Night is at sunset?or whn there is total darkness?
-
THANKS ELKE
SO ! He is pecisely telling us START OF THE DAY IS FIRST LIGHT" HENCE LOGICALLY IT MUST END AT LAST LIGHT"
How can we take two different reference points to determine a day?
it is either FIRST LIGHT TO LAST LIGHT, or, SUN RISE TO SUN SET,. and as he has told us the
start , we must use our minds and determine the end in the same unit,
i was culminating fast at sun set,, i think i should take it to last light ,(about 40 mins after sun set here at 32 deg latitude)peace siki
-
Salam ,
You make an important point here.I think we all have missed an impt point,the answer has been right there!If we can eat and drink till the white thread of dawn is distinct from its black thread,meaning throughout the period of darkness right?once the white thread appears,we can no longer eat.Hmmn the 2 reference point shud be consistent right?eaning frm first light to last light?But i am still not sure because of 3637,however is dawn considered day?or issit a period on its own?day begins at sunrise right?and if dawn is a period distinct,should not be the sunset be distinct too?Well at present i am unsure,a comprehensive article as to be written using references of all verseto proof a consistent evaluation of night,because our current understandings have 2 opposing viewpoints,and it must be we are failing to see something,God never contradicts.Salam.
-
aslmualaykm! handshake
but wait! isnt there 12 hours of sun sun and 12 hours of no sun.sun sun its day no sun its night,it makes sence to me that way.(althought dawn and sunset have light,no sun,light)
althought that explanation of layl=night and sunset are two different things.it says stop eating when u the white thread its visible from the black thread(dawn),but! not "start" eating the SAME way.it just says start eating when its night.
_dawn,no sun yet,therefor its not "day"(only light)(stop eating)
_sunset,no sun anymore,the day its gone.(limited light)
i stick to breaking it after sunset(night) not at sunset(day),i dont think allah will go to hard on us.
everyone be strong in our fasting days!
aslm handshake -
Peace all, siki
i don't adhere to your view at all... why do you think that we have to go from first light to last light only because it seems logical to u ? everything in life is not all black and white
the point has been discussed many times on free-minds. i start fasting at dawn (2.187) and stop at sunset (3.27)
3.27 . Thou causest the night to pass into the day , and Thou causest the day to pass into the night . And Thou bringest forth the living from the dead , and Thou bringest forth the dead from the living . And Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou choosest , without stint .
In my understanding night and day coexist during dawn and sunrise and sunset and "ghassak al-layl", so i see no problem of breaking fast at sunset - none either though to fast a little longer if you feel this is right for you. if you use the search function you find the discussion, might help you take your decision.
salaams, lk
-
Salam zenje...lol..it is cute...when it is sunset..i wish i adopted the view of sunset..rather than night..however my wishes are not impt...i rather be more careful personally so i choose night..but its up to the individual,i do not think God is going to be harsh on u..besides the purpose is abstinence and the start and end times are rough guides..not many ppl really eat till white thread..most eat at night then go to sleep..
SALAM bros n sis -
Dear elke
i went through this thread with an open mind (rather i was biased towards sun set because i have been culminating fast at sun set all my life) , and i find myself accepting Zen's explanation, rather i would say it is very overwhelming.
today after a hectic day, and an hour long tennis session , when i reached home , it was very difficult for me to resist iftar with rest of the family, but then i waited , till ,,,,,last light,
when the truth dawns on you ,,, it becomes binding,,, hav'nt we been quick in adopting the easy findings? one hard one,,,, why not?
i am a little surprised about edip walking down sunset bouleward... or may be he needs to better explain for us ,,, hypnopeace
siki
-
Salam,
there is a verse saying we remove daylight frm the night....however nahar some ppl pointed out can refer to day also..and not daylight..if nahar refers to day...we remove day from it(night) simply can mean we have seperated day and night...the two merging points are the seperation period.MErging day into night and night into day shows overlapping period..but this overlapping period is neither day or night,hence serve as seperation periods to make the transition the way i see it.Salam bros n sis..share and hurl your arguments
-) may God icnrease our knowledge -
I dunt get what u mean by God counted it in siki...salam..could you expand on that a little..thanks..salam
-
IN means" for fasting"
first overlap= first light to sunrise....counted in.. by command in 2-187
,,,,and eat and drink until the whiteness of the day becomes distinct from the blackness of the night at dawn, then complete the fast till night,the second overlap period is also in by asserting" not to eat till night "
he did not use the word sun set,, which is ghorub- ul- shahms or daluk-ul- shams ,as used in other ayats at various places,,,, i hope i have explained this time,,sikandar
-
Salam..
also night by definition shud not have sunlight..as God refers to dawn and sunset as 2 ends of the day rather than beginning of night.Also,he made the night dark is in one verse..made the night dark should includ whole night,and any part that is thus lighted cannot by definition be night.Peace.
-
Peace be upon you
In this discussion we have two different thoughts on the definition of night ,in the same verse,particularly to end the fast
-
Night with little light on
-
Night which is dark
In reality,
At the start of the fast if we keep eating even after the sun is out (morning or lets say lots of light rather than the white thread..), is the fast accepted ?
No, since the limit is specified.But
If you do not end the fast until it is early night or maybe really late in to the night is the fast accepted? Yes.
I guess the choice of words in the verse is related to the realities of the fast and its start and end.
So which one would you chose, Sunset( that little grey period) or Night when the sun is out?
-
-
Peace be upon you
11 114
Yusuf Ali And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night for those things that are good remove those that are evil be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord)
Transliteration Wa aqimis sala_ta tarafayin naha_ri wa zulafam minal lail(i), innal hasana_ti yuzhibnas sayyi'a_t(i), za_lika zikra_ liz za_kirin(a).
TWO ENDS OF THE DAY
The two ends of the day should have some light, even little light.
Now, how will the TWO ENDS OF THE NIGHT look like?
Dark or light ?
-
Salam guest,
the white thread of dawn distinguished from black thread we look to the sky,and at night the sky is absolutely dark.I dunt think the moonlight is considered as in the early morning we can sometimes still see the moon.The moonlight is not in the equation.And we must note there are days where there are no moons at all.Sky is black lightless,during the night.And the sun is the measuring device if i am not wrogn...but the moon question was interesting.Peace
-
Peace, should the moon light be taken into account when defining night (darkness)?
The moon produce no light but only reflects the Sunlight unto earth.
Should the stars be taken into account? How about street lights? Or KLCC twin tower light? For me, as for now, 7929 is enough to define night.
7929
He made its night dark, and brightened its morn.The earth is brightened with SUNlight regardless if it is mourning, afternoon and even during sunset, or even twinlight. CMIIW )
The next question is, how does God darkens the earth (doesnt matter where you live) ??
From this verse, i for now sees clearly what is night and when it is not night... -
peace All,
Some thoughts
"...wa (and) kuloo (eat) wa (and) ishraboo (drink) hatta (until) yatabayyana (becomes clear) lakumu (to you) al khaytu (the thread) al-abyadu (the white) mina (from) al khayti (the thread) al-aswadi (the black) mina (of) al fajri (the dawn) thumma (then) atimmoo (complete) al ssiyama (the abstinences/fast) ila (to) al layli (the night)..."
When the sun actually begins to rise above the horizon the colour of the sky has a yellow/orange/red tinge, thus it is highly unlikely that the word white/abyadu would have been used to describe this point.
So, that only leaves two options morning twilight or after sunrise. It cannot be after sunrise because becomes clear (yatabayyana) would not have been used as this point in time is obvious. This leaves only one option morning twilight (i.e. before the sun has risen above the horizon). This point in time fits perfectly with what is discussed in 2187. It is at this point when there is a sliver/thinness (kha-ya-tay) between black (night) & white (pre-dawn), and judgement is needed to determine this point in time. To further reinforce this, the judgement is to do with dawn, see below where the part in red refers to the part in blue"the white thread from the black thread of the dawn"
So eat & drink until you determine the presence of morning twilight (I believe one traditional practice is to eat & drink until one can tell the difference between a black thread and white thread, which seems reasonable). After this, the reading at dawn . Then abstain/fast til night.
My understanding is that night begins at evening twilight. This provides consistancy because just as the abstinence/fast starts at morning twilight, the abstinence/fast ends at the start of evening twilight.
The above would be for the mumineen (trustful), see here.
Wakas
-
There's always day and night simultaneously somewhere on the planet. It is never totally dark or totally light when you take the world as a whole.
From world'ss perspective, light and darkness are two simultaneous states.
From one person's perspective, you see day or night. While you are looking at any state, something totally opposite is happening somewhere else. As you see around you at the sky, there is no total darkness anywhere. So night is in relation to what the sun does in relationship to the earth. The sunset is the absense of direct sunlight. You can then say that that triggers the night for the spot you are at. Even then during the night, there is never total darkness if you see the sky. Some of the light from the sun is still bounced off the moon and the atmosphere.
