You Have Been Warned
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Because, as I've always said, the focus shouldn't be on who is right and who is wrong, but on WHAT is correct and incorrect.
When we type our posts, we should be at peace, and we should focus on the right thing.Dude, you don't get it, do you ? Once again, no offense but let me spell it out for you, ok
Your beliefs are of no concern to me. We all have to face Allah on our own.
What DOES concern me is what is displayed in this (still called Quranic) forum. We get people who come, criticise AQ and REFUSE TO ANSWER. If they just say 'well, i dont know thats my feeling', that's fine but when someone says 'REALISTICALLY, LOGICALLY AND SCIENTIFICALLY', its referring to an objective epistemology which of course, does not exist. Danish isn't out to discuss anything. He's out to vent and I hope you understand this.
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peace
the above two posts are a great example of how it all starts.
If you're asking a question, why not just ask the question instead of topping it with insults?
and if someone asks you a question (yes you Danish), it's polite to answer it instead of throwing more insults.
grow up!
peacePoliteness and fairness in discussions seems a martian theory in mquran's "dictionary"? Each time I bring about a criticism, he addresses them with 'defecations/unrinations", condemnations and either begins or ends with insulting remarks (as seen above and in all his other posts), which obviously gets retaliated. How can one be polite to begin with while the other impolite to end it, in order to take up any discussion for its intended purpose?
He has already made clear of his position to make this forum a political battle zone. So much for polite and fair discussions. Where do members go from here? As mentioned earlier, everyone must succumb and submit to this hostile, dreadful and dictatorial ayatollah-cum-regime he wants to take over.
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peace Danish, MQ,
why don't you two have a one-on-one debate (not "moderated". Just you two post. Keep out the insults so we can get some things cleared up. And maybe you'll find you agree on more than you think.
and Danish, aap ko meri post ka jawaab dene mein koi etraaz to nahin? "nature of God" section mein.
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Here is another one of mquran's posts which is begging its proper place on this forum
Re The Tragedy of TYRANNICAL-minds (formerly 'free-minds'
? Reply #89 on July 25, 2006, 044137 AM ?
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DanishYou seriously need is a psychiatric help.Those madrassa people really should import a qualified english teacher.
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What is criticism? Lets have a closer look- The act of criticizing, especially adversely.
- A critical comment or judgment.
- a. The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or other artistic works.
b. A critical article or essay; a critique.
c. The investigation of the origin and history of literary documents; textual criticism
Your dictionary is not my furqaan. My furqaan is AQ and its concept of jidaal/argumention doesnt include part 3c. It's sad that your limited capacities cannot grasp this, but hey-ho.
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There's no harm per se in saying 'AQ is an old book, not suitable for modern times'
When I and Enquirer mentioned this very statement above, he jumped head-over-heels in defiance and here he is saying that ?there?s no harm?.Did you madrassa teach you to lie or did they forget to teach you how read complete paragraphs? Here's what I said
Criticism is a good thing. There's no harm per se in saying 'AQ is an old book, not suitable for modern times' but if you're going to say it, stand by it. What is modernity and why is it our criteria? This the critics of AQ have refused to face. This isn't about accepting AQ as divine, this is about decency.
It's only a low and deceptive person who would use such tactics. You're really the bottom of the barrel, Danish.
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I think its very clear from this episode that Danish doesn't know what he's on about. He simply says anything he can to disaparage the Quran while not caring about the beliefs of others. Phoenix, if this isnt clear to you, then there's nothing else I cant say. Don't bother calling this guy to debate. He needs to learn the meaning of the word first. Actually, AFTER he learns about 'realistic, logic and scientific'.
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DanishHere is another one of mquran's posts which is begging its proper place on this forum
In case you havent noticed, you deliberately misrepresented my quote there. Did the God you can never know teach you this or was this 'essence of nature' rubbish you keep bandying about?
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Enough has been said about this insane 'ayatollah' and I am done with this thread. I will not respond to this belligerent, bigoted and fanatic mquran unless he stops infiltrated remarks to begin/end his every rebuttal. I shall take my criticisms at the 'divinity' section and hope members can fairly DISCUSS and NOT CUSS around by carefully analyzing my criticisms. I will explain my statements there.
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Peace
Bro Ahmed
Yes it has the same emphasis. However the injunction or order was for the Prophet. I know Allah said He was the ultimate example for us, but I believe that it is very hard for the average believer to have the same faith as the Prophet himself...
Also are there other occurences of the word Khifa that is linked directly as an order to the Muslims, not the Prophet in isolation...
I told you I love arguing, but will probably not keep it up with you )
SalamPeace bro
I meant the same wazn not emphasis, I have to say bro that I can't argue this anymore, 7205 is actually to the believers not specific to the prophet, please read 7204 and you will see what I mean, however even if it is, do you think Allah is ordering the prophet to be humbe and fear Him and not be of the Ghafilin, and thos message os not for us as well?, it does not make sense bro, all the prophets are examples to us
Peace bro
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DanishEnough has been said about this insane 'ayatollah' and I am done with this thread. I will not respond to this belligerent, bigoted and fanatic mquran unless he stops infiltrated remarks to begin/end his every rebuttal.
And unless you actually know what you're talking about. That really helps, you know.
I shall take my criticisms at the 'divinity' section and hope members can fairly DISCUSS and NOT CUSS around by carefully analyzing my criticisms. I will explain my statements there.
Well, as long as you answer. Them's the rules you know, actually proving what one says, unlike schizophrenicforums.com where one changes religion every year...
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Why are you talking about pizza, youre making me hungry.
Ahmed come back, sort out this mess, its your thread rotflGood morning bro
Yeh man what a mess
can I ask all parties to refrain themselves from insults so this thread is noot spoiled?, or I will get into it and bloody spoil it all
Cheers
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Peace Bro Ahmed
May Allah increase me in faith and understanding
Take care
NobleBro
I read the article quickly
not sure what is all about, I senses it is about
- the Quran is created and is not eternal
- those who believe in the Quran are idolising a partner to Allah
is that right bro?
Cheers
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Salam Bro Ahmed
It is about the arguments between muslim scholars as early as 150 AH about whether the Quran is created or uncreated.
This is my comment These arguments even though from the time of Imam Malik show that early muslims scholars could make the mistake of arguing about things they have no knowledge of, and which are of no benefit to them and maybe could harm them because they are talking about matters that are undecidable due to the logical weakness of languages.
They were influenced by the thoughts of the Greek philosophers, and it would have been better for them to focus on translating the Quran to the different languages of the people who embraced Islam, than translate the Greek philosophers writings from Greek to Arabic, and then use that Greek philosophy logic to argue about the Quran.
I believe this is how the decline of the Ummah started...
PS Plus giving the greek heritage back to western civilsation who thank muslims for it, saying that greek civilization is the mother of modern civilzation, meaning the muslims created fitna for the kufars preserving and giving them a non-muslim framework to operate on!!! -
I think the debate between whether the qur'aan is created or eternal is much deeper and entails a lot of difference in understanding some basic things we still argue about.
Those who believe it is created, support their view with the fact that the only eternal "entity" is God, and believing in a seperate eternal thing is idolatory. They also believ that if it were eternal, then the stories about people who were punished were already known to God and decided by Him, and that contradicts the free will of humans. This leads to the debate about "pre-destined destiny".
This was "the mother of debates" that opened the door to many more debates.
Hey! Are we changing "the debate"?
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Salam noble and Samia
Yeh mate, I agree with your views, I really care less it is created or eternal, i only care about its content for that matter, nothing more nothing less, for me Allah words represents Allah because I can't see Allah so His words must be representing Him, it is like I'm hearing Him
Yeh let's change the debate and concentrate on the metaphor thingy
imagine I went to Russia , I'm sure you and Samia know Russia, so Russia for all three of us exist as a place, now I visited a city called BlahBlah in there and told you about it, both of you never heard of that city in Russia, so I strated to describe it to you and said yeh the city BlahBlah is similar to the City NY, where you, me, and Samia knows NYC very well
now from my perspective, both cities BlahBlah and NY exist
and from your perpective ( you and Samia ) you only sure that NYC exicts, and because you trust me then you will take what I said for granted that BlahBlah city in Russia exits, then we end up that the city blahblah exist for all 3 of us, unless there is a reason for me to lie or fabricate the story, and it is quite possible with humans to do as such but I have to ask you both you and Samia, would both of you consider that Allah has no reason to fabricate anything on His creatures, therefore if Allah is telling us that Paradise is like so and so, this means Paraidse exist for real for all us, do you agree?
Salam
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Salaam Ahmed
Of course I believe there is hell and there is paradise. But I do not think others who believe in metaphore do not believe that hell and gennah will exist, otherwise it would mean they do not believe in JD, and this we should not conclude from their reasoning of metaphore.
It is easy to imagine hell, because we know what is fire; we all have experienced at least a burnt finger or a tiny part of our skin, and we all do not like that. But the problem is to believe everything in Paradise. Should we expect literally rivers of honey and milk, fruits (even we never heard of) and beautiful virgins? What would motivate a woman in this (or even a man)? When you are hungry, would you dream of milk, honey and fruit? Are they even unattained luxuries in our lives? Honestly, if I have to take hell and gennah literally, I would be very disappointed to find that after all my good deeds I will find myself surrounded by the most beautiful virgins. Even if I would be one of them, it would still be "torture" because beauty will lose its meaning (in the absense of ugliness). I personally am intolerent to milk, I hate fruits but can drink the juice for a balanced meal. So, am I left with honey to motivate me?
This understanding, I believe , is the reason why most moslems just avoid doing bad things, but at the same time they do not really do good work. They do commit sins, but then they calculate ( one good thing = 10 points; one sin= 1point, therefore I can sin nine times and do good once and I will still pass and not go to hell mission accomplished). God says about their calculations
18104 "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they were calculating that they were acquiring good by their deeds".
And why was that? Because by believing literally in the description of hell and paradise, they are very "afraid" from hell but not really motivated by paradise.
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Salaam Ahmed
Salam Samia
Of course I believe there is hell and there is paradise. But I do not think others who believe in metaphore do not believe that hell and gennah will exist, otherwise it would mean they do not believe in JD, and this we should not conclude from their reasoning of metaphore.
Good
But for those who believe it exists, does it exist according to what they think it is or does exist according to what Allah said about it?
It is easy to imagine hell, because we know what is fire;
I believe it can be freezing cold as well, I think there is a verse in the Quran that suggest as such, I have to find it though
we all have experienced at least a burnt finger or a tiny part of our skin, and we all do not like that.
well, the ultimate honesty of Allah means He has to tell us what it is exactly. Fire alone is very vague if He intended all these sorts of punishments described by Him
But the problem is to believe everything in Paradise. Should we expect literally rivers of honey and milk, fruits (even we never heard of) and beautiful virgins?
Excluding the vigins, due to the fact the word Hoor is a tough one, yes the rivers of milk and honey is very clear descriptions and that is what I expect because that is what Allah said, anything else I will come up with from humans is CLEAR CUT SHIRK
What would motivate a woman in this (or even a man)?
Do you mean the rivers, or the sex?
Just being in a beautiful place for eternity is enough of a motivation, but what I sense that you are indirectly saying that Allah is talking vain , I.e He told things that was not important to tell
When you are hungry, would you dream of milk, honey and fruit?
There is no hunger in Paradise as far as I?m aware, neither we will piss , I also believe there will be no sleep no dreams in paradise, it will be reality at its max
Are they even unattained luxuries in our lives? Honestly, if I have to take hell and gennah literally, I would be very disappointed to find that after all my good deeds I will find myself surrounded by the most beautiful virgins. Even if I would be one of them, it would still be "torture" because beauty will lose its meaning (in the absense of ugliness). I personally am intolerent to milk, I hate fruits but can drink the juice for a balanced meal. So, am I left with honey to motivate me?
Well, to be honest I never though deep in the details of Paradise, it really does not concern me because I won?t worship Allah to a reward, my reward will be His pleasure and if that is achieved then I will achieve everything I want
For your milk problem, I believe you can ask for a totally new drink that never existed before and your wish will be granted so I guess you will be very busy thinking of all the things you can imagine and want and it will be in front of your eyes on the fly
This understanding, I believe , is the reason why most moslems just avoid doing bad things,
How do you know that most Muslims do that?, I found most Muslims I met in reality do the opposite actually
but at the same time they do not really do good work.
that was a tough call to judge, I can?t judge that really because many good deeds are done in secret
They do commit sins,
I agree, they are humans I guess
but then they calculate ( one good thing = 10 points;
well, I guess they missed that Allah can multiply it to 700 and even more than that
one sin= 1point,
well, it is not really points, it is an equivalent punishment to one committed sin
therefore I can sin nine times and do good once and I will still pass and not go to hell mission accomplished).
LOL, it does not work this way sister, I believe this is how it works
- I do good deed, then I will be rewarded for it
- I do bad deed, then I will be punished for it
Both reward and punishment will be delivered if I do both acts, i.e. non will overwrite the other, only Allah forgiveness will overwrite the sins, i.e. if someone made a whole heap of good deeds, and one major sin all his life, he will be held accountable to his sin and he must pay his dues regardless the amount of good deeds, if Allah wants to forgive that sin then this is how the sinful will be saved.
God says about their calculations
18104 "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they were calculating that they were acquiring good by their deeds".
I don?t think the word calculating is the right translation, it has to be ?Thinking?, so the translation should be as follow
18104 "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they were THINKING that they were acquiring good by their deeds".
And why was that? Because by believing literally in the description of hell and paradise, they are very "afraid" from hell but not really motivated by paradise.
I really don?t think what you said above has any merit, sorry
Cheers