Those who follow the best....
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This is a response to a person on the Ourbeacon-forum who claimed, because a law was not mentioned in the Quran and it is mentioned in the Hadith, it was proof the Hadith must be followed, this is my rebuttal
Peace,
We just had a conversation about that some things are not mentioned in the Quran. This is for some people the reason to uphold Hadith and Sunna as Revelation and Law next to the Quran. Let's look at a few examples and see how much of these are really Wahi or just plain reason and logic.
For example, cleanness of the body. In the time of the Prophet, people didn't use no soap or alcohol to clean themselves. They used water and had different functions for their right and left hand.
Their right hand was used for non-toilet uses and the left for toilet uses. This was already a common practice in Arabia and almost everywhere else in the world. This can also be seen in the Western practice of shaking hands with the right hand and not with the left. Giving the left for shaking is even seen as an offense. Why? This is a left-over from the common practice of having different uses for the right or left, where the left almost always is used for the dirty uses as this is the non-dominant hand, and by thus less used in normal daily practices.
So is this really Sunna of the Prophet or just common sense that has come through by tradition? Answer is clear.
Nowadays we have soap. This was not avaible in the time of the Prophet. So for a sunni-muslim to use soap is going against the Sunna or not? Or is that person learning from common experience it is better to use soap, so this person makes use of the evolution of knowledge?
What does this person do? He chooses the best of what is avaible in his surroundings, and thus leaves behind the Sunna for a NEW Sunna that is better then the older one. As Sunna just means 'habits/practices of tribe or city/ways of conduct of a certain people', it is not a title that is connected with the Prophet alone. Every people and city on earth have their own ways of conduct, their Sunna, their common knowledge.For example, the discussed practice of anal-sex. This was a taboo in most cultures, and still is. Why? Because people knew and learned the anal-muscle is not made for these uses and could be damaged by it. Also the intestine contains feces and by thus can cause diseases or infection to the genitales. All of these were discovered through common sense and experience. So people learned not do this and made it a taboo.
In the time of the Prophet, people used a siwak, a root from a plant that can be used for cleaning your teeth. This was already in use before the Prophet, and it is still used today. But most Muslims have replaced it for the toothbrush and toothpaste as these are better then the siwak. So they replaced the old Sunna for a NEW one that is proven to be better.
Nowadays we have airplanes and cars, also NEW Sunna's. And i can go on and on and on.
Eventualy what do we have left? That Mohammed has invented nothing in his time. He didn't discover or recieved knowledge from God for the practices. The Prophet did what he was commanded to do in the Quran
3918 Who listen to the Word, and follow the best of its application (in a given situation). Such are those whom Allah guides, and they are the insightful ones.
He and his people chose what was best in their time, exactly what we are doing now. Sunni's are acting as if Muhammed has discovered the siwak or using the right hand. These were all common practices and knowledge. So when something is not mentioned in the Quran, but it does in Hadith, this is their so-called proof for Hadith and Sunna. But it is not. The Hadith only reflect the common sense and logic of the time of the Prophet and when the Hadith were written down.
So when a Hadith states anal-sex is not logical and wise, it doesn't prove its divine origin, it proves PEOPLE HAD COMMON SENSE IN THOSE TIMES ALSO.
Our excistence on earth and our knowledge is in constant evolution, or at least it is supposed to be so. Some people are determined to keep holding on to common sense and logic of the 9th century as recorded in the Hadith literature. So they reject progression, and are stuck, in stagnation.
When one Sunna is to be shown better, Allah COMMANDS us to follow it. So this is what the Muslims did. They explored the world and science, and when a new thing was discovered, they used it.
So let's put it all in clear order
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Many practices and advices the Prophet gave was not discovered or revealed by him. He only chose what was best in his time as commanded in 3918. These were common knowledge or wisdoms, and were gained through research and experience. This is for example seen in the Battle of the Trench, were the Prophet took up an advice by one of his followers. He choose the best way for that battle. This also accounts for any law, advice or wisdom he gave outside of the Quran.
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So these laws, advices and wisdoms the Prophet gave were not meant to be fixed laws. HE ONLY GAVE THE BEST OPTION THEY HAD AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME. Some are eternal wisdoms or laws, but most of these already ecisted before the Prophet, he only understood which ones were the best. Only the Quran is fixed in it's laws. As Allah clearly says we must follow the best. So any practices of the Prophet can be abrogated when a better practice is found, this is commanded by Allah.
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This in itself proves that the whole Sunna of the Prophet, and all Hadith are no fixed laws, practices and advices. As ALL can be abrogated by better laws discovered in times after the Prophet. And this in itself shows also that ALL of these practices of the Prophet, laws and advices are not the best laws for all times. THEY WERE THE BEST CHOICES OF THAT TIME AND ARE NOT THE BEST FOR ALL TIMES, ONLY THE QURAN CONTAINS SUCH LAWS AND ADVICES THAT ARE THE BEST FOR ALL TIMES. Hadith and Sunna can never be proven to be the best options of ALL times, as many practices are already replaced in our day and age. From the use of cars, to use of the phone, to the use of soap and the microwave. All these are new Sunna's that have replaced the old ones.
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So by command of Allah in 3918, we must re-evaluat ALL Hadith and Sunna, and compare them with all knowledge of the world we have in these times. When a better option is found, this Hadith or Sunna-practice must be disregarded and replaced by the new better version. Some wisdoms and advices are eternal, and cannot be replaced as they are almost as Laws of Nature, but these excisted mostly already before the Prophet, he only kept them alive as he followed 3918.
So there can be no claim EVER that the Sunna or Hadith contain laws outside of the Quran that MUST be followed, they are laws that CAN be followed IF they are still the BEST options we have till now. The Prophet was the best example of the world in how he choose the best in his timeperiod, so it was HOW he followed the Quran, and not with what he CHOSE at that moment.
Aleikum Salaam
Arnold Yasin Mol
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peace arnold.
Its good, but doesnt it open a door to the practice of ritual prayer to a stone? do we know something that is better, than the sunni method, agreed upon? From the look of it, and i really think its a good reply, i think it could turn into a double edged sword.
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Peace,
Of course the Quran is the first thing were the Sunna must be compared with. I believe the Quran doesn't use the building in Mecca as a focal point for prayer, so this must be first solved with the linguistics of the Quranic meaning. Then after this is settled we can compare the Sunna and so on with the Quran and all other knowledge on earth. And still then i believe that even the prayer towards the stone is less harmfull then people holding on to the Hadith that are harmfull to society and progress just because they think 'Muhammed said it' as some Hadith contain common knowledge.
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Peace Arnold,
Of course the Quran is the first thing were the Sunna must be compared with. I believe the Quran doesn't use the building in Mecca as a focal point for prayer, so this must be first solved with the linguistics of the Quranic meaning. Then after this is settled we can compare the Sunna and so on with the Quran and all other knowledge on earth. And still then i believe that even the prayer towards the stone is less harmfull then people holding on to the Hadith that are harmfull to society and progress just because they think 'Muhammed said it' as some Hadith contain common knowledge.
I disagree that Hadiths are more harmful than the stones that people idolize. I disagree because we have to look at the root cause of the problem. The root cause is the root of the harm. Hadiths are merely a symptom. The stones and the rituals around them predate Hadiths. So the Hadiths that talk about them were invented to justify the idolizing of the stones. The Hadiths are merely the symptom of people wanting to justify the root cause of idolizing stones that they fantacise to have some sort of power.
Similarly many Hadiths are simply a symptom of the root cause of idolizing a fantacised super human prophet.
The root cause are those idols that are the creations of the human fantasies. It doesn't matter if they are fantacised stones or fantacised prophets.
We have to attack the root cause and then the symptoms will be automatically cured.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
I know brother. It has more to do with taking away their weapons and replacing it bit by bit with logic. Everytime something is not mentioned in the Quran, they use it as proof for upholding the Hadith, but they must see that the Hadith only contain common knowledge and nonsense of the 9th century and that some things are just universal wisdoms which are obtained in any culture. For example to use a siwak is nothing special, just using common sense, but they approach it as if you need to be a Prophet to discover it is good to clean your teeth. That was my whole point and i certainly understand yours...
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aslm! handshake
ayman its right on attacking the root first,in all problem the root has to be attacked.
and yes hadith show common sence of 9th century.its hard to explain it to sunnists they attack u with the "you dont love the prophet" phrase.
anyways,inshallah ill try going to a sunni forum and post some common sence,its a good weapon agaist ignorance...
aslm handshake -
Peace,
I was waiting for something to say this. Give me one verse that is 'outdated' and i will show you how it works...
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Ok arnie,the 100 lashes for playing the field,explain that one,and what did it mean at the time of the prophet???
ps; i didnt know you had become a scholarly priest!!! You could have an 'ask arnie' column in the riyadh times!!! -
46-11and 4176 phoenix.
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Peace,
For understanding of the punishment for adultery we must look at the combination of 3918, 415-16&56 2220, 4120-21, 3923, and 242 and Tasreef. I use QXP here as i also posted this on their forum.
242 The adulteress and the adulterer, flog each one of them with a hundred stripes. And let not compassion sway you in their case from carrying out Allah?s Law, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness the penalty.
2220 Causing all their inner arsenal(BELLY) and their exterior proclamations(SKIN) to melt away to naught.
4120 Till, when they reach it, their hearing and their sight and their skins will bear witness against them, about all they had been doing. 4121 And they will ask their skins, "Why did you testify against us?" They will say, "Allah has given us the power to speak as He has given speech to all things. For, He created you for the first time and unto Him you are brought back. (1713, 7514)
3923 Allah has now revealed the best HADITH, a Book fully consistent within itself. It marks out both ways (to success and failure) repeating its Messages in diverse forms. Herewith shiver
the skins of those who have some idea of the Glory of their Lord, and then, their skins and their hearts soften at Allah's Reminder. This is the Guidance of Allah, and with it He guides him who seeks guidance. Whereas he who follows a path that Allah has declared to be wrong, goes astray and he cannot find a guide.456 Those who are rejecting Our Revelations and opposing the establishment of the Divine System, will soon burn in the agony of defeat. If they come with renewed preparation they will taste further chastisement. Allah is Almighty, Wise.
The most important understandings of SKIN is in 456 and 2220. SKIN stands for that which covers the NAFS, and is thus That which touches the Reality. In 2220 it is translated as PROCLAMATIONS as this is what reaches out to the Reality from the NAFS and also covers it. In 456 it is translated as CHASTISMENT as in constant defeat for following their own desires. Where their SKINS=how they experience Reality is replaced after every turn of misery because of following their own whims.
So in 4120-21 SKIN stands for that which had touched the Reality, so this refers to their DEEDS as well as how they have spend their PROPERTIES. As PROPERTIES is that which has touched and influenced Reality/SURROUNDINGS. In 3923, SKIN here resembles the real SKIN, but also again their PROPERTIES, as reverence for Allah immediately effects the way they spend on their surroundings, as in every dime is spend on the Deen.
When looking at all this and 3918 where we are obliged to follow the best intepretation, we are gonna look at 242. First
415 Protection of honor and chastity for men and women, both, is the cornerstone of a virtuous society (1732, 424). If any woman or a group of women spread sexual immorality or lewdness in the society, it is required that the appropriate court takes four honorable and reliable witnesses. If their testimony corroborates with other evidence (1226), confine them to their houses, since immorality is as contagious as good conduct. This confinement would be for an indefinite period, unless such women seek the Way of Allah, such as repentance and amendment, or the singles among them get honorably married.
416 If a couple spreads such immorality or lewdness in the society, both of them shall be punished by the appropriate court of law. If they repent and amend, leave them alone. Allah is the Acceptor of repentance, Merciful.
As you can see, a woman that is spreading lewdness and sexual immorality, as in having multiple partners and so on, the woman is bound to her house indefinitely. So more then one partner with adultery=indefinite housearrest.
But when a couple is commiting adultery, it is not with multiple partners and thus not spreading, it is logical the punishment would be less then for having sex with multiple partners as in 415. So this is important for understanding 242.
LASHES stand for IMPACTS. SKIN stands for THAT WHICH REACHES OUT INTO THE SURROUNDINGS/REALITY.
And 100 LASHES then would stand for 100 DAYS, as they must be there must IMPACTS ON THAT WHICH CAN TOUCH THE SURROUNDINGS/REALITY. And what are a 100 impacts on that which touches the surroundings? Well, 415 makes it clear it refers to imprisonment. So 242 refers to 100 DAYS OF JAIL/HOUSEARREST. As these are a clear 100 lashes/impacts on that which touches the surroundings/skin.
So again
SKIN=That which touches the surroundings/reality
LASHES=impacts
415 gives indefinite Housearrest for lewdness, so the punishment for adultery, which is illegal sex between 2 persons, must be less then for lewdness, plus the punishment is clearly connected with Housearrest/Imprisonment.
So LASHES=IMPACTS=DAYS and SKIN=THAT WHICH TOUCHES THE SURROUNDINGS=FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT.So you have an 100 day impact on their touching the surroundings and thus is a 100 day Housearrest/Imprisonment.
So the verse would look like this
242 The adulteress and the adulterer, flog them with a 100 LASHES=IMPACTS=DAYS on their SKIN=THAT WHICH TOUCHES THE SURROUNDINGS=HOUSEARREST/IMPRISONMENT. And let not compassion sway you in their case from carrying out Allah?s Law, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness the penalty. .
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Peace,
Phoenix, throughout Gender-studies(position of female in western society), it remains clear that the woman herself chooses to be a housemother in 80% of all families. So it is mostly the male that works and trades in families, so it is logical then that the larger part goes to the business-person, which is the man. Even Western society shows that women themselves choose the role of housemother, and it is not pushed upon them. So then it is logical the money goes the ones who would invest it and is also in 95% of the cases the bread-winner.
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peace arnold,
But why is that a fixed law? what about special circumstances? what about the 5% of women who don't have a male person to depend on. What about all those single mothers?
I don't know what exactly the quran means in those verses, but inheritance is one of those things I don't look up in it. -
Peace,
We can only understand that when a State is ruled by the Laws of the Quran, then we can see if it has the positive impact on the society.
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Excellent point phoenix! bravo
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Peace,
For woman who don't have a man to depend on, there is Zakaat=the Islamic Economics that will provide for them. So from every corner they are protected. These laws of inheritence must only be followed in an Islamic state which has a stabil Zakaat system. And experience say the opposite of what you think is common sense phoenix. Gender studies show 95% will not be the provider of families, and chooses this by their own will. You cannot pick out one law and say it is flawed. Yoy have to take the whole package to understand it's impact.
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Seriously has any islamic system been implemented in the last 1400 years,and hasnt society changed vastly since then? Its hard to turn back the clock on certain advancements...What if folks implement this system and it proves to be wrong and unworkable?
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Peace,
Then the Quran has failed and we must move on. But how do you know it will fail? You can only know when it rules a state, and in the first 200 years you had a Islamic State, which conquered more land then the Romans did, and they did it in less time, plus they were progressive states from which Europe learned from. Democracy in Europe came from Muslim-Spain who brought back the Greek-Arab knowledge and reason back to Christian-Europe who had totally lost that knowledge.