Muhammad's Sunnah
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Peace all,
The issues raised on this thread have been addressed extensively in the past and there is no sense in anyone repeating old and tired fallacious Sunni arguments. Even Sunnis on other intellectual Islamic forums have started to avoid using Hadiths to prove any point because they have come to realize the cans of worms that relying on Hadiths opens up for them.
The old arguments of Hadith being the "hikma"/wisdom and Hadith giving the details about Sunni rituals Hadith, etc. are based on silent assumptions that Hadith defenders make out of ignorance and out of blindly parrotting the Sunni religious establishment line.
Those silent assumptions are easily exposed if you press any Sunni to provide the Hadiths that give the 2,4,4,3,4 Sunni prayer formula. This is the most basic mechanic of the Sunni ritual and yet they will never be able to give such Hadiths because they simply don't exist. So the entire argument of Hadiths being necessary to know such rituals is an argument made out of ignorance.
The other silent assumption is that Hadiths are the direct words of the messenger. They are not. They are the hearsay that some people such as Bukhari decided to convey to us. They have nothing to do with the messenger except in the minds of naive wishful thinking people. It is ironic that the earlier Hadith collectors knew this very well. Thus, in earlier Hadith collections such as Musnad Abd El Razaq and others, you don't find any Hadith that goes to the prophet. Even in later Hadith collections such as the Muwatta of Malek you find that the vast majority of Hadiths don't have complete Isnad (chains of transmission). In fact, no one is really sure who wrote the Muwattaa or when exactly and there are several versions of it that differ significantly. So people during that time knew very well that Hadiths couldn't be traced to the prophet. It is only in much later Hadith collections such as those of Bukhari that we suddenly start seeing complete Isnads appearing out of nowhere. One would have expected the converse, namely that earlier Hadith collections, which are closer to the fact would have more complete Isnad than later ones. However, it is only in later times that Hadiths and their Isnads became important and demand for perfect Isnads grew and of course the natural law of supply and demand took over and this is what created the supply of perfect Isnads. It is not that people somehow revived the dead and were able to complete the Isnad.
There are many more silent assumptions that Hadith defenders make because of their ignorance of the historical evolution of Hadiths as part of the larger literary movement during the Abbassid era, the content of Hadiths, and the nature of hearsay.
This makes Hadiths completely useless as far as conveying any historical information about the time of the prophet. At best perhaps some Hadiths can be used as an indicator for the kinds of religious discussions going on during the Abbassid era since people brought those Hadiths to support some of their discussions.
Peace,
Ayman
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peace,
in order for a book to be fully detailed it does not need another book to add extra detail (or guidance),
the Promise of God Almighty to protect the Quran eliminted an arguament of conjecture against the book, thus we are bluntly announced not to follow any bit of conjecture.
does the hadiths have that promise on it?
was there a division of faith due to hadiths?
is there instructional hadiths that are recognized by one group but not recognized by the other?
when certain hadiths were declared authentic; who declared it's authenticity? was a messenger of God present during this authenticating process? was there even a man from the time of the last prophet present during this authenticating period? does any man thats not a prophet of God have authority to authenticate God's guidance?with the exeption of Mohammed (may peace be upon him) warners warned there own nation, like Jesus(peace be upon him) was sent to the children of Israel, Lot to the people of Sodom and Gomorra and so on..... Mohammed (peace be upon him) the last prophet of God through God's mercy on us delivered an incorruptable (through Gods protection and promise) book of revelation (the Quran) thats meant for all mankind.
the Quran had God Willed could have came down all in one instance, but it came down gradually (that is the way God Willed). what we sometimes forget is that the earliest believers were progressively recieving guidance over many years stage by stage,
the people addressed in this verse were the then present day Meccans
062.002
SHAKIR He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,"teaches them the Book" is progressive, becuase the whole book has'nt all been sent to them yet,
the allusion of future revelation / guidance not yet reveiled to them may be the Wisdom,"teaches you that which ye knew not" from 2151
may be the knowledge of knowing you were in clear error before.God knows best.
peace, ex
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Peace Ayman
It is a very hard thing for people to let go of their old paradigm, of any faith or creed, be it a Christian or a sunni/shia moving to true monotheism. But letting go of Hadith is a must for advancement.
I actually can see in myself how brainwashed I was, and it takes great effort and focus to stay tuned with the message in The Quran on its own.
It is extraordinary how it is hard to just focus on Allah alone without any other preconceived filters. This is the nature of how great this test is...
Take care Bro
Noble out -
Peace be upon you
On the argument of "He teaches you what you don't know" I believe the following verses could be important
11 49 Yusuf Ali
Such are some of the stories of the Unseen which We have revealed unto thee before this neither thou nor thy People knew them. So persevere patiently for the End is for those who are righteous.
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Peace,
Yes warner is already gave all examples in this post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6597.msg101609#msg101609
The Quran explains itself...
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Peace be upon you
On the argument of "He teaches you what you don't know" I believe the following verses could be important
11 49 Yusuf Ali
Such are some of the stories of the Unseen which We have revealed unto thee before this neither thou nor thy People knew them. So persevere patiently for the End is for those who are righteous.
Peace bro
So what you are saying that "He teaches you what you don't know" means the stories of the unseen mentioned in the Quran, hmmm, well this doesn't add up acccording to the Quran alone idology for the following reasons
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the verb is "Teaches" and not "Recites", i.e these teachings should be the prophet elaborations on those verses, i.e. it is called the Hadith, therefore your understanding means that you have to accept the hadith
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If he is teaching a verse in the Quran then this should be covered under "Wa Yuallimakum Al Kitab", i,e, "and teaches you the Book", so why you want to double it up under "He teaches you what you don't know"?
See why I said it does not add up
Salam
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Peace,
- O you who believe, if you borrow debt for a future period, then you shall record it. And let a scribe of justice record it for you; and let not the scribe refuse to record as God has taught him. Let him record and let the person who is borrowing dictate to him, and let him be aware of God, and let him not reduce from it anything. If the one who is borrowing is immature or weak or he cannot dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate with justice; and bring two witnesses from amongst your men; if they are not two men, then a man and two women from whom you will accept their testimony, so that if one of them becomes occupied, then the one can recall the other. And let the witnesses not refuse to come if they are called. And do not fail to record it no matter how small or large until its maturity. That is more just with God and better for the testimony, and better that you do not have doubts; except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no sin upon you if you do not record it. And have evidence if you trade. No scribe shall be harmed nor any witness; for if you do so then it is vileness on your part, and be aware of God and God teaches you and God is aware of all things.
What did God teach us here? Clearly what was explained in this verse about writing a debt.
- ?Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the Scripture and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?
And as given before the wisdom is inside the Quran
"This is of what your Sustainer has revealed to you of ?Hikmah? (wisdom), and do not associate any other god with Allah lest you should be thrown into hell, blamed, cast away." (1739)
And what is the widom that was revealed in 1719? Let's take a look
- And do not come near the orphan?s money, except for that which is best, until he reaches maturity. And fulfill your oath, for the oath brings responsibility.
- And give full measure when you deal, and weigh with a balance that is straight. That is good and better in the end.
- And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
- And do not walk in the land arrogantly, for you will not penetrate the Earth, nor will you reach the mountains in height.
- All of this is bad, and disliked by your Lord.
And more
"There have already come to them Recitals wherein there is (enough) to check (them). Mature wisdom <Hikmat ul baaligha> but (the preaching of) Warners profits them not." (544-5)
"And bear in mind that which is recited in your houses of the revelations of Allah and wisdom. Lo! Allah is Subtile, Aware." (3334)
"Ya Seen. I swear by the Quran full of wisdom. Most surely you are one of the messengers." (361-3)
"Alif Lam Mim. These are verses of the Book of Wisdom. A guidance and a mercy for the doers of goodness," (311-3)
So this proofs God teaches us the Unseen and the Wisdom that are IN the Quran.
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Peace Brother Ahmed
Since the verse 1149 has the word wahi/inspire/revelation
will it not qualify for both teaching and reciting?Or are you of the view that prophet was inspired with
messages other than the Quraan.Peace bro
Actually the wahi in verse 1149 is only realting to the story mentioned just before it which is the story of Noah, the reason the wahi is specific to that is the word "Tilka" which is called in arabic grammar "Ism Ishara", sort of "a pointing noun" and it is pointing to the story of Noah, therefore in 1149 the wahi mentioned is regarding "Teaching the prophet Al kitab" which includes many stories of Al Ghayab like the story of Noah that was just mentioned, sure Mohammad elaborated on it in the Hadith with things that were not mentioned in the story, in fact the prophet elaborated a lot regarding all the other prophets with things that were never mentioned in the Quran, those things will be classified under what he didn't and we don't know and has nothing to do with the Book because it is not in the book from the first place, what Mohammad learnt that he didn't know nor the people knew can't be the stories of the Ghayb alone, rather many other things like Salat for example, I believe Allah delibertly left some issues for the prophet to explain to us after informing him with it to test us and see who is really following the last prophet, this is obvious after reading the many times Allah told us to obey Him and His messneger, 100% it is a test for all of us,
Yes I do believe 100% that Allah infomed the prophet with things that are not in the Quran, He clearly told us that in a very general statement that was not specific to the stories of the Ghaib
I guess a good example of those sort of things can be found in sura 66
Cheers
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Yes I do believe 100% that Allah infomed the prophet with things that are not in the Quran, He clearly told us that in a very general statement that was not specific to the stories of the Ghaib
that may be true, but those informations not in the Quran never got the protection of God, thus those informations are conjecturous, and we all know what God tells us about following conjecture.
peace, ex
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Peace Ahmed
Since the most common/important argument we have for the need of hadeeth is with regard to Quraan not being fully detailed about salat, can you kindly explain which hadeeth do we use to derive at 5 times Salat with 2,4,4,3,4 Rakahs and the 17 ( I am not certain whether this is more or less according to each persons belief) compulsory requirements , postures and recitals.
Also please be good enough to explain which hadeeth can we use to support any requirements not covered within compulsory acts in salat, but you may think important for salat to be accepted.
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Yes I do believe 100% that Allah infomed the prophet with things that are not in the Quran, He clearly told us that in a very general statement that was not specific to the stories of the Ghaib
that may be true, but those informations not in the Quran never got the protection of God, thus those informations are conjecturous, and we all know what God tells us about following conjecture.
peace, ex
Salam
what you are saying that every thing that is not in the Quran or not said by our God is conjecture, i.e. the whole world is fake or at least it is fake unless proven otherwise, this in effect means that I have to deploy my brain (if I have any) to find out if it is conjecture or not, in fact Allah described those who are guided, are those who listen the follow what make sense because the have brains
Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding.
(1
-> See the compelling Quran evidence that those who are guided are ? Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it?, sure they are guided, ?those are they whom Allah has guided?, and sure those are the ones who have BRAINS ?Ulu Al Al Albab? ? and those it is who are the men of understanding.?
When Allah told us to avoid conjectures, HE NEVER TOLD US TO AVOID ALL THE CONJECTURES, rather MOST OF THE CONJECTURES, I.E, accepting minimum conjectures is allowed by Allah as long as there is a logical and irrefutable reason to consider that conjecture
O you who believe! avoid most of conjectures, for surely suspicion in some cases is a sin, and do not spy nor let some of you backbite others. Does one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? But you abhor it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.
(12)
-> See the advice from Allah to the believers ? ?, i.e. ? O you who believe! avoid most of conjectures?, if we should avoid ALL the conjectures then it should be stated like this ? ?, i.e. ? O you who believe! avoid conjectures?
Salam
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Peace Ahmed
Since the most common/important argument we have for the need of hadeeth is with regard to Quraan not being fully detailed about salat, can you kindly explain which hadeeth do we use to derive at 5 times Salat with 2,4,4,3,4 Rakahs and the 17 ( I am not certain whether this is more or less according to each persons belief) compulsory requirements , postures and recitals.
Also please be good enough to explain which hadeeth can we use to support any requirements not covered within compulsory acts in salat, but you may think important for salat to be accepted.
Peace bro
I'm sorry bro I don't provide hadith to teach others the religion, this is up to them on what they want to follow through whatever source of info, I can direct you to some hadith web sites that I use and you can take it from there
this is not about being kind, it is about being logical, I mean you can read the hadith then use your own brain and logic you can filter it and learn from it whatever you see best according to 3918
i only use the Quran to teach others my religion, while I'm a hadith beliver i only believe in very limited number of hadith regarding compulsory practices, other hadiths for me are nothing more than teachings and wisdom from a great man, therefore I'm not that hadith advocate nor that I studied the hadith fully, it was never my concern nor my inetension really, i only take from it what I just need and because it is my need I can't expect that my need is like the others needs, we agree trhough that the Quran is not detailing the Salat so I chose to follow what i knew about the prophet when he performed salat nothing more nothing less, I'm using him as an example to worship Allah and I believe the believers should do the same if they can
Salam
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Yes I do believe 100% that Allah infomed the prophet with things that are not in the Quran, He clearly told us that in a very general statement that was not specific to the stories of the Ghaib
that may be true, but those informations not in the Quran never got the protection of God, thus those informations are conjecturous, and we all know what God tells us about following conjecture.
peace, ex
Salam
what you are saying that every thing that is not in the Quran or not said by our God is conjecture, i.e. the whole world is fake or at least it is fake unless proven otherwise, this in effect means that I have to deploy my brain (if I have any) to find out if it is conjecture or not, in fact Allah described those who are guided, are those who listen the follow what make sense because the have brains
Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding.
(1
-> See the compelling Quran evidence that those who are guided are ? Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it?, sure they are guided, ?those are they whom Allah has guided?, and sure those are the ones who have BRAINS ?Ulu Al Al Albab? ? and those it is who are the men of understanding.?
When Allah told us to avoid conjectures, HE NEVER TOLD US TO AVOID ALL THE CONJECTURES, rather MOST OF THE CONJECTURES, I.E, accepting minimum conjectures is allowed by Allah as long as there is a logical and irrefutable reason to consider that conjecture
O you who believe! avoid most of conjectures, for surely suspicion in some cases is a sin, and do not spy nor let some of you backbite others. Does one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? But you abhor it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.
(12)
-> See the advice from Allah to the believers ? ?, i.e. ? O you who believe! avoid most of conjectures?, if we should avoid ALL the conjectures then it should be stated like this ? ?, i.e. ? O you who believe! avoid conjectures?
Salam
about 4912, wouldn't you say that verse is speaking to the believers for other wordly matters besides faith?
..."avoid most of conjectures"...
conjectures overall? conjecture in faith? or conjectures in everyday life? so lets read on...."suspicion in some cases is a sin"...
so suspicion is and is not allowed it depends on each and every case,...."do not spy nor let some of you backbite others"...
from this you can easily come to the understanding that the conjecture that is being spoken of might lead to "spying" and "backbiting others" in which God tells us not to.
maybe we should just be aware of the conjecture at hand in each case? sometimes suspicion is a sin, but acting offencive becuase of it is really bad, the verse is stating worldly conjecture not conjecture in faith.
but maybe my interpretation of the verse you find conjecturous and thus you should pay no heed. ???also A B earlier on in this thread you were saying that the wisdom(al hikmah) is diferent then the Quran and "He teaches you what you don't know" is all diferent right?
please respond.
peace, ex
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Peace Bros
Even if I am pretty neutral about the Hadith issue, apart from the fact that I believe they should not be used for legislation in Shariaa as in the case of Hudud this is highly dangerous (like rajm, etc)...
There is a Hadith that tells the Prophet saying to his companions that our communities (ie the ones in the far off future after he (pbuh) died) are his brothers because we believed in him without having him present or seen him, and therefore Allah in his appreciation will reward us even if we only practice 10% of the deen that the companions were practicing...On another more personal note, the way I learnt Salat had nothing to do with hadeeth, I was taught Salat by a sunni friend, and for me to feel comfortable about it was to compare the way they are performing it in sunni mosques, and I took it from there really.
I never looked for hadith to perform Salat, however, there are several books that teach how to perform it.
Also the Quran mentions about it and it does not contradict the breakdown of it, ie standing, ruku'u, sujud, etc
Can't we just accept that Salat method is communicated by learning like language? Since it is such a central piece to the believers, I think this makes sense.
As a result, even the Hadith will not bother to communicate it as they do not bother to communicate Arabic vocabulary and Grammar...
Salam
Noble -
Peace noble n all,
I never looked for hadith to perform Salat, however, there are several books that teach how to perform it.
You may be surprised to note, not many people have looked for hadith to perform the ritual prayers either. And I'm talking the sunnis. Infact the majority don't read any of the books, at the most recite verses from quran without learning the meanings.Can't we just accept that Salat method is communicated by learning like language?
Personally I cannot accept that method. But it's interesting that you use 'language' as a metaphor in this example. Languages change with time and some languages die completely. Think about it. On a side note, your questions sounds like - can't we all just get along?Check this link out and tell me what you think of it - Chinese Whispers
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Peace Zenje
I am aware of chinese whispers
Chinese whispers only apply to word of mouth, not to physical routines, so my using language as an example was incorrect...What I find very baffling is that Salat being so central to the Faith, why then were not the way to perform it recorded?
Surely if something is so important, it ought to be recorded in minute details...Cool dude, yes we should get along )
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Peace noble.
Chinese whispers only apply to word of mouth, not to physical routines,...
I guess you didn't read the entire thread then.What I find very baffling is that Salat being so central to the Faith, why then were not the way to perform it recorded?
Surely if something is so important, it ought to be recorded in minute details...
Good questions! ) Now keep going in that direction... you may find a surprising solution, inshaAllah. -
O you who believe! avoid most of conjectures, for surely suspicion in some cases is a sin, and do not spy nor let some of you backbite others. Does one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? But you abhor it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.
(12)
-> See the advice from Allah to the believers ? ?, i.e. ? O you who believe! avoid most of conjectures?, if we should avoid ALL the conjectures then it should be stated like this ? ?, i.e. ? O you who believe! avoid conjectures?
SalamSalam mate
about 4912, wouldn't you say that verse is speaking to the believers for other wordly matters besides faith?
The verse is talking about conjectures in general, it was never specific to what type of conjectures, I don?t see conjectures to be classifies in groups or something, conjectures mean conjectures nothing more nothing less, any thing that you don?t have a proof for it is conjecture, for example, the Christians are following conjectures by believing that Jesus died on the cross
And their saying Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
(157)
-> See above, a matter that is related to the faith and they are following conjectures.
..."avoid most of conjectures"...
conjectures overall? conjecture in faith? or conjectures in everyday life? so lets read on.Of course any conjecture including the ones related to faith, I showed you an example above, here is another one
Now, surely, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is Allah's; and they do not (really) follow any associates, who call on others besides Allah; they do not follow (anything) but conjectures, and they only lie.
(66)
-> See, those who think that there is another god besides Allah ? and they do not (really) follow any associates, who call on others besides Allah?, are only following conjectures ? they do not follow (anything) but conjectures,?
..."suspicion in some cases is a sin"...
so suspicion is and is not allowed it depends on each and every case,of course some suspicious id allowed, how we can fight crimes then?, in fact what you showed above confirms that some suspicious is allowed because after the verse told us ?TO AVOID MOST CONJECTURES? it told straight after it that ?SOME OF THE CONJECRURES ARE SINS?. you would have expected the verse after saying ?avoid MOST conjectures? to say ?MOST conjectures are sins?, however it said ?SOME CONJECTURES are sins?, i.e. some conjectures are truthful but it is a matter of proving it.
...."do not spy nor let some of you backbite others"...
from this you can easily come to the understanding that the conjecture that is being spoken of might lead to "spying" and "backbiting others" in which God tells us not to.
excuse me bro, don?t interpret it as 1+1 =1 , iy does not add up bro, the verse was clear and is giving us 4 different advices
- avoid conjectures
- don?t spy on each other
- don?t ill talk others in their absence
- be careful of (your duty to) Allah
maybe we should just be aware of the conjecture at hand in each case? sometimes suspicion is a sin, but acting offencive becuase of it is really bad, the verse is stating worldly conjecture not conjecture in faith.
but maybe my interpretation of the verse you find conjecturous and thus you should pay no heed. ???of course I found your understanding conjecturous because I showed a couple of verses related to matters of faith and Allah described the flawed human action as following conjectures and I have more exmples if you wish to see it
Salam