Alcohol .. Last and Final debate
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Peace
As Allah advised you, you should avoid it, which means also avoid the places where it is heavily consumed, such as pubs and bars...
If you are already drinking it, then you need to consider starting reducing it slowly (depending on how much you are taking), until your body does not rely on it anymore.
Alcohol is mainly used as an anti-depressant, and it is true that it makes you euphoric and numb for a while, but then you get used to it, and need more. It also tends to make you depressed after its effect has worn off, so you then need more.
You can just tell your mates that you do not drink it because of health reasons...
Now if you consider still drinking it, you must make sure you control yourself, but I personally will not advise it. There is nothing you can gain from drinking Alcohol.
Allah's help will be with you if you avoid it.
Salam
Noble -
Currently we can no nothing for those who drink alcohol or who produce it, because no Islamic law pervail in the world, unless U and me start to establish Allah's deen into common actions to make ourself live in shirothol mustaqem thru amanu, hajaru and jahadu (QS.9/20)
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Peace all,
Peace Arnold, I just wanted to thank you for changing my thinking in regard to Alcohol; it all makes sense. Also thank you ammarb87 for bringing this subject up again. Though I was not much into drinking (my mouth never liked the taste), I used to drink but very rarely and very little, however, that very little sometimes was enough to just make my head start spinning ;D.
Peace
FJ -
I wonder wether "intoxicant" is really a good translation of the word khamr.
IMHO, "intoxicant" does not fit in .(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
"rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink" makes sense to me, but "rivers of intoxicant, a joy to those who drink" does not.
Peace
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Peace All
I already made my position clear to Arnold re. Alcohol, however it is not an issue worth debating, especially for me as I stopped drinking it.
However we have to be careful not to be like some extreme groups such as the Salafists who will eagerly make someone a kafir if he does drink alcohol or does not wear a beard, etc.
My position is that we have no right of calling someone a kafir if he tells us he is a muslim, no matter what he does...
I understand your issue Arnold with intoxicants due to your history, but you must also respect others' freedom of choice.
Allah has given it to mankind, who are we to stop them?
Besides you cannot force feed the Quran on others, let alone your own interpretations of it, which might again be mistaken (unless you have an ego as big as the Stars!).
Unless you want to become another of those loonies extremists yourself...
Do not exagerate in your faith...
Salam
Noble -
Peace,
Dear Noble, did i ever say a person is a kafir because of drinking? No. You insist that i totaly reject any freedom on this issue, which is pure nonsense, and your psychological analysis is poor and baseless. Because of my history it is exactly the opposite of what you're implying. I understand a person when he still uses intoxicants and tries his best to follow and understand the Quran. The only thing i did was that it cannot be denied intoxicants are approached in a negative term. This is a fact. Also i have shown that "avoid it" can be as serious as "haram". Nothing more and nothing less, these are pure facts, what people do with it is there own personal choice.
To write a post like you have done now, that suggest i become close to look i am almost some extremist or that i force feed any interpretation, is purely ignorant. Nowhere in my post do i force anybody, i have just presented pure facts to remind people to think hard on their decisions. To say i don't respect freedom of choices is pathetic and also hypocrite. As we had our clashes before in discussions where you were applauding the ones who were calling me the kafir. Since then you have changed your attitude and also have become less rigid in your approach to certain issues in the Quran. This i see as positive, and i have learned to respect your quest more. To remind you, i don't believe in a physical hell, a physical punishment, this is also especially formed through my concept of freedom of thinking God has given us, so to think i would not respect other opinions is showing you have no insight at all in my philosophical and theological background why i believe certain things. I don't believe in an eternal and punishing hell because i understand the people who reject certain issues or behave in harmfull ways, and i cannot accept a God who also doesn't see this. That is why i started to look further and found out that the concept of heaven and hell of todays theological world are completly false. I didn't need any twisting of meanings, i only needed certain insights to understand the bigger meanings behind certain verses. I even respect enquirer, more then you ever could, although is may dislike his behavior, he has philosophical questions the traditional approaches can never answer.
I say to you dear Noble, don't exagerate in your posts and think hard before you post something about a person's thinking, as you cannot look behind the internetname, but also you should have known better when looking at my view of Quranic issues. I hope you will learn from this.
Peace
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peace
http//www.goyk.com/video.asp?path=1647
no we dont drink in this mine
http//youtube.com/watch?v=SoXKFkwY-nY&search=drunk%20russiannuff said
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Peace Bro Arnold
You make me smile
Why are you so uptight and serious. Chill down, relax. Can't you take a bit of criticism, even if it is not 100% or 50% or 25% correct or incorrect?.
You are acting as if your life depended on it.
As far as me, I am pretty flexible... even when I was cheering some guys who were criticising you more than I do...
My approach and attitude is to be in the middle ground.
There is no way I can change someone's attitude or belief, but I can change mine...
Yes after some hard thinking I came to realise that no matter what, I have no control over anything whatsoever, but what I can think and do, within life's parameters allowed by Allah, that I have some measure of control over. Therefore, I say what I think is correct, without fear.
Cheers friend
Noble -
Peace,
rather be 'serious' then writing 'incorrect' posts
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Peace all,
I have a general question. If, as an example, alcohol was used for medicinal purposes, and there wasn't much of a choice, would you not use it at all due to it being "avoided"?
I think we all agree here that the term 'forbidden' is much stronger than avoid. But let's, for the sake of argument, put them on the same level.
Pig or dead flesh is said to be forbidden, but at the same time we are told that in certain circumstances we can have it. (2173)
Rejection of God after believing is also one of the worst things one can do, but there is also a clause where if one is forced (for whatever reason), it is permitted as long as in the person's heart is belief.(16106)In cases of idolatory, for example, if the wording "avoid" is used, it is unfair to equate that with drinking alcohol, knowing what is said in other verses about it. Example, 'shirk' is unforgivable, if maintained until death. While on the other hand, as noble pointed out on another thread, there are mentions in quran of not going for salat while intoxicated, or mentions of it being 'consumed' in the afterlife, or even it being used for trade.
On a personal level, I don't drink, never have, God willing never will. I don't see any benefit in it, although God tells us there is SOME benefit but much harm in it (this applies to this day and age also). I wouldn't encourage or advise anyone to drink. In the case of universities, or colleges in America, I'll give you an example, there are several cases where young people have died due to alcohol poisoning or accidents that could have been prevented.
So ammarb87, don't get into drinking... get into studies.
Peace
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Peace Bro Zenje, all
I guess to have been lucky not dying from it then, because I used to consume an awful lot.
This business of avoid has been taken too far in some salafist circles, for instance, when I went into repentance, with a group of brothers, we decided to stop drinking soft drinks because someone convinced us it had trace amounts of alcohol..., also did you know that there is alcohol in any food that uses fermentation, such as brewer's yeast and chocolate...
Personally, I do take tinctures of herbal medicines which contain a high level of alcohol used to extract the active ingredients of the herbs/plants. Many medicines and food stuff use alcohol as a preservative.
I think the bottom line is to avoid being intoxicated by it...
And Arnold comparing alcohol consumption to shirk in the examples he chose to use is plain silly, and that him being so touchy about being criticised as to where he is coming from just means that it was the reason for his stand.
That he does not believe in a physical hell and heaven has nothing to do with this, just him being apologetic in a silly way...
Salam Bros
Noble -
Peace all,
I have a general question. If, as an example, alcohol was used for medicinal purposes, and there wasn't much of a choice, would you not use it at all due to it being "avoided"?
I think we all agree here that the term 'forbidden' is much stronger than avoid. But let's, for the sake of argument, put them on the same level.
Pig or dead flesh is said to be forbidden, but at the same time we are told that in certain circumstances we can have it. (2173)
Rejection of God after believing is also one of the worst things one can do, but there is also a clause where if one is forced (for whatever reason), it is permitted as long as in the person's heart is belief.(16106)In cases of idolatory, for example, if the wording "avoid" is used, it is unfair to equate that with drinking alcohol, knowing what is said in other verses about it. Example, 'shirk' is unforgivable, if maintained until death. While on the other hand, as noble pointed out on another thread, there are mentions in quran of not going for salat while intoxicated, or mentions of it being 'consumed' in the afterlife, or even it being used for trade.
On a personal level, I don't drink, never have, God willing never will. I don't see any benefit in it, although God tells us there is SOME benefit but much harm in it (this applies to this day and age also). I wouldn't encourage or advise anyone to drink. In the case of universities, or colleges in America, I'll give you an example, there are several cases where young people have died due to alcohol poisoning or accidents that could have been prevented.
So ammarb87, don't get into drinking... get into studies.
Peace
Very well put brother
I was not as fortunate as you have been by not touching alcohol, i used to and in fact drinking it was one of the reason not to l,ike it becauuse I found absolutely nothing good in it rather a depresssent drug
cheers
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Peace Ahmed
Well since I stopped heavy drinking, then a few years later drinking, my health has become much better. The benefits of alcohol as Allah warned us are dwarfed by the dangers.
What annoyed me is that Arnold used shirk and other kaba'ir examples to justify his views.
For me that Allah tells me avoid is enough, but also because my faith is now stronger, because for a few years I was drinking while practicing my faith.
Allah is merciful and cases like mine were catered for with the ayat that said do not approach salat while intoxicated...
It is very relevant that Allah bothered to say so, it is because He knows (and now medicine knows) that stopping an addiction is not easy and takes time...
So for those who have never touched alcohol as a drink before, it is advised that they carry on keeping away from it.
On a side note, when you are a freshman at university, there is also a pressure to have a girl friend, so will one do that just because of the peer pressure?, same with drugs, etc...
Take care Bro
Noble -
Peace Ahmed
Well since I stopped heavy drinking, then a few years later drinking, my health has become much better. The benefits of alcohol as Allah warned us are dwarfed by the dangers.
What annoyed my is that Arnold used shirk and other kaba'ir examples to justify his views.
For me that Allah tells me avoid is enough, but also because my faith is now stronger, because for a few years I was drinking while practicing my faith.
Allah is merciful and cases like mine were catered for with the ayat that said do not approach salat while intoxicated...
It is very relevant that Allah bothered to say so, it is because He knows (and now medicine knows) that stopping an addiction is not easy and takes time...
So for those who have never touched alcohol as a drink before, it is advised that they carry on keeping away from it.
On a side note, when you are a freshman at university, there is also a pressure to have a girl friend, so will one do that just because of the peer pressure?, same with drugs, etc...
Take care Bro
NoblePeace bro, I actually believe that the benefit of alcohol mentioned in the Quran is anything but to drink it,
Take care bro