Alcohol .. Last and Final debate
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Peace Bro Arnold
You make me smile
Why are you so uptight and serious. Chill down, relax. Can't you take a bit of criticism, even if it is not 100% or 50% or 25% correct or incorrect?.
You are acting as if your life depended on it.
As far as me, I am pretty flexible... even when I was cheering some guys who were criticising you more than I do...
My approach and attitude is to be in the middle ground.
There is no way I can change someone's attitude or belief, but I can change mine...
Yes after some hard thinking I came to realise that no matter what, I have no control over anything whatsoever, but what I can think and do, within life's parameters allowed by Allah, that I have some measure of control over. Therefore, I say what I think is correct, without fear.
Cheers friend
Noble -
Peace,
rather be 'serious' then writing 'incorrect' posts
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Peace all,
I have a general question. If, as an example, alcohol was used for medicinal purposes, and there wasn't much of a choice, would you not use it at all due to it being "avoided"?
I think we all agree here that the term 'forbidden' is much stronger than avoid. But let's, for the sake of argument, put them on the same level.
Pig or dead flesh is said to be forbidden, but at the same time we are told that in certain circumstances we can have it. (2173)
Rejection of God after believing is also one of the worst things one can do, but there is also a clause where if one is forced (for whatever reason), it is permitted as long as in the person's heart is belief.(16106)In cases of idolatory, for example, if the wording "avoid" is used, it is unfair to equate that with drinking alcohol, knowing what is said in other verses about it. Example, 'shirk' is unforgivable, if maintained until death. While on the other hand, as noble pointed out on another thread, there are mentions in quran of not going for salat while intoxicated, or mentions of it being 'consumed' in the afterlife, or even it being used for trade.
On a personal level, I don't drink, never have, God willing never will. I don't see any benefit in it, although God tells us there is SOME benefit but much harm in it (this applies to this day and age also). I wouldn't encourage or advise anyone to drink. In the case of universities, or colleges in America, I'll give you an example, there are several cases where young people have died due to alcohol poisoning or accidents that could have been prevented.
So ammarb87, don't get into drinking... get into studies.
Peace
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Peace Bro Zenje, all
I guess to have been lucky not dying from it then, because I used to consume an awful lot.
This business of avoid has been taken too far in some salafist circles, for instance, when I went into repentance, with a group of brothers, we decided to stop drinking soft drinks because someone convinced us it had trace amounts of alcohol..., also did you know that there is alcohol in any food that uses fermentation, such as brewer's yeast and chocolate...
Personally, I do take tinctures of herbal medicines which contain a high level of alcohol used to extract the active ingredients of the herbs/plants. Many medicines and food stuff use alcohol as a preservative.
I think the bottom line is to avoid being intoxicated by it...
And Arnold comparing alcohol consumption to shirk in the examples he chose to use is plain silly, and that him being so touchy about being criticised as to where he is coming from just means that it was the reason for his stand.
That he does not believe in a physical hell and heaven has nothing to do with this, just him being apologetic in a silly way...
Salam Bros
Noble -
Peace all,
I have a general question. If, as an example, alcohol was used for medicinal purposes, and there wasn't much of a choice, would you not use it at all due to it being "avoided"?
I think we all agree here that the term 'forbidden' is much stronger than avoid. But let's, for the sake of argument, put them on the same level.
Pig or dead flesh is said to be forbidden, but at the same time we are told that in certain circumstances we can have it. (2173)
Rejection of God after believing is also one of the worst things one can do, but there is also a clause where if one is forced (for whatever reason), it is permitted as long as in the person's heart is belief.(16106)In cases of idolatory, for example, if the wording "avoid" is used, it is unfair to equate that with drinking alcohol, knowing what is said in other verses about it. Example, 'shirk' is unforgivable, if maintained until death. While on the other hand, as noble pointed out on another thread, there are mentions in quran of not going for salat while intoxicated, or mentions of it being 'consumed' in the afterlife, or even it being used for trade.
On a personal level, I don't drink, never have, God willing never will. I don't see any benefit in it, although God tells us there is SOME benefit but much harm in it (this applies to this day and age also). I wouldn't encourage or advise anyone to drink. In the case of universities, or colleges in America, I'll give you an example, there are several cases where young people have died due to alcohol poisoning or accidents that could have been prevented.
So ammarb87, don't get into drinking... get into studies.
Peace
Very well put brother
I was not as fortunate as you have been by not touching alcohol, i used to and in fact drinking it was one of the reason not to l,ike it becauuse I found absolutely nothing good in it rather a depresssent drug
cheers
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Peace Ahmed
Well since I stopped heavy drinking, then a few years later drinking, my health has become much better. The benefits of alcohol as Allah warned us are dwarfed by the dangers.
What annoyed me is that Arnold used shirk and other kaba'ir examples to justify his views.
For me that Allah tells me avoid is enough, but also because my faith is now stronger, because for a few years I was drinking while practicing my faith.
Allah is merciful and cases like mine were catered for with the ayat that said do not approach salat while intoxicated...
It is very relevant that Allah bothered to say so, it is because He knows (and now medicine knows) that stopping an addiction is not easy and takes time...
So for those who have never touched alcohol as a drink before, it is advised that they carry on keeping away from it.
On a side note, when you are a freshman at university, there is also a pressure to have a girl friend, so will one do that just because of the peer pressure?, same with drugs, etc...
Take care Bro
Noble -
Peace Ahmed
Well since I stopped heavy drinking, then a few years later drinking, my health has become much better. The benefits of alcohol as Allah warned us are dwarfed by the dangers.
What annoyed my is that Arnold used shirk and other kaba'ir examples to justify his views.
For me that Allah tells me avoid is enough, but also because my faith is now stronger, because for a few years I was drinking while practicing my faith.
Allah is merciful and cases like mine were catered for with the ayat that said do not approach salat while intoxicated...
It is very relevant that Allah bothered to say so, it is because He knows (and now medicine knows) that stopping an addiction is not easy and takes time...
So for those who have never touched alcohol as a drink before, it is advised that they carry on keeping away from it.
On a side note, when you are a freshman at university, there is also a pressure to have a girl friend, so will one do that just because of the peer pressure?, same with drugs, etc...
Take care Bro
NoblePeace bro, I actually believe that the benefit of alcohol mentioned in the Quran is anything but to drink it,
Take care bro
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I have a general question. If, as an example, alcohol was used for medicinal purposes, and there wasn't much of a choice, would you not use it at all due to it being "avoided"?
Peace zenje,
You clearly have missed the whole idea. Intoxicants for medical use are clearly allowed in my view
- They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say ?In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit.? And they ask you how much are they to give, Say ?The excess.? It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
Any medical person would say the same thing, that intoxicants are a benefit for medical treatment, but will also clearly say it harms the body severly. That is why they will always try to avoid as much as possible. And i don't refer to the simple aneastisia that can numb a small part of the body through injection, i'm talking about narcoses and heavy intoxicants that numb people or put them under narcoses. Narcoses can kill people, and is thus avoided as much as possible.
You have to understand the purpose behind the negative advice. I don't believe in the 'punishing' God, i believe it has a clear effect on the progress of the Nafs/Self/Soul and thus on society as a whole. The Quran is only to show the best way to progress of your soul and society. So to neglect the advice has a direct effect on your soul, not that God will 'punish' you later on for doing it. It is about harming your progress and so must be approached as such. Pigmeat is only harmfull after long consumption period, not occasionaly consumption. So a sometimes, only when there is no other way, it is of course no harm in it. It is about the psychological approach, that how important is your progress of your soul to you?
No Noble, you still don't get it, and it almost shows you don't want to get it. Why? Because you don't understand the purpose of advice in the Quran. You think shirk is not allowed because God is jealous? NO. It is because it will deter you from progressing your nafs. I never compared intoxicants with shirk, i showed the same words were used, i never said the subjects were the same. I only showed that 'avoid it' has enough power to it as the word 'haram'. And that 'avoid it' was used as a serious negative advice. This is a fact. You have totaly misunderstood it.
A forbiddance or negative advice is there to show the things that will cause stagnation of your nafs, shirk will create illusions and thus you cannot make full use of Reality. As for the 'criticism', i responded to your post as it was nonsense and personal and not criticism, i would love some REAL criticism using Quranic verses and reason on the subject of intoxicants, and not personal comments.
Peace
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Arnold, you again keep on pushing through your philosophical understanding of Al Quran which is very dubious at best...
Stop using bubble gum philosophy to explain the intentions of Allah, it is well beyond me and you...
I think by misleading people that there is no physical hell, this is far more dangerous than them drinking or not drinking alcohol...
Sober up dude, some people might be intoxicated with liquor, you are intoxicated with the "self righteous" syndrome!
Peace out -
Arnold, you again keep on pushing through your philosophical understanding of Al Quran which is very dubious at best...
Stop using bubble gum philosophy to explain the intentions of Allah, it is well beyond me and you...
I think by misleading people that there is no physical hell, this is far more dangerous than them drinking or not drinking alcohol...
Sober up dude, some people might be intoxicated with liquor, you are intoxicated with the "self righteous" syndrome!
Peace outPeace,
Instead of simple rejection, you can also show me where i'm wrong on that the Quran is to show us what will cause harm to our soul and what not? Because this stands apart from my approach to heaven and hell, which again you cannot see. You focus on the wrong things in the conversation. I think you should listen to your own advice a bit more....
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Peace
OK Arnold, I will make an exception.
I hope you believe in common sense, and the way human psychology works.
If you tell people that Hell is not physical and that they will not stay there forever being barbecued, it is natural, unless you come from Mars, to not take the threat seriously and therefore do what they want.
It is fear of the consequences that stop people from doing wrong.
Not everybody has this ethereal pristine at the core good soul you keep on rambling about refer Al Quran "...inna khalaqna al insana fi ahsani taqweem thumma radadnahu asfala safilleen..."
Open up your eyes while you are above the ground bro... -
Peace
OK Arnold, I will make an exception.
I hope you believe in common sense, and the way human psychology works.
If you tell people that Hell is not physical and that they will not stay there forever being barbecued, it is natural, unless you come from Mars, to not take the threat seriously and therefore do what they want.
It is fear of the consequences that stop people from doing wrong.
Not everybody has this ethereal pristine at the core good soul you keep on rambling about refer Al Quran "...inna khalaqna al insana fi ahsani taqweem thumma radadnahu asfala safillen..."Peace,
This is off-topic Noble. We can discuss in the appriotate thread. But here is a small answer, that jahannam is not physical doesn't mean it is a joy. The Quran is simple on this, or you choose to develop your soul, or you will end up in stagnation which will be a Hell. Most people believe they can get away with things as God will 'forgive' them on the day of judgement as long they believe in Him alone and pray on time. Hell doesn't stop people either from doing wrong deeds as they always believe in certain escapegoats. It doesn't work like that. Yaumwedeen is the Constant working Law of Judgement and Order, and so every deed will have direct and indirect concequences on your soul. You cannot escape it. It has a direct effect on your soul. So i 100% agree with you that the consequences is what stops people doing from wrong, only the effect of the wrong i see different then you. You think that my version will cause no feeling of regret on the person, and you're so wrong on this. The stagnation of the soul will be felt as a burning sensation in this life, and especially will be experienced as a pain in the Next life when confronted with the Truth of this Reality.
I don't believe in that everybody has a good soul. I believe everybody can create it, big difference. I believe there is a lot of mistaken ideas about my approach. But we can discuss this in another thread if there is an urge too.
As to go back on the topic, do you see the difference between me showing the use of 'avoiding' and comparing shirk with taking intoxicants? As i only showed that 'avoiding' is an as serious negative term as 'haram' can be. I did not say shirk is the same as taking intoxicants.
You have confused the two, and i know you take medicines for a serious reason, but you sometimes are a good example of why not taking them..
(i hope you can take a joke as i mean no disrespect to your situation)
Peace
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Peace Arnold
Let us yet again agree to disagree...
Do not worry about jokes, I love jokes, so far that is as they do not lead me to physical hell, I cannot even stand being burnt by a match stick
Take care, I really wish you would not get barbecued brickwall
Noble out -
Peace AY and all,
I think our understandings, in regard to alcohol, are not very different. handshake No one here, atleast in their right minds, is advocating the drinking or abuse of alcohol, and no one is saying that its forbidden to the point that you can't use it at all even for medicinal purposes. It is the grey area in between that we have a little difference here and there. As long as that's clear for us and others to see.
A good friend of mine who gave up drinking (2 years sober now) in his 40s, tells me the only thing he regrets is not having done it earlier. This is after his girlfriend and his drinking friends all deserted him. He thank's God how much better his life has become. So in regard to drinking as a social medium, it only goes to show who your real friends are.
peace