Is the Salat physical?

unknownuser

peace AB,

Peace Wakas

Thanks for clarifying.

No worries

If they were exactly the same thing, they would not be differentiated.

Right, then they are two things, I agree that salat can be considered zikr, but zikr can never be considered salat, do you agree on that?

Strictly speaking "remembrance" would be done in the mind but it would have a real-world impact, as the sign points out.

Same as salat, I have no problem with that, I already stated that I agree with that

Perhaps I can clarify what I meant with an analogy

Lets say a person reads a book about healthy eating, and then actually puts that into practice and this results in being more healthy, more energy, stronger, fitter etc. (i.e. real world changes). So in this example, reading of the book (a physical & mental act) had a real-world impact.

Great, but did I deny that?

I think the connotation of "physical salat" (as you use it) doesn't imply the above. Thats what I intended to highlight.

Of course it does imply the above, in fact the Quran told us exactly that ?Istaino Be Al Sabr Wa Al Salat?, ?In Al Salat Tanha Ana Al Fahshaa Wa Al Munkar?

So why you are saying the contrary to what Allah is saying regarding the physical salat?

There are very few things that dont have a physical dimension considering our body is the vehicle that we use to do stuff. For example, in that case I could say "physical ibadah", "physical zakat", "physical sadaqat"... it just doesn't sound right, or at least not to me.

Great, for many it sounds perfect sense according to the Arabic Quran

It implies that the act is primarily a physical act, which is not the case because a physical act cannot accomplish 2945 for example,.

I didn?t use 2945 to prove that salat is physical, I only used it to prove that it is something else to Zikr Allah

This is an important point to reflect on. In many places in 'al quran' the purpose behind an act is emphasised to be more important than the act itself, hence 2945.

That is what you are trying to twist really, how about twisting this verse then

The Shaitan only desires to cause enmity and hatred to spring in your midst by means of intoxicants and games of chance, and to keep you off from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. Will you then desist?

(91)

Let?s try and twist this one

Men whom neither merchandise nor selling diverts from the remembrance of Allah and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of poor-rate; they fear a day in which the hearts and eyes shall turn about;

(37)

I guess you are trying hard to create an ideology to drop the physical salat because it is hard for you to do, again, the quran is talking about you, what puzzles me is this

Allah gives full maturity at age 40, and you are half that age, why you are so confident in knowing what Allah means bro? did Allah give you the wisdom so early mate?, I?m not being sarcastic or disrespectful, it is a serious question bro that you need to explain to us before we take you seriously

Please see 3030, or the story of Jesus/Joseph etc.

Please bro, be straightforward and explain to me, I know the story well, what is your point?

As for your confusion about my view, it may be resolved once you read my article.

While I?m not a fan of reading anything other than the quran as proofs, I have to be honest with you bro, I will read it when I have time, I have many things to do every day and Allah knows that every day goes I never finish what I suppose to do, how I go on with the accumaltion, God only knows as I really can?t figure it out yet

And lastly, please try not to make personal comments/accusations about me that are simply unevidenced and irrelevant to our discussion. Lets stick to the topic.
Wakas

sorry of that was the case, I based my accusation on what you said here, your stand is very confusing actually

you stated that you agree that salat is physical then all what you try to prove that it is not, very confusing man

let me try to make it simple so no confusion arise

salat is physical action only
salat is mental action only
salat is both physical and mental action at the same time

please select one bro

my choice is 3

Cheers

noble

Peace Bro Ahmed
I want to intrude on a past comment of yours about
85- And they ask you about the Spirit. Say The Spirit is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.

Plus that Allah breaths of His Spirit in Humankind conception.
Also that Nafs can enjoin evil.
I undestand that Ruh and Nafs are different.
That Ruh=Spirit amd that Nafs=Soul.
Now here is a possible explanation to the mystery about Allah being closer to Man than his jugular vein It might be due to this fact that each Human Being encapsulates a tiny part of Allah in the form of the Spirit He breathed into him/her...
This is why Allah is always with us whatever we do or wherever we are, like this tiny drop from His Spirit in each one of us is like a device that records everything we think/do/are...etc, and it might probably be imprinted in every single cell of our body because each separate part of our body will be a witness against us or for us on JDay.
Also that the heart of the Believer is the Vessel of Allah, and You do not throw a spear when you throw, but Allah is throwing it (Badr Battle), etc...
And Allah knows best

unknownuser

Peace Bro Ahmed
I want to intrude on a past comment of yours about
85- And they ask you about the Spirit. Say The Spirit is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.

Plus that Allah breaths of His Spirit in Humankind conception.
Also that Nafs can enjoin evil.
I undestand that Ruh and Nafs are different.

Peace bro

Thanks for your intrusion, I believe my statement regarding the ruh and nafs was not accurate, to be honest I never done perfect researches regarding the two words, but I agree that both words technically are different but virtually can be used to represent each other commonly

That Ruh=Spirit amd that Nafs=Soul.

I?m not going to differentiate between the two Arabic words using a foreign language I agree based on the Arabic language that they must be different words, but believe me both are virtually and commonly used in place of each other, that is why you will see many translators are mixed in how it should be translated

The subject really does not need that much researches because one of them ?Ruh? can never be known and its knowledge is kept within Allah, the other one ?Nafs? can be speculated big times and I believe it some location in the Quran it was used to represent the Ruh as many understood it, so it is simply safer to consider it as the context indicates either ?Ruh? or ?Nafs?, but I?m open to solid ideas

Now here is a possible explanation to the mystery about Allah being closer to Man than his jugular vein It might be due to this fact that each Human Being encapsulates a tiny part of Allah in the form of the Spirit He breathed into him/her...

Possibly, but I just can?t take it firmly due to the fact it will stay a conjecture about Allah, I accept that He is closer to us than the jugular vein without any explanation required, or at least there is a logical explanation for it in the Quran that Allah is able to do anything hence He is closer to us than our jugular vein

This is why Allah is always with us whatever we do or wherever we are, like this tiny drop from His Spirit in each one of us is like a device that records everything we think/do/are...etc, and it might probably be imprinted in every single cell of our body because each separate part of our body will be a witness against us or for us on JDay.
Also that the heart of the Believer is the Vessel of Allah, and You do not throw a spear when you throw, but Allah is throwing it (Badr Battle), etc...
And Allah knows best

While it is a possibility, yet a flaw can be found in it, how come Allah will burn tiny parts of Him in hell?

That is what I found that does not make sense, so I avoid hacking into what I donlt need to know

Salam

noble

Peace again Bro Ahmed
Allah never said that we will know nothing about the Ruh, He said we have been given very little knowledge. This means that we can know a little about it...
Let me give you a parable if you take a drop of water from the Sea, is it the Sea?, still that drop of water retains some aspects of the properties of the Sea, but it is not the Sea, as it has become separate from it...
To Allah the most glorious examples...
When Allah breathed of His Ruh into us, it does not mean that there is a part of Him in us. What it means is that He has touched us with a part of Him, which is completely different. Now that part of Him I believe, which was breathed into us must have to do with The Trust (Amanah). This is why it is so disastrous when people commit abominations, because they are the recipients to such a privilege and responsibility, unlike other creatures who will not be held into account.
Let me give you another better example
Blood donation, somone gives blood to someone else, or better still organ transplant. What was given is no longer part of the owner...
However in the case of the Ruh, I believe the link to Allah also is not severed, but probably gets severed on Jday for those who go to Hell...
For me it makes sense... However I will appreciate if we do some clean and decent research on this...
And Allah knows best as always.
Salam WR WB

unknownuser

Hey bro noble

I'm just about to go out for dinner with the family, I will respond to your comment later on, buit briefly, yes I agree with you that the verse never said that we will never know about it, however no one till now even came close to know about it

Salam

noble

Salam again Bro Ahmed
Well maybe we will be graced by finding a little bit about it...
I am currently reading a scientific book on the purpose of dreams and sleep (using the latest findings in psychiatry, neurology and biochemistry), and it might shed some interesting insights on the Ruh...
The book is pretty hard to read, but if you are interested and when I finish studying it, I can give you a summary of what it found out...

FJ

Peace all,

Welcome back brother Ahmed.

Peace
idolfree1, why is it that I feel I need to have a PhD in Philosophy and English Literature to understand what you are writing, or is it complete gibberish, or am I a complete ignorantus?... -\

... Noble, I guess you already have a PhD in Philosophy and English Literature or at least you are on the way to getting it

May I ask what made you start reading that book? I hope it wasn't Idolfree's gibberish interpretations peace

Salam again Bro Ahmed
Well maybe we will be graced by finding a little bit about it...
I am currently reading a scientific book on the purpose of dreams and sleep (using the latest findings in psychiatry, neurology and biochemistry), and it might shed some interesting insights on the Ruh...
The book is pretty hard to read, but if you are interested and when I finish studying it, I can give you a summary of what it found out...

All the best
FJ

phoenix1

Peace

The problem I see with a ritualistic salat (with the bowing and prostrating to the ground) is that it can't do anything.
We cannot get closer to God by performing a few prostrations. I've seen more than enough people who fall to the ground 5 times a day to praise "Allah" but don't know the difference between right and wrong. So does it really do anything? can we verify that it actually brings us closer to God?
What Kyle (idolfree1) has said makes sense because the purpose of salat is to get closer to/imitate God. And we can only accomplish that by improving our behavior. Programming our subconscious can change the way we do things.

What does programming the subconscious mean, this is what I think
When we walk, we aren't moving all our muscles voluntarily. We aren't thinking about how to balance ourselves, or where to place our arms and legs exactly to move. Our subconscious does that for us. A child learns to walk, and through practice, the "ritual" of walking becomes ingrained in our minds. It becomes so natural that we don't think about it anymore. It's the same when we learn anything. That's why practice is so important. Because you have to go from having to think about doing something (conscious) to not having it come naturally to you (subconscious).
When we watch a movie, or look at a painting, or listen to a piece of music, we may not feel the same as our friends do about it. They may think it's great, but we may think it's a piece of horse shit. Why the difference? it's because of the way we have been Programed and conditioned over the years. We are all programed differently, from the moment we are born. And when we are programed to feel something, we don't have to think about it anymore. When we listen to a piece of music, we don't think about how it makes us feel. It just does it. It's the same thing as learning to walk. Walking just comes to us.
So, you want to learn to talk like Dr. Phil? (I can't think of any reason anyone would want to do that, though) you practice.
But you must be familiar with hallucinations, and hypnotism? Well, the thing is that our brain can't tell the difference between what's real and what not. As long as the brain is receiving signals, it thinks what's happening to us is real. That's why dreams feel real too (until we wake up and realize how stupid they are). This proves that we don't have to practice in real life to achieve results. You just trick your brain into thinking it's real. You basically hypnotize yourself. Like when you are watching a good movie or reading a good book.(you jump up when something sudden, unexpected happens)
Why practice? well, there are things about us that need changing. Maybe we are programed in a way that's not so great. Maybe we are prejudiced against some race. Maybe we get too angry about something. Maybe we don't like Dr. Phil. Whatever it is, we can change it.
We can transform ourselves from what we are now to someone much better. We can find the God who is closer to us than our jugular vein.
Salat is meditation. We use our imaginations to practice. Practice being kind, forgiving, peaceful. Once we have done that, you can say that we have achieved the purpose of salat. We have purified our subconscious. Since there is no bad programming left in us, we can't possibly do anything bad. Since we are now free from evil, we have become servers of God.

Samia

The problem I see with a ritualistic salat (with the bowing and prostrating to the ground) is that it can't do anything.

What would shaking hands or hugging a beloved one do?

I agree that mechanical prostrating or salaat without feeiling (kushou3) will make prostration looks like an empty, meaningless movement; that's why prostration is linked to the pious, righteous believer. When you reach this point during your salaat, you will be overwhelmed and feel like like prostrating.

phoenix1

What would shaking hands or hugging a beloved one do?

I agree that mechanical prostrating or salaat without feeiling (kushou3) will make prostration looks like an empty, meaningless movement; that's why prostration is linked to the pious, righteous believer. When you reach this point during your salaat, you will be overwhelmed and feel like like prostrating.

peace Samia,
unlike our friends and family, GOD is not a physical object or being. We cannot hug or prostrate to God.
But please explain your point of view. What is a pious person supposed to feel?

Samia

unlike our friends and family, GOD is not a physical object or being. We cannot hug or prostrate to God.

Do you hug them because they are physical objects? I am talking about feelings that make you do this.

What is a pious person supposed to feel

How can I explain a feeling in words? It's like asking me to explain how a nice perfume smells.
For both questions You will know it when you feel/smell it

phoenix1

peace

We hug them because that is a sign of showing affection. Bowing down and prostrating is a way of showing respect.

these actions are invented by humans and different people and cultures have different ways of showing emotion
by prostrating, who are we showing repect/affection/love to?
Can only true believers feel this? if so, what about the rest? what are we supposed to do to feel that?

noble

Peace Bro (or Dude?) FJ

I am an educator, so I try to find any resource to help me in my profession.
Unfortunately I also suffer from a mental illness (manic-depression) so my interest in psychiatry and neurology.
Smile dude (bro?), its good for your health sun yay rotfl

noble

phoenix1 dude, you are twisting very powerful psychological insights and tools to make salat a mockery...
Also dreams achieve a very useful and vital purpose, there have been experiments done on animals which resulted in the death of the animal if deprived of dreaming long enough (I am not saying deprived of sleeping), also similar experiments, but not taken to the extreme (for ethical reasons) , on humans resulted in those humans to become extremely sick...
I will not tell you what dreams achieve yet, I will be compiling sometime in the future a summary on brain research I am currently reading, and believe me, expect to be shocked, as Science in this case does meet Al Quran...
Have a nice day Dude...
Nooble

phoenix1

peace Noble,

Please explain how I made salat a mockery.

Have a nice day. peace

noble

Hi Phoenix1,
You are not giving it its proper dues, making it a mental exercise. It is communion, Body and Soul.
Like when you sleep, do you sleep upside down with your body dangling from the ceiling rotfl
Or would you say you can sleep in a metaphorical way, so that you just think about it...
How about you actually need the physical aspect of salat to nourish your Spirit? Thought about that?
And by the way do you exercise, it is good for you, or you can just do it in your mind, by thinking about it... rotfl bravo yay

phoenix1

peace Noble,
you aren't getting the point.
Where in the quran does it say that salat requires bowing and prostrating physically, again?
I never said I take salat metaphorically.
I think that sitting down, relaxing, and thinking are very much physical actions.

But please explain what you mean by "nourish your spirit?" what is that?
and why does salat require it's "proper dues?"
and what do you mean by "communion, body and soul?"
please explain so I can better understand your position.

And yes, exercise is great. I like playing football. I'm not the fittest person alive though.

noble

Hi phoenix1
I will oblige you if you answer me this
What is it you and your friends mean by the word METAPHOR?
I need a complete exhaustive explanation, and then I might indulge you by answering your questions...

unknownuser

The problem I see with a ritualistic salat (with the bowing and prostrating to the ground) is that it can't do anything.

What would shaking hands or hugging a beloved one do?

I agree that mechanical prostrating or salaat without feeiling (kushou3) will make prostration looks like an empty, meaningless movement; that's why prostration is linked to the pious, righteous believer. When you reach this point during your salaat, you will be overwhelmed and feel like like prostrating.

Thank you Samia

noble

Peace Ahmed, Samia
Yes indeed I second that, but I do not think metaphorists (whatever that means because I do no yet figure out what the word really means to them) will ever be close to Allah to feel what you are talking about (Khushu'u), and unless you feel it, you will not be compelled to totallly submit, which includes prostrate to the Most High...