You Have Been Warned
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DanishEnough has been said about this insane 'ayatollah' and I am done with this thread. I will not respond to this belligerent, bigoted and fanatic mquran unless he stops infiltrated remarks to begin/end his every rebuttal.
And unless you actually know what you're talking about. That really helps, you know.
I shall take my criticisms at the 'divinity' section and hope members can fairly DISCUSS and NOT CUSS around by carefully analyzing my criticisms. I will explain my statements there.
Well, as long as you answer. Them's the rules you know, actually proving what one says, unlike schizophrenicforums.com where one changes religion every year...
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Why are you talking about pizza, youre making me hungry.
Ahmed come back, sort out this mess, its your thread rotflGood morning bro
Yeh man what a mess
can I ask all parties to refrain themselves from insults so this thread is noot spoiled?, or I will get into it and bloody spoil it all
Cheers
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Peace Bro Ahmed
May Allah increase me in faith and understanding
Take care
NobleBro
I read the article quickly
not sure what is all about, I senses it is about
- the Quran is created and is not eternal
- those who believe in the Quran are idolising a partner to Allah
is that right bro?
Cheers
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Salam Bro Ahmed
It is about the arguments between muslim scholars as early as 150 AH about whether the Quran is created or uncreated.
This is my comment These arguments even though from the time of Imam Malik show that early muslims scholars could make the mistake of arguing about things they have no knowledge of, and which are of no benefit to them and maybe could harm them because they are talking about matters that are undecidable due to the logical weakness of languages.
They were influenced by the thoughts of the Greek philosophers, and it would have been better for them to focus on translating the Quran to the different languages of the people who embraced Islam, than translate the Greek philosophers writings from Greek to Arabic, and then use that Greek philosophy logic to argue about the Quran.
I believe this is how the decline of the Ummah started...
PS Plus giving the greek heritage back to western civilsation who thank muslims for it, saying that greek civilization is the mother of modern civilzation, meaning the muslims created fitna for the kufars preserving and giving them a non-muslim framework to operate on!!! -
I think the debate between whether the qur'aan is created or eternal is much deeper and entails a lot of difference in understanding some basic things we still argue about.
Those who believe it is created, support their view with the fact that the only eternal "entity" is God, and believing in a seperate eternal thing is idolatory. They also believ that if it were eternal, then the stories about people who were punished were already known to God and decided by Him, and that contradicts the free will of humans. This leads to the debate about "pre-destined destiny".
This was "the mother of debates" that opened the door to many more debates.
Hey! Are we changing "the debate"?
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Salam noble and Samia
Yeh mate, I agree with your views, I really care less it is created or eternal, i only care about its content for that matter, nothing more nothing less, for me Allah words represents Allah because I can't see Allah so His words must be representing Him, it is like I'm hearing Him
Yeh let's change the debate and concentrate on the metaphor thingy
imagine I went to Russia , I'm sure you and Samia know Russia, so Russia for all three of us exist as a place, now I visited a city called BlahBlah in there and told you about it, both of you never heard of that city in Russia, so I strated to describe it to you and said yeh the city BlahBlah is similar to the City NY, where you, me, and Samia knows NYC very well
now from my perspective, both cities BlahBlah and NY exist
and from your perpective ( you and Samia ) you only sure that NYC exicts, and because you trust me then you will take what I said for granted that BlahBlah city in Russia exits, then we end up that the city blahblah exist for all 3 of us, unless there is a reason for me to lie or fabricate the story, and it is quite possible with humans to do as such but I have to ask you both you and Samia, would both of you consider that Allah has no reason to fabricate anything on His creatures, therefore if Allah is telling us that Paradise is like so and so, this means Paraidse exist for real for all us, do you agree?
Salam
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Salaam Ahmed
Of course I believe there is hell and there is paradise. But I do not think others who believe in metaphore do not believe that hell and gennah will exist, otherwise it would mean they do not believe in JD, and this we should not conclude from their reasoning of metaphore.
It is easy to imagine hell, because we know what is fire; we all have experienced at least a burnt finger or a tiny part of our skin, and we all do not like that. But the problem is to believe everything in Paradise. Should we expect literally rivers of honey and milk, fruits (even we never heard of) and beautiful virgins? What would motivate a woman in this (or even a man)? When you are hungry, would you dream of milk, honey and fruit? Are they even unattained luxuries in our lives? Honestly, if I have to take hell and gennah literally, I would be very disappointed to find that after all my good deeds I will find myself surrounded by the most beautiful virgins. Even if I would be one of them, it would still be "torture" because beauty will lose its meaning (in the absense of ugliness). I personally am intolerent to milk, I hate fruits but can drink the juice for a balanced meal. So, am I left with honey to motivate me?
This understanding, I believe , is the reason why most moslems just avoid doing bad things, but at the same time they do not really do good work. They do commit sins, but then they calculate ( one good thing = 10 points; one sin= 1point, therefore I can sin nine times and do good once and I will still pass and not go to hell mission accomplished). God says about their calculations
18104 "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they were calculating that they were acquiring good by their deeds".
And why was that? Because by believing literally in the description of hell and paradise, they are very "afraid" from hell but not really motivated by paradise.
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Salaam Ahmed
Salam Samia
Of course I believe there is hell and there is paradise. But I do not think others who believe in metaphore do not believe that hell and gennah will exist, otherwise it would mean they do not believe in JD, and this we should not conclude from their reasoning of metaphore.
Good
But for those who believe it exists, does it exist according to what they think it is or does exist according to what Allah said about it?
It is easy to imagine hell, because we know what is fire;
I believe it can be freezing cold as well, I think there is a verse in the Quran that suggest as such, I have to find it though
we all have experienced at least a burnt finger or a tiny part of our skin, and we all do not like that.
well, the ultimate honesty of Allah means He has to tell us what it is exactly. Fire alone is very vague if He intended all these sorts of punishments described by Him
But the problem is to believe everything in Paradise. Should we expect literally rivers of honey and milk, fruits (even we never heard of) and beautiful virgins?
Excluding the vigins, due to the fact the word Hoor is a tough one, yes the rivers of milk and honey is very clear descriptions and that is what I expect because that is what Allah said, anything else I will come up with from humans is CLEAR CUT SHIRK
What would motivate a woman in this (or even a man)?
Do you mean the rivers, or the sex?
Just being in a beautiful place for eternity is enough of a motivation, but what I sense that you are indirectly saying that Allah is talking vain , I.e He told things that was not important to tell
When you are hungry, would you dream of milk, honey and fruit?
There is no hunger in Paradise as far as I?m aware, neither we will piss , I also believe there will be no sleep no dreams in paradise, it will be reality at its max
Are they even unattained luxuries in our lives? Honestly, if I have to take hell and gennah literally, I would be very disappointed to find that after all my good deeds I will find myself surrounded by the most beautiful virgins. Even if I would be one of them, it would still be "torture" because beauty will lose its meaning (in the absense of ugliness). I personally am intolerent to milk, I hate fruits but can drink the juice for a balanced meal. So, am I left with honey to motivate me?
Well, to be honest I never though deep in the details of Paradise, it really does not concern me because I won?t worship Allah to a reward, my reward will be His pleasure and if that is achieved then I will achieve everything I want
For your milk problem, I believe you can ask for a totally new drink that never existed before and your wish will be granted so I guess you will be very busy thinking of all the things you can imagine and want and it will be in front of your eyes on the fly
This understanding, I believe , is the reason why most moslems just avoid doing bad things,
How do you know that most Muslims do that?, I found most Muslims I met in reality do the opposite actually
but at the same time they do not really do good work.
that was a tough call to judge, I can?t judge that really because many good deeds are done in secret
They do commit sins,
I agree, they are humans I guess
but then they calculate ( one good thing = 10 points;
well, I guess they missed that Allah can multiply it to 700 and even more than that
one sin= 1point,
well, it is not really points, it is an equivalent punishment to one committed sin
therefore I can sin nine times and do good once and I will still pass and not go to hell mission accomplished).
LOL, it does not work this way sister, I believe this is how it works
- I do good deed, then I will be rewarded for it
- I do bad deed, then I will be punished for it
Both reward and punishment will be delivered if I do both acts, i.e. non will overwrite the other, only Allah forgiveness will overwrite the sins, i.e. if someone made a whole heap of good deeds, and one major sin all his life, he will be held accountable to his sin and he must pay his dues regardless the amount of good deeds, if Allah wants to forgive that sin then this is how the sinful will be saved.
God says about their calculations
18104 "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they were calculating that they were acquiring good by their deeds".
I don?t think the word calculating is the right translation, it has to be ?Thinking?, so the translation should be as follow
18104 "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they were THINKING that they were acquiring good by their deeds".
And why was that? Because by believing literally in the description of hell and paradise, they are very "afraid" from hell but not really motivated by paradise.
I really don?t think what you said above has any merit, sorry
Cheers
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Salaam Ahmed
Can you please write down verse 18104 in Arabic?
peace sister
give me 15 munites as i need to give my son a bath
talk to you soon
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Hi Samia
Here it is
(104)
Salam
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Thanks Ahmed.
In "lisanul 3arab", the first meaning is "to be enough", secondly "to compute". To "think" is a derived meaning, not an original one. It further says that to think is usually written as (ya7sib), as this is one of four rare letters where the past is (fa3ila) and the present is (yaf3il). It gave only one example of verse 1043 where it says some companions read it as "ya7sib).
If they (think) they are doing good, then this could be out of ignorance, problem with comprehension, genetic distortion..etc and they could be forgiven for that. But when they (calculate), they know and they are trying to fool around. You get what I mean?
Since God used the verb (yathun ن, I would believe that this verb (ya7sib) has a differece embedded in it. Remember that perfect synonyms do not exist.
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Thanks Ahmed.
No worries, but please not again
In "lisanul 3arab", the first meaning is "to be enough", secondly "to compute". To "think" is a derived meaning, not an original one.
Far out sister, well, I will shove that lisan Al arab inside the toilet if you don't mind, sorry i'm just frustrated a bit, so you work it out by the order, hey?
It further says that to think is usually written as (ya7sib), as this is one of four rare letters where the past is (fa3ila) and the present is (yaf3il). It gave only one example of verse 1043 where it says some companions read it as "ya7sib).
Sister the above is total non sesne, sorry
please respond to this verse
Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?
(2)
If they (think) they are doing good, then this could be out of ignorance, problem with comprehension, genetic distortion..etc and they could be forgiven for that. But when they (calculate), they know and they are trying to fool around. You get what I mean?
Sister, you are wasting your time and mine, Hasab is very common on Arabivc to mean "Think", no doubt about it, yes it also means calculate but you need the mafool bihi so we know what is being caculated exactly
Since God used the verb (yathun ن, I would believe that this verb (ya7sib) has a differece embedded in it. Remember that perfect synonyms do not exist.
He also used the word hasab as to think 292
Cheers
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Peace
Bro Ahmed, Sis Samia,
You both have good points and weak points. Generally you are both right.
Ahmed, good deeds wipe out bad deeds...
and Hell will also be freezing cold...
Take care
Noble
PS Let us not exagerate in our Deen like sunnists/shi'st/hadithists and christian priesthoods, Allah made the Deen easy -
Peace
Bro Ahmed, Sis Samia,
You both have good points and weak points. Generally you are both right.
Ahmed, good deeds wipe out bad deeds...
and Hell will also be freezing cold...
Take care
Noble
PS Let us not exagerate in our Deen like sunnists/shi'st/hadithists and christian priesthoods, Allah made the Deen easyPeace Noble
Can you please show me a verse where it says good deeds wipe bad deeds please?
btw we are not exagerateing our deen, we are trying to understand it using the Quran, so if anything I said that does not exist in the Quran, I apologose to all
salam
Salam
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Salam Ahmed
Apologies accepted
It is in Quran, I think around an ayat that talks about Salat. I will find it eventually. Look for the keyword yamhuha.
Btw look also for the surah Almuzzamil or Almuddathir, where you can see that the Prophet prayed more than the other Sahaba, even if some of them followed his lead, but Allah told them that they did not have to, so this is proof that in some cases the Prophet was asked to do more than the other muslims...
Take care Bro
PS My way of remembering the Quran is quite peculiar as I read it thousands of times, but never managed to learn it by heart, however I learnt a few surahs by heart such as Almulk, and Arrahman, and many small surahs... But usually when I remember that something was mentioned I am rarely wrong that it was mentioned, only the context and interpretation can be faulty...
PPS I suffer from a mental disorder that makes it for me hard to learn by heart at the moment -
Salam Ahmed
Apologies accepted )Peace bro
Cheers
It is in Quran, I think around an ayat that talks about Salat. I will find it eventually. Look for the keyword yamhuha.
I will be interested to see it bro, if it exists as you said, i will concede.
Btw look also for the surah Almuzzamil or Almuddathir, where you can see that the Prophet prayed more than the other Sahaba, even if some of them followed his lead, but Allah told them that they did not have to, so this is proof that in some cases the Prophet was asked to do more than the other muslims...
Please bro bring the verses that you think means the above so we discuss it here, take your time though, no rush
I say that most of the verses talking in singualr "Mukhatab" "Speech to someone" has to be taken by the believers as a message for them, otherwise the whole concept will fall in many locations, this Quran is actually for mankind NOT to the prophet explicitly, while it was delivered by him and that is a great honor on its own, as well while it was talking about the prophet a lot, the whole thing is directed to us, we can't be the judge and say this is suppose to be for the prophet and this is for us, if you will classify the prophet as a BELIEVER then all the orders to him "unless explicit to his personal affairs" must be taken by all other believers as being orders to them as well, even the things that were explicit to the prophet, the lessons in it must be taken by all other believers
Therefore I don't think Allah tells the prophet explicitly to humble himself in fear of Him, and for us to humble ourselves period., it makes no sense bro, in fact if we talk sense then the prophets are the least to FEAR Allah, because they are His chosen elite of the best of all humans and paradise for them is sort of gurranteed, they sure knew that as we know it now, in fact they even communicated with Allah.
PS My way of remembering the Quran is quite peculiar as I read it thousands of times, but never managed to learn it by heart, however I learnt a few surahs by heart such as Almulk, and Arrahman, and many small surahs... But usually when I remember that something was mentioned I am rarely wrong that it was mentioned, only the context and interpretation can be faulty...
PPS I suffer from a mental disorder that makes it for me hard to learn by heart at the moment (I actually memorise about 4 small suras only, however i read the whole Quran in Arabic about 30 times or about, many of these times were very slow indeed cross referencing, looking for info, trying to understand and even trying to find a contradiction, and this enabled me to remind many WORDS from it by heart, so when i need to find a verse i have to remember ONE WORD from that verse, and i type this in an arabic search engine and wola all verses appear, sometime i get hundreds of verses as a result of fewer letter in the word I'm searching for and this is great because it allows me to go through it all and pick the ones that are relevent and while doing so I keep adding to the words I memorise by heart, it feels great bro, that is why I have the stamina because I enjoy it
Take care