Muhammad's Sunnah
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first off, no one responded "And He teaches you what you don't know"
that is something else than the Kitab and Hikmah
also I didn't say Sunnah is specific to Mohammad alone, the verse I brought STATED that Allah wants to guide us to the Sunnan of the people before us
Peace AB,
If you read my post i did respond to 'He teaches what you did not know'. It is in the middle of my post. It cannot be refuted. And i did understand you that you meant the Sunna of the earlier people, and i showed this Sunna is also complete in the Quran.
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Peace all
A very good logical and convincing argument you put together Arnold.
I prefer to look at the word sunnah referring to the ways of a group, not of an individual.
Sunnata' Allah is the way He has ordained all universal systems to work.
In our little sphere of influence as humans, we have a freedom of choice, and therefore can either choose to abide by sunnata' Allah, or create one of our own...
We cannot say sunnata' "an individual" though, this is why I believe saying sunnata Muhammed is so wrong...
Anyways, in my view, the muslims have become very lazy, and prefer to have scholars tell them what to do, instead of finding out for themselves what Allah wants from them...
Without that ability to think, question and investigate they have become door mats, and this is why we are like donkeys with everyone riding us...
With respect Ahmed, on this one I do not agree with you at all...
Salam
NoblePeace,
I'm totaly with you...
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first off, no one responded "And He teaches you what you don't know"
that is something else than the Kitab and Hikmah
also I didn't say Sunnah is specific to Mohammad alone, the verse I brought STATED that Allah wants to guide us to the Sunnan of the people before us
Peace AB,
If you read my post i did respond to 'He teaches what you did not know'. It is in the middle of my post. It cannot be refuted. And i did understand you that you meant the Sunna of the earlier people, and i showed this Sunna is also complete in the Quran.
I'm sorry, I'm not going to read your post, there is many info in there that irrelevent and I have no time to waste
what you can do is simply break up my comment and respond to the points that I mentioned exactly, I'm not interested in reading your lengthy stories, I will only be interested if you respond to my comment after breaking it up as I do with others comments
that is assuming you want a response to my comment directed at me, if your comment is for the public then fine let's leave it to the public
Salam
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Hello Public
As we have seen that 4113 & 2151 are telling us that the prophet was given 3 things to deliver to humanity those three things again as follow
1&2) ? ?, ?and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom?
- ? ?, ?and teaches you that which you did not know?
Those who say the three items are one are really acting like those Christians and their confusing trinity
1 + 1 + 1 = 1, Hahahahahah
anyway let?s examine two groups under the microscope and see what they followed of these 3 items
I will try the Sunni and the Quran Alone groups for argument sake, I don?t follow and never followed any of these groups btw, therefore my opinion can?t be biased
- and instructing you in Scripture
Do the Quran alone followers follow the prophet instructions regarding Al Quran? Of course not
Do the Sunni follow the prophet instructions regarding Al Quran? Of course yes
- and instructing you in Wisdom
Do the Quran alone followers follow the prophet instructions regarding Wisdom? Of course not
Do the Sunni follow the prophet instructions regarding Wisdom? Of course yes
- and teaches you that which you did not know
Do the Quran alone followers follow the prophet instructions regarding what we didn?t know? Of course not
Do the Sunni follow the prophet instructions regarding what we didn?t know? Of course yes
See, how close the Sunni will be to the religion of Islam than the self claimed Quran aloners?
Well, you can confirm the above with a very simple test, bring 5 quran aloners and 5 sunnis then ask them the following BASIC questions
- How many compulsory Salat we should do a day?
- When will be the times of those compulsory Salat every day?
- What is Shahr Ramdan?
- How many days we should fast in Ramadan?
- What is Al Masjid Al Haram?
- What is Al Kaaba?
That is enough I guess, now the test is not answering the question or not the test is about seeing how the 5 Quran aloners will give different answers to each question and the 5 sunni will give the same answer to the same question
Now what should follow is to analyse those answers using the Quran and I tell you public the Sunni seems far more reasonable and stable that those who follow the Quran aloneSalam Public
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Assalamu Alaikum Akhi,
Many thanks for your post. Ok then, a furtherance to this argument
If the case is as you say, that Sunni Muslims are unanimous on a matter where Qur'an Aloners are in a state of dischord.
How accurate do we treat these reports and traditions? What do we make of the reports pertaining to Abu Hurayra e.t.c.
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Peace,
I thought this discussion is about the truth. So when it's to lenghty you will take no effort to read it? It's irrelevant? This is the easy way out AB. If you were here for the truth, arguments as 'to long' would not have stopped you. It didn't stop Noble or other people. I expected more from you.
You waisted a whole post as i answered almost all of your questions in mine. You reject the most fundemental principles of the Quran and show arabic is not the only need for understanding the Quran.
And your questions
- How many compulsory Salat we should do a day?
- When will be the times of those compulsory Salat every day?
Explained in this article completly based on Quran ALONE
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat_edip.htm
- What is Shahr Ramdan?
- How many days we should fast in Ramadan?
Explained perfectly in this article based on Quran and reason
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
- What is Al Masjid Al Haram?
masjid means place of prostration/submission and haram means restriction, and thus literally means place where people bow to God's Restriction. This refers to a country where people bow to God's Laws, it refers to your house which should be run by God's restriction, your mind which also should be ruled by God's restriction. That it why it should by your Qibla, your point of focus, as we must make everything a masjid Al-haram, a place which is ruled by God's Restriction/Law. Everything must be ruled by the Deen.
- What is Al Kaaba?
The word "ka3b" means base. This is the common thread that runs accross the different forms and their meanings. For example, the word "ka3b" can mean heel (the base of the foot). It is also used in rural areas of Arabia as "ka3b al-wadi" (the base of the valley). The word "muka3ab" means cube (a shape with many bases). The word "tak3iba" means the base that grape vines climb on. I still need to research "kawa3ib" but it probably has something to do with having a strong base (not large breasts as traditionalists contend).
In the context of 597, the house is the base for humanity. To understand this, we need to understand the purpose of the house as a place to safely assemble and remember The God. I don't think that "bayt" (house) is the same as "deen" (obligation). Our obligation is to institute/implement the hearing and obeying of the forbidden. So "deen" is "al-masjid al-haram" not "al-bayt". The "bayt" is one of the means to accomplish the places of Deen, masjids al-Haram.
All answers based purely on Quran, natural observation and arabic.
Peace
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Assalamu Alaikum Akhi,
Many thanks for your post. Ok then, a furtherance to this argument
If the case is as you say, that Sunni Muslims are unanimous on a matter where Qur'an Aloners are in a state of dischord.
Peace bro
Not really as such, what I meant that the Sunnis are unanimous on the basics, I agree that the sunni show many confusion regarding other complicated matters like marrying 4 and other small issues, BUT NOT THE BASICS like Salat and Sawm for example
Bro Salat ans Sawm are two of the basics of our religion, how come the Quran alone are confused as such regarding these matters?, the sunni are not regarding the basics bro
therefore I only meant the basics of our religion
How accurate do we treat these reports and traditions? What do we make of the reports pertaining to Abu Hurayra e.t.c.
we treated it very bad indeed and our failure is evident 1400 years after and will stay as such if no contervesial action is taken against the hadith and how it should be filtered then compiled in an authorised book that is no way held holly as the Quran, just mere teachings from a great man who was explaining the Quran, the Hikmah and other things that we didn't know
I actually don't take Abu Hurayra seriously due to the doubt about his character that is recoreded in the hadith as well his rude comments to our mother and his mother "Aysha"
Peace
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Peace,
I thought this discussion is about the truth. So when it's to lenghty you will take no effort to read it? It's irrelevant? This is the easy way out AB. If you were here for the truth, arguments as 'to long' would not have stopped you. It didn't stop Noble or other people. I expected more from you.
Salam
I'm sorry this is how my new way will be, I will avoid discussing matters with some members and you are included with those unless it is done my way and my way is fair and is not a type of dectatorship
I asked you to break up my comment and respond to the points
that is all what I asked
thank you
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Bro Quraishi
Here is an example from the hadith in how the Quran qualifies the hadith, not the other way around
http//mail.aracom.com.au/ahmed/hadith/Hadith3.JPG
Let me try and explain the hadith "Musanad Ahmad"
Zaid Ibn Arqam stated that he was called to meet Obaid Allah Ibn Ziad
Obaid Allah Ibn Ziad told Zaid Ibn Arqam "What all these hadiths you say about the prophet SAWS and we don't find it in the Quran?, you said that the prophet will have Hawddan in Jannah?"
Not sure what Hawdan means but it sound like a nice place in Jannah, it seems that the hadith is giving expectional treatment to the prophet in Jannah Obaid was questioning it because it can't be found in the Quran
Then Zaid responded that he heard it from the prophet
Obaid responded back and said that "no you are a liar and obvioulsy and old man who is hulicinating"
then he stated the hadith that whoever lies about the prophet will have a secured seat in hell
now it is clear from the above hadith that whatever we hear about the prophet must be quailfied by the Quran first, consider like like a Notice of Notion and we see first if the Notion has merit by passing the Quran first
Salam bro
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then he stated the hadith that whoever lies about the prophet will have a secured seat in hell
Bro Ahmed,
This statement really scared me, and convinces me even more to keep away from Hadith altogether. Better safe than sorry...Bro Arnold
I found your Quran Alone argument very reasonable and convincing, but your interpretations in the later posts, as you know, I do not agree with. Let me give you my own views on the subject Masjid Al Haram might be in Jerusalem. It is unlikely Meccah is the place for pilgrimage but in fact the temple dome in Jerusalem. Masjid Al Aqsah is not on Earth...
And Allah knows best...Bro Ahmed
The Shia also agree on what they have to do, and are in fact more united into it than the sunnis, this does not mean they are correct, just that they are good followers, which is not a guarantee for truth, we cannot say the truth of that group is the best truth because they do not contradict one another...I already find what is in the Al Quran pretty heavy to follow, and we want to add extra bits to it like Hadith. I think, anyway for me, that going back to basics and unlearning all that poison I learnt from Hadith in the past 20 years, then implement what is in Quran from fresh is a better attitude...
Salam Bros
Noble -
Bro Ahmed,
This statement really scared me, and convinces me even more to keep away from Hadith altogether. Better safe than sorry...Salam bro
Exactly, so what excuse the hadith rejectors will say to Allah if they should follow what the prophet delivered and was not included in the Quran (Quran explanations, Hikmah and other things that we didn?t know)?
Well 4113, 2151 and 1664 will be a very strong argument against them
For me if I shouldn?t follow what the prophet delivered and was not included in the Quran (Quran explanations, Hikmah and other things that we didn?t know), then I will have a strong argument to my Creator using His own words 4113, 2151 and 1664 in my defence
So who may be sorry than safe?
Bro Ahmed
The Shia also agree on what they have to do, and are in fact more united into it than the sunnis, this does not mean they are correct, just that they are good followers, which is not a guarantee for truth, we cannot say the truth of that group is the best truth because they do not contradict one another...I?m sorry bro, you missed my point, I was talking about the basics like Salat and Sawm
Can you please tell me how many compulsory Salat you do a day and their times and from where you got the info, thanks?
I already find what is in the Al Quran pretty heavy to follow,
Of course but again, it is not covering every aspect of our life and we need to take the prophets as examples
and we want to add extra bits to it like Hadith.
that is your twisting by saying ?WE NEED TO ADD TO IT?, why you classify it as such?, did we add to it anything or the prophet elaborated on it in human words as being directed by Allah? and yet not included in the book to be classified as Hikmah being added to it so I wonder why you say that, is anything you learn in life that is wise and not included in the Quran will be considered an addition to the Quran?
I think, anyway for me, that going back to basics and unlearning all that poison I learnt from Hadith in the past 20 years, then implement what is in Quran from fresh is a better attitude...
Salam Bros
NobleGlad I don?t have that poison because when the haditn was introduced to me I realized from day one that I have to filter the non sense out of it using my own mind then hold the rest as mere teaching from a great man and this happened years and years ago
Salam
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The Qur'an says to follow Muhammad's sunnah, I'm curious to understand this movement of GOD ALONE, can someone help me out?
As Salaamu Alaykum Salah ad din
I believe my new link will directly answer your question exposing the false hadiyth
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/hadiythexposed.htm
Salaam
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Peace Bro ahmed
We are deadlocked again.
It is ok, I do not mind, we live in a free society
Salat and Sawm have nothing to do with Hadith.
I do not complain that Hadith about the Prophet have reached us. It is great to get some insight onto how the Prophet met some of the challenges he faced in his time.
I do believe however that it was not his intention that they would reach us.
Some of the worst fitnahs we are having are because of these hadiths... Many times because we try to apply them out of the context in which the Prophet dealt with issues in his time.
Now we have our time, and we need to find out how to best deal with the issues that face us. Not doing that is really criminal and takes away from us the ability to respond to the very sophisticated challenges and threats of this era.
The Al-Quran is the unifying source, and I now realise it since I am understanding it better.
You are making a big mistake in your views, but you are free to do so...
I can make up Hadith myself that do not contradict the Al Quran, not contradicting the Al Quran is not enough a criterion.
It is easy to write about views and concepts with a cup of tea, in a warm cosy place, while people are suffering in the third world because of this type of ignorance currently the muslims are advocating.
Salam
Noble
PS I pray five salats a day, but am open to another number, and am currently looking into the evidence... -
Many thanks Adley, peace
Sorry al Quraisyi, thanks adley
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Peace Bro ahmed
We are deadlocked again.Peace mate
to be honest, I'm not sure what we are deadlocked on, I thought of you as one of those Muslims who use their minds to filter the hadith, not to disregard it regardlless?
It is ok, I do not mind, we live in a free society
so if we live in the middle east we will have a problem?
Salat and Sawm have nothing to do with Hadith.
being as compulsory yes, but regarding how to perform it, of course it has everything to do with the prophet recorded hadith
can you please tell me how we can start fasting by identifyng the white Khait "Thread" from the black thread at the dawn time?, thanks
I do not complain that Hadith about the Prophet have reached us. It is great to get some insight onto how the Prophet met some of the challenges he faced in his time.
that is what I thought of you
what is your problem then?
I do believe however that it was not his intention that they would reach us.
intention of Mohammad?
if so, then what is the relevence exactly that it was or was not?
He never prohibited the hadith about him indeed, he only prohibited to write a book and hold it as the Quran, if later on, after his death they documented what they heard of him then what is wrong with that? there are many Muslims who hold the hadith as mere teachings and they follow what is being qualfied by the Quran
Some of the worst fitnahs we are having are because of these hadiths...
I agree, but to take a stand of totally writing it off is non reasonable act according to 4113, 2151 and 1664
Many times because we try to apply them out of the context in which the Prophet dealt with issues in his time.
I can't see any problem in applying any hadith that can be qualified by the quran and the common sense
Now we have our time, and we need to find out how to best deal with the issues that face us.
that is one of the main things that I'm campaigninig for, we need to redo what they have done 250 years after the prophet death which is to compile the hadith to avoid the fitnah, now we have 1250 years of experience and we can deal with this serious matter far better and far smartly
Not doing that is really criminal and takes away from us the ability to respond to the very sophisticated challenges and threats of this era.
not sure what you mean bro?
The Al-Quran is the unifying source, and I now realise it since I am understanding it better.
of course it is, but I'm sure many things were delibertly for the prophet to explain it, I believe it is all part of the test to believe in the prophet.
You are making a big mistake in your views, but you are free to do so...
ok, and what that mistake is exactly? that I use my mind to filter the hadith then hold it as mere teaching from a great man and the last prophet?
I can make up Hadith myself that do not contradict the Al Quran, not contradicting the Al Quran is not enough a criterion.
great and if you do and it does not contradict the common sense as well, I will hold it as great teaching from a mortal man like you and will even promote it
It is easy to write about views and concepts with a cup of tea, in a warm cosy place, while people are suffering in the third world because of this type of ignorance currently the muslims are advocating.
Salam
Noblesorry again, I'm not sure what you mean
we have many types of muslims, can you be specific please?
PS I pray five salats a day, but am open to another number, and am currently looking into the evidence...
sorry, why you pray 5 times, would not that be shirk if you are following a teaching from the prophet?
and I'm really puzzled by your comment that you are open to change it?, well, so if someone came and convinced you that we should pray 2 times a day, would you do it after being convinced? and in this case wouldn't you be following that man instead of another man who convinced others to pray 5 times a day?
I will give you another example to make a bit puzzly
R K the main founder of the Quran alone followers says there are 5 salats a day and he confirmed it with code 19
many other Quran alone followers say they are 2
others of them say they are 3
and others have totally different concept of the salat
who you think is right?
and do you think we have been doing it wrong "Salat" for 1400 years
Cheers
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Peace Bro Ahmed
You make me smile
From what you are telling me, you are a sunnist, even if you do not want to admit it. I do not mind though because I try not to be extreme in my views and pigeon-hole people into boxes.
From my understanding so far in the Al Quran, it seems the Salat is 3 times a day. I believe the Prophet after shuura made it five times a day. The Prophet in particular in the beginnings of the revelation used to pray far more.
I personally used to pray at one stage for many years the following Fajr, Subh, Shuruk, Dhoha, Sunnata AlDhuhr, Salat Aldhuhr, Sunnata Aldhuhr, Sunnata AlAsr, Salat AlAsr, Sunnata AlMaghrib, Salata Almaghrib, Sunnata Almaghrib, Sunnata AlIsha, Salat AlIsha, Qyiamu Alail, Alshif', Alwitr (over 17 salats)
In the 250 years after the death of Muhammed (I call the 200 years after the death of Ali the years of abomination), many matters were changed, complications coming from new cultures embracing Islam, a lot of influences coming from the Iranians particularly, and from greedy and unprincipled rulers...
The way to measure the years was also changed, (the Month of Ramadhan was not changing backwards every year by ten days). The correct calendar is not pure lunar but lunar solar.
It is very easy to falsify records in the beginning of an empire, especially if you have a weapon such as religion, and a strong army behind you...
There is a lot of work to be done to correct all that...
Otherwise...
Again Mate you are severely mistaken, make amends before it is too late.
I will pray for you...
Salam
Noble -
cheers noble I hoped though that you use the quran to refute back, however I would prefer to leave it at that
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Salaam all
Ahmed wrote
Not sure what Hawdan means but it sound like a nice place in Jannah
I just can't believe it! Never heard of (hawd wadil nil The river Nile basin)?
then he stated the hadith that whoever lies about the prophet will have a secured seat in hell
You have omitted one word (intentionally). You see how important it is? If you omitted it intentionally, it makes you dishonest, if you omitted it unintentionally, you are not that dishonest, but just an error. But who cares if they lie intentionally or unintentionally? The result is the same, whereas their intentions are for God to decide.
The translation is "whoever lied intentionally about the prophet will...."
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Salaam all
Ahmed wrote
Not sure what Hawdan means but it sound like a nice place in Jannah
I just can't believe it! Never heard of (hawd wadil nil The river Nile basin)?
then he stated the hadith that whoever lies about the prophet will have a secured seat in hell
You have omitted one word (intentionally). You see how important it is? If you omitted it intentionally, it makes you dishonest, if you omitted it unintentionally, you are not that dishonest, but just an error. But who cares if they lie intentionally or unintentionally? The result is the same, whereas their intentions are for God to decide.
The translation is "whoever lied intentionally about the prophet will...."
Hi
actually Hawdan means "Basin"
that is why I didn't know what they mean
I guess if themean that it is a river then he would have said it that he have a river in Jannah
Regarding Hawd Wadi Al Nil. we actually never refer to it as such
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Peace all,
The issues raised on this thread have been addressed extensively in the past and there is no sense in anyone repeating old and tired fallacious Sunni arguments. Even Sunnis on other intellectual Islamic forums have started to avoid using Hadiths to prove any point because they have come to realize the cans of worms that relying on Hadiths opens up for them.
The old arguments of Hadith being the "hikma"/wisdom and Hadith giving the details about Sunni rituals Hadith, etc. are based on silent assumptions that Hadith defenders make out of ignorance and out of blindly parrotting the Sunni religious establishment line.
Those silent assumptions are easily exposed if you press any Sunni to provide the Hadiths that give the 2,4,4,3,4 Sunni prayer formula. This is the most basic mechanic of the Sunni ritual and yet they will never be able to give such Hadiths because they simply don't exist. So the entire argument of Hadiths being necessary to know such rituals is an argument made out of ignorance.
The other silent assumption is that Hadiths are the direct words of the messenger. They are not. They are the hearsay that some people such as Bukhari decided to convey to us. They have nothing to do with the messenger except in the minds of naive wishful thinking people. It is ironic that the earlier Hadith collectors knew this very well. Thus, in earlier Hadith collections such as Musnad Abd El Razaq and others, you don't find any Hadith that goes to the prophet. Even in later Hadith collections such as the Muwatta of Malek you find that the vast majority of Hadiths don't have complete Isnad (chains of transmission). In fact, no one is really sure who wrote the Muwattaa or when exactly and there are several versions of it that differ significantly. So people during that time knew very well that Hadiths couldn't be traced to the prophet. It is only in much later Hadith collections such as those of Bukhari that we suddenly start seeing complete Isnads appearing out of nowhere. One would have expected the converse, namely that earlier Hadith collections, which are closer to the fact would have more complete Isnad than later ones. However, it is only in later times that Hadiths and their Isnads became important and demand for perfect Isnads grew and of course the natural law of supply and demand took over and this is what created the supply of perfect Isnads. It is not that people somehow revived the dead and were able to complete the Isnad.
There are many more silent assumptions that Hadith defenders make because of their ignorance of the historical evolution of Hadiths as part of the larger literary movement during the Abbassid era, the content of Hadiths, and the nature of hearsay.
This makes Hadiths completely useless as far as conveying any historical information about the time of the prophet. At best perhaps some Hadiths can be used as an indicator for the kinds of religious discussions going on during the Abbassid era since people brought those Hadiths to support some of their discussions.
Peace,
Ayman