELFish. We do good for others without worrying about ourselves.

warner

Peace be upon you

Peace Ahmed

If a ? believer? keeps doing evil without repenting and amending isn?t this ascribing partners to God since doing evil will constitute to serving the evil one (also your self or ego and worldly and material possessions) and will not constitute to serving God only.

Since ascribing partners by thought, word or action will not be forgiven on the Day of Judgment.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you

Peace Ahmed

If a believer keeps doing evil without repenting and amending isnt this ascribing partners to God since doing evil will constitute to serving the evil one (also your self or ego and worldly and material possessions) and will not constitute to serving God only.

Since ascribing partners by thought, word or action will not be forgiven on the Day of Judgment.

Of course

Cheers

unknownuser

Peace warner and all. The beliefs/theories are things like a single day of judgement,pork being forbidden,the quran being unchanged literally for 1400 years,the jinns being made from fire etc,etc...In other words,they are not proven,but believed because people think that god/quran wants/expects them to believe in them...
Even if you follow 1736 to verify these 'beliefs',i dont see how these beliefs can be verified until they happen? Or can they?
Many people believe things because they feel not believing in them will cause them to be lesser or bad muslims,so they believe out of pressure and fear,not because they have verified the beliefs and found them to be correct...

warner

Peace Enquirer

According to you, on that basis we can not believe in God, His scriptures (Bible and Quraan) and messengers because we can not verify?

unknownuser

Peace warner. Some folks can verify god by explaining the concept of god in a different manner....Check idolfrees' posts on how to verify god,quran,scriptures,messengers etc...
Take it easy.

warner

Peace Enquirer,

It?s a great new way to believe in God and messengers. ?I am not really sure about God but if you want to know you can read through Idolfrees 3000 different posts and try to verify?.

Can you please tell me do you believe or not or else at least explain the ?concept of God in a different manner? without running to Idolfree and without being so secretive about God and put us out of this misery of wrong understandings. Surely you should have some idea by now on your own.

unknownuser

Peace warner. I personally do not need any concept of god to keep me happy...I look to cause and effect my friend....I directed you to idolfree because his interpretation of god is one i partly can live with,and can be verifed partially....I appreciate the guy has 4000+ posts....Check the search engine if you have time.....If a person called god nature or reality i could live with that as well.....In numerous posts i have stated my views on god/concepts of god....I only have 1500+ posts so there are less to look at.... I could be called an atheist by some,but i do verify that humans have power,gravity has power,animals have power,as do all the ingredients/entities that make up reality and nature...I dont verify that there is ONE entity/god in full control and possesing all power,eg i reject pure monotheism.
What does god mean to you?
ps;i dont want to speak on behalf of idolfree,but i think his view is that the subjective part of god is our 'conciousness',and the objective part of god is the conciousness of the whole of all that exists,along with all the universal laws/cause and effect which this 'objective' part brings about.....I may be wrong in exactly how idolfree defines god....maybe other folks can reference his work...
Take it easy... peace

nadeem

Hei Brother Ahmad,

I've tried to explain what I mean to as good as I can. But you do not understand me, nor do I understand you. So I am following Savage_carrots advice to leave it after we have made our points. And here is my point

39061
And God will save those who were righteous as their reward. No harm will touch them, nor will they grieve

As to what is righteous

2177
Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is

A)
1 - one who believes in God
2 - and the Last Day,
3 - and the Angels,
4 - and the Scripture,
5 - and the prophets,

B)
6 - and he gives money out of love to the relatives,
7 - and the orphans,
8 - and the needy
9 - and the wayfarer,
10 - and those who ask,
11 - and to free the slaves;
12 - and he honours the oath of allegiance,
13 - and he contributes towards betterment;
14 - as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge,
15 - and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair.

These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.(ny own numbering)

A third of rigtheousness is about belief. Two thirds are about good actions.

Satan, a rejecter, did not deny part A - he has no doubt about them whatsoever. He was in a state of certainty that no human can reach. Yet, he is a rejecter. Why? He failed to uphold part B.

Nadeem

unknownuser

Peace Enquirer,

Its a great new way to believe in God and messengers. I am not really sure about God but if you want to know you can read through Idolfrees 3000 different posts and try to verify.

Can you please tell me do you believe or not or else at least explain the concept of God in a different manner without running to Idolfree and without being so secretive about God and put us out of this misery of wrong understandings. Surely you should have some idea by now on your own.

LOL bro

surely he must be following Idolfree insights , then why he didnlt tyell you about it?

well here is one "Mohammad never existed because he was a metaphor"

Good luck warner

Cheers

warner

Peace

With all respect to my brothers and sisters in the forum I guess the story of Satan being a believer (or not) is a useless argument. There was nothing for Satan to believe, in fact he was a witness according to the Quraan. Satan saw it, knew it. Satan was there in Gods presence with the angels, refused to bow to Adam, mislead Adam and Eve and challenged God that he will lead many astray. When you know a fact for certain the question of believing does not arise.

warner

Peace Enquirer

as do all the ingredients/entities that make up reality and nature...I dont verify that there is ONE entity/god in full control and possesing all power,eg i reject pure monotheism.

What are ?all the ingredients/entities that make up reality? ?

unknownuser

Peace warner. These ingredients are all the 'things' that we know,and also all those things that we dont know...

warner

Peace Enquirer

Peace warner. I personally do not need any concept of god to keep me happy...I look to cause and effect my friend....I directed you to idolfree because his interpretation of god is one i partly can live with,and can be verifed partially....I appreciate the guy has 4000+ posts....Check the search engine if you have time.....If a person called god nature or reality i could live with that as well.....In numerous posts i have stated my views on god/concepts of god....I only have 1500+ posts so there are less to look at.... I could be called an atheist by some,but i do verify that humans have power,gravity has power,animals have power,as do all the ingredients/entities that make up reality and nature...I dont verify that there is ONE entity/god in full control and possesing all power,eg i reject pure monotheism.
What does god mean to you?
ps;i dont want to speak on behalf of idolfree,but i think his view is that the subjective part of god is our 'conciousness',and the objective part of god is the conciousness of the whole of all that exists,along with all the universal laws/cause and effect which this 'objective' part brings about.....I may be wrong in exactly how idolfree defines god....maybe other folks can reference his work...
Take it easy... peace

I am trying to fathom your above explanations.

According to you,

God is cause and effect, nature or reality

Since Humans have power, gravity has power, animals have power, and all the ingredients/entities that make up reality and nature God can not have all the power. Can you explain a little more please?

Since according to you subjective part of God is our consciousness, God could not have existed before us. So rather God is our creation (creation of our consciousness) rather than we are His creation.

And I do not understand how you mixed ?our consciousness? and ?consciousness of the whole of all that exists with all the universal laws/cause and effect? to create a God which you are happy with. Can you explain please?

nadeem

Peace

With all respect to my brothers and sisters in the forum I guess the story of Satan being a believer (or not) is a useless argument. There was nothing for Satan to believe, in fact he was a witness according to the Quraan. Satan saw it, knew it. Satan was there in Gods presence with the angels, refused to bow to Adam, mislead Adam and Eve and challenged God that he will lead many astray. When you know a fact for certain the question of believing does not arise.

Hi Bro Warner!

That further solidifies my argument. If certainty and knowledge cannot save one from becoming a rejecter, than what can mere belief do?

Just to clarify, I believe that there is a difference between what is normally recognized as "belief" and the quranic usage of "belief". I believe that the former manifests itself in ackowledgment of something, whilst the latter manifests itself in the attidude of someone. In my posts, like this one, is use the word belief as it is normally understood.

Nadeem