Night is at sunset?or whn there is total darkness?

unknownuser

7929
He made its night dark, and brightened its morn.

With what God brightened its morn? Touchlight? Light bulk? The sun? And how does God darkens something? If the answer is the sunlight, then we thus have our definition of day and night. Night is when the part of earth does not receive the sunlight and vise versa.

http//antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050611.html >> picture

The way I see, CMIIW, there's two sides of opinion regading this issue. One side says break-fast is during sunset, because... (night begins during sunset)

Firstly, 2187..."and seek what Allah Hath ordained for you, and eat and drink, until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast Till the night appears;..."
The transition period based on 2261 "That is because Allah merges night into day, and He merges day into night, and verily it is Allah Who hears and sees (all things). "
Night has light or not complete darkness based on 3637"Another sign for them is the night we remove the daylight therefrom, whereupon they are in darkness."

Premises

Night has some light (3637)
sunset period is when night and day is merged (2261)
sunset period has light (and little light)

therefore A) night begins during sunset and B) so break-fast is during sunset.

Notice that there is no gurantee that the "night" during sunset is actually night (what is the definition of night anyway based in this arguement?). In fact, 3627 is showing that God aknowledged that during night time, the earth is not completely cover in darkness.

Observe the environment,
If you watched world cup or other sports, a studium can be lighted very brightly yet the fans know it is night time... Firefly produce light...city with lights..ect

...why God mention darkness of the night in 1778 and not mentioning "dark" in 2178? Darkness must be a property of night, but not night it self (according to the observations of the world and 177.
Therefore, it is no gurantee to link the premises and say A) night begins during sunset and B) so break-fast is during sunset.

Do correct me if i am wrong coz i wrote this for truth and not to say who are wrong or who are right.

Elke

Peace siki

2.187 . It is made lawful for you to go unto your wives on the night of the fast . They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them . Allah is aware that ye were deceiving yourselves in this respect and He hath turned in mercy toward you and relieved you . So hold intercourse with them and seek that which Allah hath ordained for you , and eat and drink until the white thread becometh distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn . Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall and touch them not , but be at your devotions in the mosques . These are the limits imposed by Allah , so approach them not . Thus Allah expoundeth His revelations to mankind that they may ward off ( evil ) .

We eat and drink until dawn, not sunrise (unfortunately lol)

elke

adley

Salaam all,

What is the sign or indication that the sun is not there anymore?
I'm curious about this.
So far, I'm still breaking my fast when the sunset is over, i.e. when it's dark.

=adley=

Alen

As salamu alaykum wr wb.
Respectfully.

I think hat the night falls at the complete darkness, right? Because as long as there is a little light, that is daylight, we just call it different names morning, afternoon, evening, right?

Or did i miss something ....?

As salamu alaykum.

unknownuser

As salamu alaykum wr wb.

If you mean darkness as in ..Certain part of the earth darkens when that part of the earth receive no more sun light.. then yes, based on my understanding of verse 7929 "He made its night dark, and brightened its morn."

But i'm not really sure, at what point we receive no more sun light, (look at the picture), it is when the part of earth is completely dark looking from satellite? if so, how do we know exactly?

may God increase us in knowledge.

siki

THANKS ELKE
SO ! He is pecisely telling us START OF THE DAY IS FIRST LIGHT" HENCE LOGICALLY IT MUST END AT LAST LIGHT"
How can we take two different reference points to determine a day?
it is either FIRST LIGHT TO LAST LIGHT, or, SUN RISE TO SUN SET,. and as he has told us the
start , we must use our minds and determine the end in the same unit,
i was culminating fast at sun set,, i think i should take it to last light ,(about 40 mins after sun set here at 32 deg latitude)

peace siki

matinbhagat

Salam ,

You make an important point here.I think we all have missed an impt point,the answer has been right there!If we can eat and drink till the white thread of dawn is distinct from its black thread,meaning throughout the period of darkness right?once the white thread appears,we can no longer eat.Hmmn the 2 reference point shud be consistent right?eaning frm first light to last light?But i am still not sure because of 3637,however is dawn considered day?or issit a period on its own?day begins at sunrise right?and if dawn is a period distinct,should not be the sunset be distinct too?Well at present i am unsure,a comprehensive article as to be written using references of all verseto proof a consistent evaluation of night,because our current understandings have 2 opposing viewpoints,and it must be we are failing to see something,God never contradicts.Salam.

AspeRin

aslmualaykm! handshake
but wait! isnt there 12 hours of sun sun and 12 hours of no sun.sun sun its day no sun its night,it makes sence to me that way.(althought dawn and sunset have light,no sun,light)
althought that explanation of layl=night and sunset are two different things.it says stop eating when u the white thread its visible from the black thread(dawn),but! not "start" eating the SAME way.it just says start eating when its night.
_dawn,no sun yet,therefor its not "day"(only light)(stop eating)
_sunset,no sun anymore,the day its gone.(limited light)
i stick to breaking it after sunset(night) not at sunset(day),i dont think allah will go to hard on us.
everyone be strong in our fasting days!
aslm handshake

Elke

Peace all, siki

i don't adhere to your view at all... why do you think that we have to go from first light to last light only because it seems logical to u ? everything in life is not all black and white

the point has been discussed many times on free-minds. i start fasting at dawn (2.187) and stop at sunset (3.27)

3.27 . Thou causest the night to pass into the day , and Thou causest the day to pass into the night . And Thou bringest forth the living from the dead , and Thou bringest forth the dead from the living . And Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou choosest , without stint .

In my understanding night and day coexist during dawn and sunrise and sunset and "ghassak al-layl", so i see no problem of breaking fast at sunset - none either though to fast a little longer if you feel this is right for you. if you use the search function you find the discussion, might help you take your decision.

salaams, lk

zenje

Peace AspeRin,

It's simple isn't it? Except when people are hungry... suddenly night, dusk, day, dawn are confusing and blurry.

Is it time yet? http//i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/zenje/drool2.gif

matinbhagat

Salam zenje...lol..it is cute...when it is sunset..i wish i adopted the view of sunset..rather than night..however my wishes are not impt...i rather be more careful personally so i choose night..but its up to the individual,i do not think God is going to be harsh on u..besides the purpose is abstinence and the start and end times are rough guides..not many ppl really eat till white thread..most eat at night then go to sleep..
SALAM bros n sis

siki

Dear elke
i went through this thread with an open mind (rather i was biased towards sun set because i have been culminating fast at sun set all my life) , and i find myself accepting Zen's explanation, rather i would say it is very overwhelming.
today after a hectic day, and an hour long tennis session , when i reached home , it was very difficult for me to resist iftar with rest of the family, but then i waited , till ,,,,,last light,
when the truth dawns on you ,,, it becomes binding,,, hav'nt we been quick in adopting the easy findings? one hard one,,,, why not?
i am a little surprised about edip walking down sunset bouleward... or may be he needs to better explain for us ,,, hypno

peace

siki

matinbhagat

Salam,

there is a verse saying we remove daylight frm the night....however nahar some ppl pointed out can refer to day also..and not daylight..if nahar refers to day...we remove day from it(night) simply can mean we have seperated day and night...the two merging points are the seperation period.MErging day into night and night into day shows overlapping period..but this overlapping period is neither day or night,hence serve as seperation periods to make the transition the way i see it.Salam bros n sis..share and hurl your arguments
-) may God icnrease our knowledge

siki

Almighty , for sure is including one of the overlapping period for fasting(dawn), as for the other over lapping period, he seems to be counting it "IN "again by asserting ,to eat at NIGHT,
peace
sikandar

matinbhagat

I dunt get what u mean by God counted it in siki...salam..could you expand on that a little..thanks..salam

siki

IN means" for fasting"
first overlap= first light to sunrise....counted in.. by command in 2-187
,,,,and eat and drink until the whiteness of the day becomes distinct from the blackness of the night at dawn, then complete the fast till night,

the second overlap period is also in by asserting" not to eat till night "
he did not use the word sun set,, which is ghorub- ul- shahms or daluk-ul- shams ,as used in other ayats at various places,,,, i hope i have explained this time,,

sikandar

matinbhagat

Salam..

also night by definition shud not have sunlight..as God refers to dawn and sunset as 2 ends of the day rather than beginning of night.Also,he made the night dark is in one verse..made the night dark should includ whole night,and any part that is thus lighted cannot by definition be night.Peace.

warner

Peace be upon you

In this discussion we have two different thoughts on the definition of night ,in the same verse,particularly to end the fast

Night with little light on
Night which is dark

In reality,

At the start of the fast if we keep eating even after the sun is out (morning or lets say lots of light rather than the white thread..), is the fast accepted ?
No, since the limit is specified.

But

If you do not end the fast until it is early night or maybe really late in to the night is the fast accepted? Yes.

I guess the choice of words in the verse is related to the realities of the fast and its start and end.

So which one would you chose, Sunset( that little grey period) or Night when the sun is out?

guest

Peace, should the moon light be taken into account when defining night (darkness)?

warner

Peace be upon you

11 114

Yusuf Ali And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night for those things that are good remove those that are evil be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord)

Transliteration Wa aqimis sala_ta tarafayin naha_ri wa zulafam minal lail(i), innal hasana_ti yuzhibnas sayyi'a_t(i), za_lika zikra_ liz za_kirin(a).

TWO ENDS OF THE DAY

The two ends of the day should have some light, even little light.

Now, how will the TWO ENDS OF THE NIGHT look like?

Dark or light ?