Is the Salat physical?
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peace AB,
I will skip the questions you asked of me that can be easily answered by actually reading the article I referenced.
There are very few things that dont have a physical dimension considering our body is the vehicle that we use to do stuff. For example, in that case I could say "physical ibadah", "physical zakat", "physical sadaqat"... it just doesn't sound right, or at least not to me.
Great, for many it sounds perfect sense according to the Arabic Quran
For many it sounds perfect? I have never heard someone say "physical zakat" or "physical sadaqat". Perhaps you can provide evidence for this apparent perfect sounding phrasing.
I didn?t use 2945 to prove that salat is physical, I only used it to prove that it is something else to Zikr Allah
Let me quote what you said after referencing 2945 (emphasis mine)
Therefore Salat is a physical action and includes Sijood
Please bro, be straightforward and explain to me, I know the story well, what is your point?
My point is that the references I cited are examples of those younger than 40 (although no specific age is given for Joseph, its unlikely he was older than 40).
And lastly, if you wish to accuse me of twisting signs/ayatin, at least have the courtesy to point out exactly what I apparently "twisted" rather than making a vague reference.
Wakas
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peace Samia,
For your first question I would say yes. It is an active action, just like the reading/reciting during salaat, it has to be active and you should understand what you are saying. God forbids us from salat if we are in a state in which we cannot comprehend what we are saying. i understand from this that He does not want mechanical uttarance (or movements).
so you are saying that we are to say nothing during salat? maybe I didn't get you.
What I said above would cover your second question. No one can tell you what to do in order to "feel" in a specific way.
Let's go by the rule that if we do good, we feel good.
what if we aren't used to doing good? how do we change ourselves? I think that's where salat comes in. For us to change what is in our hearts so that we can change our actions and thus our self. -
phoenix1
I would appreciate that when we quote thw Quran, we dont use rude words, your wtf is disrespectful...
It would have been much nicer if you used your own words to define a metaphor, as I am still very unclear by what you mean.
All the verses you quoted are not metaphorical, even the one where Joseph made a dream, because he did see exactly that in his dream. But Joseph asked his father the meaning of the dream. If his father were to give him the meaning, and if it were used in a conversation as an example of what it means then it would have become a metaphor in the conversation exchange.
See how I am nice to you, explaining to you what you yourself are not wanting to clarify.
So again what do you mean by metaphor?
And everything that is in the heavens and the earth prostrate to Allah willingly or unwillingly. That was stated as a fact and is a fact.
I am not giving any more hints.
Have a nice day... -
peace Noble,
It would have been much nicer if you used your own words to define a metaphor, as I am still very unclear by what you mean.
I think dictionary.com was pretty clear. I'll give you an example. If I say "the sun and moon prostrate to God."
Now you can take that literally. But it doesn't make sense since we have already verified that the sun and moon do not prostrate literally to God. So the only possibility is to take "prostrate" as a metaphor. The phrase can mean that the sun and moon obey God's laws. As you already know, people use metaphors all the time to explain things. The quran does the same.
The dictionary definition also had an example. "A mighty fortress is our God." Some people will take that literally and start worshipping a fortress. But I, and other sane people, would take that as a metaphor to mean that a mighty fortress is very important/helpful/necessary for survival/a 'must have.'All the verses you quoted are not metaphorical, even the one where Joseph made a dream, because he did see exactly that in his dream.
But Joseph asked his father the meaning of the dream. If his father were to give him the meaning, and if it were used in a conversation as an example of what it means then it would have become a metaphor in the conversation exchange.
See how I am nice to you, explaining to you what you yourself are not wanting to clarify.reading things like the above is what makes me say words like what the fuck!!!!!!!!
just kidding, of course.
What you are doing above (and I'm sure that you are aware of this) is twisting the meaning to make it seem "literal."
But please explain what the description of the sun and moon literally prostrating to God (no matter how ridiculous that may seem) teaches us? what is the message? what is the lesson? (please don't avoid this question too, it is important)
Is the quran just a bunch of non sensical stories (invisible beings made of smokeless fire?), scientifically incorrect information (clay, anyone?), made up historical accounts (solomon), wierd rituals (prostrating, reciting magical incantations, starving yourself, etc),
or is it a book of GUIDANCE with examples and metaphors to help us understand?And everything that is in the heavens and the earth prostrate to Allah willingly or unwillingly. That was stated as a fact and is a fact.
I am not giving any more hints.what fact??? what does that mean? heavens and earth prostrating? Please explain how the "heavens" and earth prostrate to God. Please.
The real fact, and we all know this, is that the earth cannot possibly prostrate literally to God. But I'll be happy to hear your explanation.
And please don't give me any more hints. I didn't ask you for any. I just asked you, with respect and sincerety, to answer my questions and explain your position.
So no more hints, if you want to give me answers, just give them to me clearly. -
Peace be upon you,
Regarding the statement about hugs and handshakes, these are conditioned activities. For example, some people french kiss, others think it is disgusting. Some cultures greet with a kiss to both ssides of the cheek, others handshake, etc. Its all conditioning/learning.
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Phoenix1
You answered your question yourself, they prostrate by obeying and being subject to God's Law.
We are subject to God's Law to a very large extent, however there is a tiny bit which is our free will, and Allah as a test, and as a result that we accepted to carry His Trust, He wants us to prostrate willingly too, ie use our freedom of choice to do it at appointed times every day as He explained it to us in the Quran...
This is all I am willing to argue with you, we agree to disagree, this exchange is no longer pleasing to me...
Bye bye
PS If you want to be a lazy b*m that is your choice, I did not put a gun at your head and asked you to prostrate, oki... -
peace Noble,
thankyou for admitting that the quran uses prostration as a metaphor.
Most of us aren't obeying God's laws. We aren't living in harmony with the rest of nature, that's why we must change ourselves (through salat) so that we are prostrating to God. -
phoenix1, dude please...
we use metaphors all the time, in fact language is metaphor as you use words to label and explain away real things (for instance you do not eat the word apple, but the word apple is a convenient way to label a class of fruits, so that when I use it you know what I am referring to)...
i wanted you to spell out what you meant by metaphor...
Allah has the ability to make a metaphor physical...
finally prostrating is not a metaphor, in the sense that it refers to something else, it is just that the meaning of the word depends on the context...
If Allah wants to make a point he can physicalise a "metaphor", so as to teach a lesson or test people...
There is a huge gap in understanding between me and Ahmed and your metaphorist clan...
Have a nice life...
Noble out -
peace noble,
finally prostrating is not a metaphor, in the sense that it refers to something else, it is just that the meaning of the word depends on the context...
If Allah wants to make a point he can physicalise a "metaphor", so as to teach a lesson or test people..if prostrating is not a metaphor, then what do the sun and moon do exactly?
You can call it "refers to something else" but no matter how you put it, it is still a metaphor.
And what does "physicalizing" a metaphor mean?
btw, I'm having a great life. And you should start questioning yourself, just as i do everyday, to make sure you aren't on the wrong end of that "understanding gap." -
Peace guys
I am sure you are well meaning dudes, with your metaphors and all that stuff...
However in my humble insightful opinion, I would advise you to stop wasting your time, just go and enjoy yourself, fornicate, drink liquor, fool around, eat pork, etc...
If the foundation in your faith are not sound, any good you do will not be accepted, so you really are just wasting your time...
I am also confident that whatever I say to you that does not go along the way you view things will be dismissed...
This is why I am making this "balagh" this one very last time...
Enjoy this very short life while it lasts, it is extremely short indeed... -
peace noble,
I am sure you are well meaning dudes, with your metaphors and all that stuff...
What I fail to understand is this if the verses I quoted didn't mean what I think they mean, then what do they mean? you have been unable to answer that. You even admitted that prostrating means obeying. Why don't you give us a clear answer?
However in my humble insightful opinion, I would advise you to stop wasting your time, just go and enjoy yourself, fornicate, drink liquor, fool around, eat pork, etc...
That isn't humble, insightful, or good advice. Why should I drink liquor and fool around (whatever that means) and eat pork?
If the foundation in your faith are not sound, any good you do will not be accepted, so you really are just wasting your time...
Thank you for your judgement, All Mighty.
I am also confident that whatever I say to you that does not go along the way you view things will be dismissed...
Who says God doesn't know what's in our hearts?
Enjoy this very short life while it lasts, it is extremely short indeed...
Life may be short. But it's long enough for most of us to do everything we want.
Please forgive the sarcasm. peace -
phoenix1,
inasmuch that i really love you, and that my heart bleeds for you to see you so misled, and that i feel extremely sorry for you...
there is nothing for me to add, i am not your keeper, and i will only be answerable for my own deeds..
you ask me to answer your questions,
there is nothing to answer,
this is about faith dude,
i accept what my Creator is telling me,
i do not keep on looking for hidden messages and innuendos,
He tells me that there are none, that the Quran is clear, and simple to understand,
and He warns me against pursuing lines of inquiries that would lead to ambiguity.
I do not question His forbidding me to eat the flesh of pig, or His asking me to avoid Alcohol, why should I question Him, and find riddles in His words about other matters?
My heart bleeds for you and your acolytes of the metaphors...
Peace -
Peace be upon you,
there is nothing to answer,
this is about faith dude,Peace to you. Hopefully one day you will open up and not be afraid to provide evidence for your faith. This is, by the way, a discussion board. So if you dont feel a need to discuss your point of view, why are you here?
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Peace be upon you,
Oki, then give me a good (metaphorical) reason why you do not eat the flesh of pig (physically).
The pig is a symbol of greediness and stubborness. Adam and his wife were told they could have EVERYTHING except one tree, what is it but GREED and STUBBORNESS that would make them disobey?
My question to you is why would we be told not to eat pigs meat, but no statement of Rat's meat, or Fried Bat, etc?
And I am here because I learnt a couple of things from some forum members such as Ahmed, Samia and Layth...
Good, but the only way you could have learned something is by them providing PROOF of thier understandings, not sitting back relying on "faith".
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Peace be upon you
It has to do with their insightful understanding of the Al Quran...
The issue I have about your interpretations is that you use the metaphor word loosely. In my understanding a metaphor is used in a discourse to explain a complicated thing by something simpler.
You use metaphors to mean lies... Such as prophets being metaphors, or Hell being a metaphor... metaphors to what? -
peace Noble,
so when I explain something abstract using physical examples, it is a metaphor. But when I say the quran does that too, it becomes a lie. Why that double standard? Why can't the Quran be explaining it's message through metaphors?"Faith is believing what you know ain?t so." - Mark Twain
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Where in the Quran does it talk about abstract. Abstract is a word humans use becwuse of our limited understanding.
The Quran is very practical and talks about our place in the universe and our relationship to our Creator.
Everything it describes is real, and it sometimes uses examples, parables and metaphors to explain away what we have no experience of yet...
We will experience some of these realities when the time comes.
I for one would hope I will not experience the reality of Hell, and instead experience the reality of Paradise.
