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A question?

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General Issues / Questions
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  • F Offline
    F Offline
    FJ
    wrote on last edited by
    #8

    Salaam all

    Peace Adley and thank you for sharing your opion.

    Smth else poped up in my mind and I just wanted to share it.

    In the story of Abraham in AQ, Allah tested him when he saw a dream sacrificing his son. When he was about to do the sacrificing - from what I understand that dream was sort of a command by Allah - he then was called and told not to do it and that it was a test from Allah.

    Rashad Khalifas translation
    7102 When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, GOD willing, patient."
    37103 They both submitted, and he put his forehead down (to sacrifice him).
    37104 We called him "O Abraham.
    37105 "You have believed the dream." We thus reward the righteous.
    37106 That was an exacting test indeed.
    37107 We ransomed (Ismail) by substituting an animal sacrifice.

    However silly and untruthfull the hadith regarding salaat times may sound (50 reduced to 5) one may very well see it as a test by God to Muhammad to see if he was going to obey the command of God just like the test of Abraham with his son, but it is not in Quran and thus may be discarded. But what if it really was a test? We don't knooowwww!!
    The way the hadith is put is as if Muhammad did not have any clue weather 50 salaat times ordered by Allah were too much for his people and that he didn't think of this himself and it was Moses who told him (Muhammad didn't know) that 50 salaat per day are too much and that he should return and tell Allah that 50 was too much for his people. One that knows EVERYTHING is made to seem as if He didn't know that 50 is too much!

    Peace
    FJ

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    • A Offline
      A Offline
      arnoldyasin
      wrote on last edited by
      #9

      Peace,

      A quote from my article on Salat prayer

      "The popular story how these times were given to the Prophet(pbuh), the Miraaj, where it is told God first demanded 50 prayers, and that the Prophet finally bargained it down to 5; is already shattered by that the times are in the Quran. That God would never make such a demand, as no one would have had any time to rule the Islamic State, and God doesn?t want to oppose hardship in our Deen.

      2278 And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the Deen, the System, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you ?those who have submitted(Muslims)? from before as well as in this. ..

      As you can see in the above verse also that it was Abraham(pbuh) who named us Muslims.
      And that he and all the Prophets performed Salat, and that it was a known ritual.

      Abraham
      1439-40 'Praise be to God who has granted me in my old age Ishmael and Isaac. My Lord is the hearer of prayers. My Lord, let me honour the Salat, and also from my progeny. Our Lord, accept my prayer.?

      Children of Israel
      243 And honour the Salat, and contribute towards betterment, and kneel with those who kneel.

      Jesus
      1931 'And He made me blessed wherever I was, and He charged me with the Salat and towards betterment as long as I am alive.'
      All Prophets
      984-5 And those who had previously received the Scripture did not divide except after the proof came to them. And they were not commanded except to serve God and be loyal to His system, monotheists, and establish the Salat and contribute towards betterment, Zakat. Such is the valuable system.

      So the Salat, prayer and Divine System were given to all the Prophets(pbut), and not just to Muhammed. So God never would have demanded 50 prayers a day as God clearly says throughout the Quran

      33 62 This is God's way with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in God's way.

      42 13 He has decreed for you the same System, Deen, He ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus ?You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it.? Intolerable for those who have set up partners is what you invite them towards. God chooses to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself those who repent. "

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      • F Offline
        F Offline
        FJ
        wrote on last edited by
        #10

        Selaam all

        A quote from my article on Salat prayer

        Brother Arnold thank you very much for the info and is your article on salaat somewhere available to be read?

        Many thanks to all of you.

        Peace
        FJ

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        • A Offline
          A Offline
          arnoldyasin
          wrote on last edited by
          #11

          Peace,

          I have put as an attachment to this post, see below with the paperclip..

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          • U Offline
            U Offline
            unknownuser
            wrote on last edited by
            #12

            Peace,

            A quote from my article on Salat prayer

            "The popular story how these times were given to the Prophet(pbuh), the Miraaj, where it is told God first demanded 50 prayers, and that the Prophet finally bargained it down to 5; is already shattered by that the times are in the Quran. That God would never make such a demand, as no one would have had any time to rule the Islamic State, and God doesn?t want to oppose hardship in our Deen.

            2278 And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the Deen, the System, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you ?those who have submitted(Muslims)? from before as well as in this. ..

            As you can see in the above verse also that it was Abraham(pbuh) who named us Muslims.
            And that he and all the Prophets performed Salat, and that it was a known ritual.

            Abraham
            1439-40 'Praise be to God who has granted me in my old age Ishmael and Isaac. My Lord is the hearer of prayers. My Lord, let me honour the Salat, and also from my progeny. Our Lord, accept my prayer.?

            Children of Israel
            243 And honour the Salat, and contribute towards betterment, and kneel with those who kneel.

            Jesus
            1931 'And He made me blessed wherever I was, and He charged me with the Salat and towards betterment as long as I am alive.'
            All Prophets
            984-5 And those who had previously received the Scripture did not divide except after the proof came to them. And they were not commanded except to serve God and be loyal to His system, monotheists, and establish the Salat and contribute towards betterment, Zakat. Such is the valuable system.

            So the Salat, prayer and Divine System were given to all the Prophets(pbut), and not just to Muhammed. So God never would have demanded 50 prayers a day as God clearly says throughout the Quran

            33 62 This is God's way with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in God's way.

            42 13 He has decreed for you the same System, Deen, He ordained for Noah, and what We inspired to you, and what We ordained for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus ?You shall uphold this system, and do not divide in it.? Intolerable for those who have set up partners is what you invite them towards. God chooses to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself those who repent. "

            peace be upon you,

            I find the statement by Arnold is incorrect

            2278 And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the Deen, the System, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you ?those who have submitted(Muslims)? from before as well as in this. ..

            As you can see in the above verse also that it was Abraham(pbuh) who named us Muslims.
            And that he and all the Prophets performed Salat, and that it was a known ritual.

            It is infact God who has named us Muslims not Abraham

            let me explain the error i found in your statement

            first sentence

            And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving.

            notice it is followed by a period

            end of sentence...usually periods denote end of the thought stated

            next

            He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the Deen, the System, the creed of your father Abraham;

            a semi colon indicates that another complete thought is coming after the semi colon other wise a conjunction would be used and most likely with the connecting conjeunction ,and , but , or

            here we see a semi colon which indicates to me another thought not a continuation of the same thought thus

            we see two signs this is not in reference to Abraham (after the semi colon)

            He is the One who named you ?those who have submitted(Muslims)? from before as well as in this. ..

            sign one is the semi colon other wise a comma would suffice since it would refer to the subject previous when using a comma

            then second
            the word he is capitalized

            He not he

            thus indicating God not a human

            the argument could be made this is a new thought after a semi colon but one forgets this a capitaization is not nessacary after a semi colon only after a period

            thus it can not possibly be about Abraham

            also logic says Adam was given the names of all things and to say Abraham created a title for the beleivers makes us differeinte amongst prophets and say Abraham named us and then refuses to accept God taught Adam all the anmes of things

            why would that exclude our name as beleivers where is the quranic justification?

            Amanda

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            • A Offline
              A Offline
              arnoldyasin
              wrote on last edited by
              #13

              Peace,

              Good analysis, thank you for the correction.. i will remove it from my article, but this was of courrse not the point of the post..

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              • F Offline
                F Offline
                FJ
                wrote on last edited by
                #14

                Peace to all,

                Arnold, I was reading your article on Salaat and a question popped up and thought perhaps you may have an asnwer.

                I noticed that you and some one else, I am not sure but I think it was Edip, who said that Salaat is to be performed on time as per 4103... "You shall honour the Salat. Indeed, the Salat for believer is a timed decree", and that means once that time is lost than it is lost for good. Does that also mean that one cannot push the time of Salaat a little later lets say for about an hour or two or just a before the time of the next salaat?
                I am asking this question because of the following verse in Quran

                The verse above talked about the believer and we know that the believers are those that avoid getting intoxicated...

                On the other side, however, also the verse below is addressing the believers

                1. O you who believe, do not approach the Salat while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. .

                So, isn't this verse saying that one should not approach the salat until one is in the state of knowing and that requires many hours to come to that state? From what I read on internet the medical research shows that it takes up to 12 hours to sobber up completly. If it takes that long to come to a state of knowing what to say than if one got drunk just few minutes before the Zuhr prayer than that means one should not approach the four comming salats because of not being in the sate of knowing.

                Am I missing smth here?

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                • A Offline
                  A Offline
                  arnoldyasin
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #15

                  Peace FJ,

                  I made a new discovery that 4103 is related to Gathering-prayers, and not the timing of the ordinary prayers. I believe there is no harm at all in pushing the time limit. Prayer is only an extra, it is not the main part in the Deen.

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                  • U Offline
                    U Offline
                    unknownuser
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #16

                    peace

                    what do you mean that prayer is an extra?

                    can you elaborate? and provide quranic references?

                    Amanda

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                    • A Offline
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                      arnoldyasin
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #17

                      Peace,

                      Salat comes from '2 horses in a race where the second horse is gaining on the first one, this moment was called sala.' So Salat means attachment, contact, bond but its main meaning is following closely to gain the best position. Almost all salats in the Quran mean 'following the Divine commands closely to gain the best position' and Iqamasalat means 'establish the System that comes from following the Divine commands closely'. Only in some verses Salat means prayer, like in 4102 for example. In 911 it means allegiance. The idea that Salat can only mean one thing is totaly wrong and it is totaly wrong to believe Salat mainly means prayer. The Quran is not a book of religion and worship. The Quran is the constitution for humanity, not a prayerbook. So it must be approached as a constitution and not as a religious book. Prayer only has a psychological purpose, and has only a small part inside the message of the Quran. To abtain Jannah, the higher level, we must follow the Divine commands as laid out in the Quran closely.

                      We are in control of our soul now, as we now have moved on from a bodily evolution to a mental evolution. But we must decide on our own if we want this or not. To attain the higher level we must follow certain Laws, just like evolution had to follow laws to reach this level of sophistication. So good and bad don't excist, only things that will make our soul evolves and the things that will make our soul stagnate. Prayer only is there to create psychological balance and peace. God doesn't care if you acknowledge Him or not. To believe in One God is acknowledging the Truth so you will have the best basis from where you make your decisions and observations of life and reality. All things we do will push our soul to evolution or stagnation. This is the main message of the Quran, and all the Laws that are contained in the Quran are meant to show us the way how to evolve our soul. That is why the main meaning of Salat is 'following the Divine commands closely to gain the best position', and prayer cannot be the main meaning.

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