How Did it Come to This? (Part 1)

aladdin

Peace Danish,

This is false. The word "allah/al-ilah" is not the proper name of a deity. It is a generic noun meaning "the god". Similarly the word "kaaba" is not the proper name of a structure. It is a common noun that means "base". Thus, in Arabic "kaab al-wadi" means "the base of the valley". The cube idol was never called Kaaba and we never see the name Kaaba inscribed on one of those cubes. On the other hand, we find named of idols such as Allat and Dushara inscribed on those cubes and even sometimes those cube blocks were enhanced with an eye and a nose. Such blocks are commonly referred to as "jinn" blocks because they are ABSTRACT (imaginary) representations of the idols. This is probably relevant to the discussions going on about the translation of "jinn" (imagination/fantasy) on another thread on this forum.

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam All,

Kaaba means cube. The structure in Mecca is cube shaped. Medina used to be called Yatrib. The words elah, ilah, eloh, elo, are all nouns. The article 'the' in Arabic 'al' is added to the noun ilah then it becomes al'ilah or allah, meaning 'The God or One God" and becomes a proper noun. Allah is one of those beautiful noun which is genderless noun and cannot be made into plural.

Old Testaments uses the noun eloh for god, and uses Elohim for God. Elohim is plural for the Royalty of God, just like in the Koran, when the Koran uses, "We" to denote God, which is Royalty. The Christians claimed that since Elohim is plural, so they invented the theory of trinity. Be aware of the disguised missionaries and their tactics. They translate the Holy Koran and distribute it in Muslim countries where they don't know Arabic very much and immorally and unethically try to confuse them. They translate the word, "We" in the Koran, as "We (the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit) . Of course, by "the Word" they mean Jesus the Son/Sun.

BEWARE OF MISSIONARIES DISGUISED AS MUSLIMS AND TRY TO CONFUSE OTHER MUSLIMS WITH THEIR CHARM, KNOWLEDGE OF ARABIC, AND ALL OTHER KNOWLEDGES! BEWARE OF SATAN DISGUISED IN THE CLOTHES OF SHEEP! BEWARE!

DON'T FALL FOR THIS COMMON TRICK! BEWARE!

How to read the Koran

Allah is Royalty, and therefore when royalty address the masses, they use, We, the King have decreed......; We (God) have commanded.......

When Allah address an individual in Koran rather than the masses, then it is, He (God) told Moses ........; Instead of I (God) told Moses..., the Koran uses Allah as third person.

And, when we human address Allah in Koran, we say Allah or You.....

I have inserted in the brackets (God) to show how the above examples work!

Why Iblis (a jinn) was with the angels. Iblis was a very good abd (servant, devoted, who loved God and walked in the straight path) of God. So to make the story short God brought Iblis close to him just like the angels. God knew Iblis' nature, knew him well and God has his own plan. Thus the name Iblis, which means despair. Iblis refused God's direct command and was cast out from the garden. There is a sect in Iraq, (half Christians, half Muslims) which worship God and almost worship Iblis by keeping him in very high esteem. To them Iblis was such a good abd that he understood God's wish and willing took the fall, as it was in God's plan, thus fulfilling the Master's wishes. As the saying goes, your wish is my command!
Dante's Inferno Hell Test is based on Dante's Divine Comedy, which was written in the early 1300s and is a classic in Christianity. So are Milton's Paradises Lost written in 1600s and Goethe's Faust in 1909, which again are both classic in Christianity. The recent work of Pullman's His Dark Materials is based on Milton's Paradise Lost.
Culturally and linguistically there are two types of major religions in the world.

a. Semitic (children of Noah) based such as Judaism and Islam, who believe in monotheism of God and believe that God is not a human being. Their language is Semitic and their Scripture is written in Semitic language too, both the Talmud (TaNaKh) and the Koran.

b. Zoroastrianism based such as Hindus, Buddhist and Christians, who believe in the concept of trinity and believe that God is a human being. Believe in virgin births, resurrection and dualism of God, believe in 'God the evil and God the good'. Their languages are driven from Sanskrit, such as Koin the version of Greek used to write the New Testament and the Septuagint. The Zoroastrian are Iranians the Aryans, which Hitler was hell bent to create as the only race in the world. The symbol of Nazism called the swastika was the symbol of Mithra the Aryan/Zoroastrian God.

Mohamed

aladdin

Salaam All,

Check out "The Stealth Crusade" for the threat of Missionaries

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6976.0

Also check out this thread

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6918.msg104466#msg104466
Mohamed

unknownuser

Allah is one of those beautiful noun which is genderless noun and cannot be made into plural.

"beautiful noun"??? Just like al-ilah (the god) becomes Allah (The God), al-lihatun (the gods) becomes Alihatun (The Gods). Beautiful plural. P

Old Testaments uses the noun eloh for god, and uses Elohim for God. Elohim is plural for the Royalty of God, just like in the Koran, when the Koran uses, "We" to denote God, which is Royalty. The Christians claimed that since Elohim is plural, so they invented the theory of trinity. Be aware of the disguised missionaries and their tactics. They translate the Holy Koran and distribute it in Muslim countries where they don't know Arabic very much and immorally and unethically try to confuse them. They translate the word, "We" in the Koran, as "We (the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit) . Of course, by "the Word" they mean Jesus the Son/Sun.

How to read the Koran

Allah is Royalty, and therefore when royalty address the masses, they use, We, the King have decreed......; We (God) have commanded.......

When Allah address an individual in Koran rather than the masses, then it is, He (God) told Moses ........; Instead of I (God) told Moses..., the Koran uses Allah as third person.

And, when we human address Allah in Koran, we say Allah or You.....

Sure, when it comes to OT, their God Elohim is Royalty and becomes a plural sometimes addressing as "We", but when it comes to NT, your God Allah is also a Royalty but becomes a singular when addressing as "We".elektro It will be next to impossible for the hard-headed orthodox and extremists to understand the "We" part of Allah regardless of language. Allah is well protected.;D

In some cases (e.g. Ex. 34 ...Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush...), it acts as a singular noun in Hebrew grammar and is then generally understood to denote the single God of Israel. In other cases, Elohim acts as an ordinary plural of the word Eloah and refers to the polytheistic notion of multiple gods (for example, Ex. 203 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.). This may reflect the use of the word "Elohim" found in the late Bronze Age texts of Canaanite Ugarit, where Elohim ('lhm) was found to be a word denoting the entire Canaanite pantheon (the family of El , the patriarchal creator god).

In still other cases, the meaning is not clear from the text, but may refer to powerful beings (e.g. Gen. 62 the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them for wives...,)

Similar situations are found in Quran but I guess it works best for most Muslims when it comes to this

BEWARE OF MISSIONARIES DISGUISED AS MUSLIMS AND TRY TO CONFUSE OTHER MUSLIMS WITH THEIR CHARM, KNOWLEDGE OF ARABIC, AND ALL OTHER KNOWLEDGES! BEWARE OF SATAN DISGUISED IN THE CLOTHES OF SHEEP! BEWARE!

DON'T FALL FOR THIS COMMON TRICK! BEWARE!

aladdin

Salaam Danish,

Did you check out my post on "The Stealth Crusade" for the threat of Missionaries

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6976.0

Mohamed

unknownuser

Did you check out my post on "The Stealth Crusade" for the threat of Missionaries

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6976.0

Sounds familiar and very much common and alive in esepcially Christianity, including Islam, in promoting and converting their beliefs in various ways. Quite a competition. Such missionaries have knocked on my door many a time and left bewildered. The quieter ones are the Hindus and Budhists and the most peaceful of all are the Atheists in this regard, don't you think? And who knows, the Christians and Jews have collaborated to take back what Islam took away, once-upon-a-time and the battle continues, even among themselves, the worst notorious of all battles are witnessed within Islam where sects don't knock on their doors but knock their brains out.

aladdin

Salaam Danish,

If the Muslims are doing this, they should be ashamed of themselves. This goes againts the tenants of "freedom of religion" and "freedom of speech". This is considered illegal in most Muslim countries. I understand it is being done by the Ahmadiyyah / Qadiyanis group and is against the tenant of Islam and Koran

Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error, and whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand that never breaks. And, God is all Hearing and all Knowing (256) Chapter 2.

Mohamed

aladdin

In some cases (e.g. Ex. 34 ...Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush...), it acts as a singular noun in Hebrew grammar and is then generally understood to denote the single God of Israel. In other cases, Elohim acts as an ordinary plural of the word Eloah and refers to the polytheistic notion of multiple gods (for example, Ex. 203 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.). This may reflect the use of the word "Elohim" found in the late Bronze Age texts of Canaanite Ugarit, where Elohim ('lhm) was found to be a word denoting the entire Canaanite pantheon (the family of El , the patriarchal creator god).

In still other cases, the meaning is not clear from the text, but may refer to powerful beings (e.g. Gen. 62 the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them for wives...,)

BEWARE OF MISSIONARIES DISGUISED AS MUSLIMS AND TRY TO CONFUSE OTHER MUSLIMS WITH THEIR CHARM, KNOWLEDGE OF ARABIC, AND ALL OTHER KNOWLEDGES! BEWARE OF SATAN DISGUISED IN THE CLOTHES OF SHEEP! BEWARE!

DON'T FALL FOR THIS COMMON TRICK! BEWARE!

Salaam Danish,

When the OT refers to the Judaism God, then it uses the Royalty Elohim with a singular noun. When it uses the word, "gods" then it uses the word Elohim with plural noun. Remember the Semitic languages don't have capital letters to denote proper nouns and smalls letter to denote nouns. There are no capital and small letters in Semitic languages.

So the proper English would be when one means the God of Judaism then one should use the capital letter such as, "Elohim" in English to denote proper noun (God). When one means the gods of the pagans then one should use the small letter such as, "elohim" in English to denote plural noun (gods), or "eloh" to denote singular noun (god) in English. That is the reason the singular noun "Elohim" and plural nouns "elohim" is used in OT to convey the proper meanings as there are no capital and small letters in Semitic languages. It all goes back to

Culturally and linguistically there are two types of major religions in the world.

a. Semitic (children of Noah) based such as Judaism and Islam, who believe in monotheism of God and believe that God is not a human being. Their language is Semitic and their Scripture is written in Semitic language too, both the Talmud (TaNaKh) and the Koran.

b. Zoroastrianism based such as Hindus, Buddhist and Christians, who believe in the concept of trinity and believe that God is a human being. Believe in virgin births, resurrection and dualism of God, believe in 'God the evil and God the good'. Their languages are driven from Sanskrit, such as Koin the version of Greek used to write the New Testament and the Septuagint. The Zoroastrian are Iranians the Aryans, which Hitler was hell bent to create as the only race in the world. The symbol of Nazism called the swastika was the symbol of Mithra the Aryan/Zoroastrian God.

Mohamed

unknownuser

Aladdin, in the history of mankind, in both polytheistic and monotheistic pagan dogmas, there's always been "freedom from religion" to bring about "freedom of/in religion" most mercilessly, just because of beliefs and systems grounded in heathenism.

Quran promotes neither the "Freedom of Religion" nor "Freedom of Speech", else all non-believers in Quran and hence Islam cannot be subjected to severe punishment. The verse "Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error, and whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand that never breaks. And, God is all Hearing and all Knowing (256) Chapter 2.", goes against Quran's own fundamental and rather forceful beliefs. Besides, the attributes of God are also questionable and to most extent meaningless (see Quranic Divinity and Nature of God sections).

ayman

Peace aladdin, all,

Kaaba means cube.

No, "muka3ab" means cube.

The structure in Mecca is cube shaped.

If it was a cube it would be a "muka3ab"/cube. It is ironic that most people who revere this idol do not know that it is actually not a cube. The height is longer than the other sides. Making the height of the jinn block longer than the other dimensions was a common pagan practice to make the jinn block idol look bigger and more dramatic. You can see this here

http//nabataea.net/eyeidolsml.jpg

The article 'the' in Arabic 'al' is added to the noun ilah then it becomes al'ilah or allah, meaning 'The God or One God" and becomes a proper noun.

Adding the definite article in Arabic doesn't make a word a proper noun. Such made up rule simply doesn't exist in the Arabic language. You can see many examples in the great reading of words where the "al" definite article is added and yet they are not proper names. This is indisputable.

Allah is one of those beautiful noun which is genderless noun and cannot be made into plural.

The plural for al-ilah/allah is "al-alihat". Remember that al-ilah and allah are equivalent. This doesn't take away anything from the fact that there is only one god.

BEWARE OF MISSIONARIES DISGUISED AS MUSLIMS AND TRY TO CONFUSE OTHER MUSLIMS WITH THEIR CHARM, KNOWLEDGE OF ARABIC, AND ALL OTHER KNOWLEDGES! BEWARE OF SATAN DISGUISED IN THE CLOTHES OF SHEEP! BEWARE!
DON'T FALL FOR THIS COMMON TRICK! BEWARE!

Thanks for the warning. Most missionaries are just as ignorant in the Arabic of the great reading and in physical archeological evidence as sectarian Sunnis or Shias, so they can be easily refuted.

Why Iblis (a jinn) was with the angels. Iblis was a very good abd (servant, devoted, who loved God and walked in the straight path) of God. So to make the story short God brought Iblis close to him just like the angels. God knew Iblis' nature, knew him well and God has his own plan. Thus the name Iblis, which means despair. Iblis refused God's direct command and was cast out from the garden.

This story has many baseless speculations that are not supported by the great reading. Let's not take a true example from the great reading and weave a speculative fairy tale around it, otherwise we would be doing just like the missionaries.

a. Semitic (children of Noah) based such as Judaism and Islam, who believe in monotheism of God and believe that God is not a human being. Their language is Semitic and their Scripture is written in Semitic language too, both the Talmud (TaNaKh) and the Koran.

b. Zoroastrianism based such as Hindus, Buddhist and Christians, who believe in the concept of trinity and believe that God is a human being. Believe in virgin births, resurrection and dualism of God, believe in 'God the evil and God the good'. Their languages are driven from Sanskrit, such as Koin the version of Greek used to write the New Testament and the Septuagint. The Zoroastrian are Iranians the Aryans, which Hitler was hell bent to create as the only race in the world. The symbol of Nazism called the swastika was the symbol of Mithra the Aryan/Zoroastrian God.

Unfortunately, Judaism and Sectarian Islam have fallen in the same trap as the others. They have associated physical objects, humans, etc. to bring them near to The God. So the jews dream of building their temple to bring heaven on earth and the so-called Muslims spin around a stone and kiss it to go to heaven and think that the prophet's intercession will be their ticket into heaven. Also, many Hadiths attribute human physical qualities to The God (He be most exalted above what they describe).

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Danish,

Sounds familiar and very much common and alive in esepcially Christianity, including Islam, in promoting and converting their beliefs in various ways. Quite a competition. Such missionaries have knocked on my door many a time and left bewildered.

Missionaries have a dogmatic single-minded obsession with advancing a certain ideology. Therefore no matter what the subject is, they will always turn it around and focus on their dogma such as "Jesus will save you". Please try to stick to the subject under discussion on this thread instead of turning every thread you participate in into a single-minded obsession with advancing atheist ideology. This is a sincere advice so that you don't turn into an atheist missionary. Atheist missionaries are just as dogmatic as Christian or any other religious single-minded missionaries.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Missionaries have a dogmatic single-minded obsession with advancing a certain ideology.

Ayman, I am well aware of mythical ideologies and mystical symbolisms in all religions, with or without missionaries.

Therefore no matter what the subject is, they will always turn it around and focus on their dogma such as "Jesus will save you".

Once again, such similarities exist in all religions. Jews talk about Eloah, Christians talk about Jesus and Muslims talk about Allah. Funny thing is that no matter what the outcome, Quran must remain Allah's words, by hook or by crook.

Please try to stick to the subject under discussion on this thread instead of turning every thread you participate in into a single-minded obsession with advancing atheist ideology. This is a sincere advice so that you don't turn into an atheist missionary. Atheist missionaries are just as dogmatic as Christian or any other religious single-minded missionaries.

Please check your own post/s you started this thread off with and ask yourself the obsession of changing Islam and history around. What was all that about, whom is it referencing and from where this thread strayed off. FYI, I'm neither an Atheist nor promoting it. I am questioning and criticizing the integrity of Quran and various pagan belief systems including Islam in retrospect, in similar fashions as yourself and others do unto others as they do unto themselves.

The picture of a Nabataen god you pasted in your prior post is just one of the many gods maintaing various shapes, sizes and forms. The Kaba was/is one of the cuboid stone structures well known long before Islam took over. It has nothing to do with sectarian belief, as there are several, and whether you like it or not, it is part of Islam. Today, people are hustling, bustling and twisting Quranic words to FIT their current beliefs, each having their own sophisticated versions. You cannot neglect nor fight history. Please have a look at the following links of interest

Nabataen gods
http//nabataea.net/blockgods.html

Semitic gods
http//altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/bl_gilgamesh.htm
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_gods

Islamic and pre-Islamic gods
http//www.palmyra.demon.co.uk/superstition/godsfestivals.htm

Gods by attributes and regions
http//www.mythome.org/MidEastconcord.html

Is Allah god?s name
http//www.letusreason.org/Islam6.htm

The cult of moon god
http//www.biblebelievers.org.au/islam.htm

Hubal (The God)
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubal

Abrahamic religions
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions

The Failed Hypothesis (a must read)
http//www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Godless/Fail.pdf

The God and US
http//www.ghandchi.com/363-GodAndUsEng.htm

aladdin

Salaam Ayman,

This is the trick the missionaries play on unsuspecting Muslims that they run them into circle by making Arabic very literal. Of course, non Arabic Muslims get charmed and dazed by it, as their knowledge of Arabic is very limited. For example, when I said, "kaaba means cube." Ayman says,"No, "muka3ab" means cube."

See the connection with, kaaba and mukaab , when one removes the 3 from muka3ab, to make it simple, such as mukaab and kaaba. I am really dazed and charmed by this, such as the serpent charmed and dazed Eve and Adam. See the connection when the British say, India. And the Hindi people say it is Hind. Look at India and Hindi, the letter "H" is removed from Hindi to make it "Indi" and then the letter "a" is added at the end to make it, India. Catch the drift with the two Arabic words, kaaba and mukaab, without the 3 inserted in it.

BEWARE OF THE LITERAL CHARMER! BEWARE OF THE WHISPER! BEWARE! AND READ BELOW!

Arabic is very vast and here is an aya in Arabic, with literal translation and translated by many translators who are scholars.

Maryam 019065

Transliteration Rabbu alssamawati waal-ardi wama baynahuma faoAAbudhu waistabir liAAibadatihi hal taAAlamu lahu samiyyan

Literal The skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's and what (is) between them (B)'s Lord, so worship Him, and endure patience to His worshipping, do you know (an) equivalent to Him?"

Yusuf Ali "Lord of the heavens and of the earth, and of all that is between them; so worship Him, and be constant and patient in His worship knowest thou of any who is worthy of the same Name as He?"

Pickthal Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them! Therefor, worship thou Him and be thou steadfast in His service. Knowest thou one that can be named along with Him?

Arberry And thy Lord is never forgetful, Lord He of the heavens and earth and all that is between them. So serve Him, and be thou patient in His service; knowest thou any that can be named with His Name?

Shakir The Lord of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, so serve Him and be patient in His service. Do you know any one equal to Him?

Sarwar He is the Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. Worship Him and be steadfast in your worship of Him; none is equal to Him.

Khalifa The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them; you shall worship Him and steadfastly persevere in worshiping Him. Do you know of anyone who equals Him?

Hilali/Khan Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, so worship Him (Alone) and be constant and patient in His worship. Do you know of any who is similar to Him? (of course none is similar or coequal or comparable to Him, and He has none as partner with Him). (There is nothing like unto Him and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer).

Hilali/Khan revised Lord of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them so worship Him and have patience for His worship. Do you know of any similarity to Him?"

Malik He is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, and of all that lies in between, so worship Him, be steadfast in His worship. Do you know any other being with the qualities like Him?"

QXP Lord of the heavens and the earth and all things between them! Therefore, serve Him steadfastly and be constant in His service. Do you know anyone that can be named along with Him?

Maulana Ali Lord of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, so serve Him and be patient in His service. Knowest thou any one equal to Him?

Free Minds "The Lord of the heavens and the Earth and what is in-between them. So serve Him and be patient in His service. Do you know anything that is like Him?"

George Sale He is the Lord of heaven and earth, and of whatsoever is between them Wherefore worship Him, and be constant in his worship. Dost thou know any named like Him?

JM Rodwell Lord of the Heavens and of the Earth, and of all that is between them! Worship Him, then, and abide thou steadfast in his worship. Knowest thou any other of the same name?

Asad the Sustainer of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them! Worship, then, Him alone, and remain steadfast in His worship! Dost thou know any whose name is worthy to be mentioned side by side with His?"

See, the literal translation and compare it with the many translation by the scholars. See the difference between the literal and the many translations. Arabic is very vast language. Yes, the beautiful names belong to Allah. And, Allah is a name, and some names have meanings too. Names, such as Hassan and Hussein have meanings too, but they are names. Just like Iblis, which is a name and has meaning too. How many ways different names in Arabic are written in English, such as Muhammad, Muhammed, Mohammad, Mohammed, Mohamed, Mohamet, Mohmet and so on.

The missionaries charm and dazzle the unsuspecting Muslims with their literal translation of Arabic, just like in OT, the snake charms and dazzle Eve and Adam.

BEWARE OF THE LITERAL CHARMER! BEWARE!

It is good to know the root and literal meaning of a word, but it should be a starting point for the journey to continue! Not the end of the journey!

To read on the missionaries and how they work of unsuspecting Muslims, read the following post carefully

Check out "The Stealth Crusade" for the threat of missionaries and the methods they use to work on unsuspecting Muslims

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6976.0

By the way, there is no serpent mentioned in Koran. Yes, I forgot, it is only mentioned with Moses and his rod. The Kaaba used to be cube, but with taller people these days, maybe it has changed it shape after 1500 years. Big deal? Do Muslims worship kaaba or Allah. Catch my drift? The photo produce by Ayman of kaaba does look pagan. Big deal? It is charming and yes it did contain idols, but not anymore. Catch my drift. Here is a picture of kaaba

http//www.islamawakened.com/default.htm

There are even some Muslims who due to their pronunciation of Arabic language, mispronounce kaaba (cube) and then the meaning becomes, "prostitute". So what? Big deal? Catch my drift?

My friend Ayman cautions us about the great knowledge of archeology and to quote him

Thanks for the warning. Most missionaries are just as ignorant in the Arabic of the great reading and in physical archaeological evidence as sectarian Sunnis or Shias, so they can be easily refuted.

Peace,

Ayman

The serpents are now trying to razzle dazzle us with archeology and here is the archaeological picture of kaaba sumitted by Ayman

http//nabataea.net/eyeidolsml.jpg

Thanks for charming us. I am razzled dazzled by the above archaeological picture of kaaba. Now the real Muslims, who have overcome with joy should do somersaults. I can only say

Alleluyah! Alleluiah! Halleluiah! Hallelujah! Allaluiah!

Mohamed

savage_carrot

It's not Arnab.

See the connection with, kaaba and mukaab , when one removes the 3 from muka3ab, to make it simple, such as mukaab and kaaba.

I don't see it. I must be blinded by the cautionary red font. Have you read the thread in it's entirety as well as his other articles also on the main site? Just curious.

See the connection when the British say, India and the Hindi people say it is Hind. Look at India and Hindi, the letter "H" is removed from Hindi to make it "Indi" and then the letter "a" is added at the end to make it, India.

Um, are you serious here?

aladdin

Salaam savage_carrot,

Sorry my mistake, my mind is racing ahead. I will now correct my post from Arnab to Ayman. Though I was dicussing with Arnab on the other thread and it got stuck in my little mind!

Mohamed

ayman

Peace Aladdin, all,

The Kaaba used to be cube, but with taller people these days, maybe it has changed it shape after 1500 years. Big deal?

Just like the missionaries who ignore that Christmas was a pre-existing pagan festival, you ignore that there are many pre-existing jinn blocks that have exactly the same shape like the one in Mecca. Those jinn blocks are older than 1500 years. So we know that the shape has remained the same and it was never a cube.

The big deal is that you come here to defend this pagan structure while you are ignorant of even the most basic information about it such as its shape. This is just like Christian missionaries who defend their ideology while being ignorant about its source.

Another big deal is that just like Christian missionaries when you are faced with the truth, you hide this obvious truth behind spontaneous illogical apologetic speculations such as "with taller people these days, maybe it has changed it shape after 1500 years".

Are you a missionary for the so-called Kaaba?

Do Muslims worship kaaba or Allah. Catch my drift?

Sectarian Muslims surely serve the so-called Kaaba. Haven't you heard of the "servant of the two holy mosques"?

Surely the pure obligation is to The God alone and those who took less than Him as protectors (say) "We do not serve them except so that they bring us nearer to The God." Indeed, The God will judge between them in what they are differing in.

Just like sectarians who make the so-called Kaaba the center of attention to bring them nearer to The God, if you ask Christians and pagans, they will say that a cross or a statue is simply a means to focus and bring them nearer to The God and they don't "worship" it.

If you are walking in the desert near your hometown and you come across some people who have built a stone structure and are spinning around it and kissing and fondling a stone set in an enclosure in one of its corners, what would you instinctively think? You would instinctively think that those people belong to some weird pagan cult. This is the natural instinct that The God put in all of us. The symbols and rituals are exactly the same in Mecca. The only reason why you don't think the same when you see people doing the same exact thing with the same sort of objects in Mecca is that you have been brainwashed to suppress your natural God-given instinct.

The photo produce by Ayman of kaaba does look pagan. Big deal? It is charming and yes it did contain idols, but not anymore. Catch my drift.

All the similar jinn blocks that predate the so-called Kaaba do not contain idols. Those stone blocks were themselves the idols.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Danish,

The Kaba was/is one of the cuboid stone structures well known long before Islam took over.

This is patently false. There is no mention of the word Ka3ba anywhere in pre-quranic or early post-quranic times in relation to any stone structure. Those stone structures are jinn blocks and they are associated with Arabian idols such as Allat. If you disagree, then show us one inscription or manuscript from "long before Islam took over" that gives the name Ka3ba as that of a stone structure.

Deep inside, there is not much difference between the basis of your beliefs and those of Sunnis or Shias. You both have blind faith in baseless sectarian mythology linking the word "kaaba" in the great reading to the stone structure and you ignore to bring any real evidence to support your claims. Your ideas are an example of atheist Sunnism.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Hello Ayman,

This is patently false. There is no mention of the word Ka3ba anywhere in pre-quranic or early post-quranic times in relation to any stone structure. Those stone structures are jinn blocks and they are associated with Arabian idols such as Allat. If you disagree, then show us one inscription or manuscript from "long before Islam took over" that gives the name Ka3ba as that of a stone structure.

There lies not a shred of doubt that the word Kaka or kaaba has always meant a cuboid structure (a derivative of mukaab), one of which was located at Mecca and worshipped by Muhammad. Pre-quranic or post-quranic evidence of this word exists itself throughout ahadiths, Quran (595 & 597), gazillion religious and non-religious websites, encyclopedias and dictionaries and above all, clearly being witnessed today. Your call for this word to be patently false and not mentioned anywhere is brutal and insane and then calling it jinn blocks, when jinn means hidden, is even sillier. And if jinn meant devils, then worshipping these blocks by Muslims and all other religious denominations speak for themselves. We also know via historical facts that the Kaba at Mecca had been destroyed and rebuilt several times, so much so, that it has now been paintstakenly lavished to accomodate millions of Muslims throughout the world, who not only bow and prostrate towards it on a daily basis, but pay homage to Allah (The God) at least once a year.

Quran 595
Khalifa
O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.

Yusuf Ali
O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. God forgives what is past for repetition God will exact from him the penalty. For God is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.

Shakir
O you who believe! do not kill game while you are on pilgrimage, and whoever among you shall kill it intentionally, the compensation (of it) is the like of what he killed, from the cattle, as two just persons among you shall judge, as an offering to be brought to the Kaaba or the expiation (of it) is the feeding of the poor or the equivalent of it in fasting, that he may taste the unwholesome result of his deed; Allah has pardoned what is gone by; and whoever returns (to it), Allah will inflict retribution on him; and Allah is Mighty, Lord of Retribution.

"Progressive Muslims"
O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whosoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to expiate with the same from the livestock, to be judged by of justice from you in the form of a fine which shall reach the Kaab'a; or its cancellation shall be using it to feed the needy ones, while he is denied anything from it; that is to suffer the results of his deed; God forgives what has past. And whosoever returns, then God will seek vengeance from him. God is Noble, capable of vengeance.

Quran 597
Khalifa
GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Masjid, to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (to the Sacred Masjid), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.

Yusuf Ali
God made the Ka'ba, the Sacred House, an asylum of security for men, as also the Sacred Months, the animals for offerings, and the garlands that mark them That ye may know that God hath knowledge of what is in the heavens and on earth and that God is well acquainted with all things.

Shakir
Allah has made the Kaaba, the sacred house, a maintenance for the people, and the sacred month and the offerings and the sacrificial animals with garlands; this is that you may know that Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth, and that Allah is the Knower of all things.

"Progressive Muslims"
God Has made the Kaab'a the restricted Shrine, as a standing for the people, and the restricted month, and the guidance, and what is posted; that is so you know that God knows what is in heavens and what is in earth, and that God is aware of all things.

Deep inside, there is not much difference between the basis of your beliefs and those of Sunnis or Shias. You both have blind faith in baseless sectarian mythology linking the word "kaaba" in the great reading to the stone structure and you ignore to bring any real evidence to support your claims. Your ideas are an example of atheist Sunnism.

Real evidence is mentioned above and in the links provided below. Never heard of "atheist Sunnism", LOL! As I mentioned earlier, it is not possible for you or others to neglect or fight history to bring about newer versions of Islam. You either put up with it or invent your own religion. Can't change facts and can't rely solely on root to shoot.

Jinn blocks
http//aig.cs.man.ac.uk/people/mashhuda/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=Jordan_2002&id=Petra_jinn_blocks

Kaaba blocks (first picture is of the above link)
http//www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/kaaba_blocks.html

Stelas (simply means stone or wooden slabs and pillars)
http//www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/nabat_stela.html

List of tombs and shrines
http//www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/alpha_index_tombs.html

Various Quran manuscripts
http//www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/quran/quran_index.html

Petra brief
http//www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/petra.html

http//nabataea.net/blockgods.html

The word Kaaba found in encyclopedias and dictionaries
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

http//www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Kaaba

http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/kaba

ayman

Peace Danish,

There lies not a shred of doubt that the word Kaka or kaaba has always meant a cuboid structure (a derivative of mukaab), one of which was located at Mecca and worshipped by Muhammad.

This is just blindly repeating what sectarians claim. It is based on ignorance of Arabic. The word "ka3ba" has the same exact meaning as its masculine counterpart "ka3b". The feminine simply adds intensification but doesn't change the meaning. Ask anyone what "ka3b" means and they will tell you that it means the heel of the shoe or the heel of the foot (i.e., the base of the shoe or the foot). No one will tell you that it means cube. Also, go to rural areas of Arabia and you will hear people talk about "ka3b al-wadi". Ask them what they mean and they will tell you that they mean the base of the vallet NOT the cube of the valley. Similarly, a related word, "tak3iba" means the base on which grapes climb. In fact, even the word "muka3ab" has the meaning of a cuboid or a shape with bases on all sides. So the meaning of "base" is the one that runs through out the various forms.

Pre-quranic or post-quranic evidence of this word exists itself throughout ahadiths

Typical atheist Sunni logic. You base your beliefs on Ahadiths. In your atheist Sunni missionary zeal you ignore that Ahadith are not pre-quranic.

Quran (595 & 597)

You mean sectarian post-quranic interpretations of 595 and 597.

gazillion religious and non-religious websites

I am sure that websites didn't exist at the time of the great reading so they must all be post-quranic.

In fact, the very web sites that you gave the links to and that show pictures of jinn blocks do not say that the word "kaaba" was ever found inscribed on one of those blocks. For example, you never find an inscription saying "this a Kaaba" or this is "a Kaaba dedicated to this idol". On the contrary, you find the name of the idol (such as Dushara or Allat) on the block or near it but never the word "kaaba".

encyclopedias and dictionaries and above all, clearly being witnessed today.

This is all post-quranic. So you didn't really bring any pre-quranic evidence.

Your call for this word to be patently false and not mentioned anywhere is brutal and insane and then calling it jinn blocks, when jinn means hidden, is even sillier. And if jinn meant devils, then worshipping these blocks by Muslims and all other religious denominations speak for themselves.

The word "jinn" means fantasy/imagination/abstract. Of course, our fatasy/imagination is hidden and abstract is a hidden imagined representation of something. So "jinn" blocks are simply abstract representations of the idols. You can verify this with your own eyes.

We also know via historical facts that the Kaba at Mecca had been destroyed and rebuilt several times, so much so, that it has now been paintstakenly lavished to accomodate millions of Muslims throughout the world, who not only bow and prostrate towards it on a daily basis, but pay homage to Allah (The God) at least once a year.

None of those "historical facts" are pre-quranic. So whatever nonsense Muslims are doing is not supported by the great reading but is based on their mythology and Ahadith. You base your rejection of The God on your blind faith in those very same sectarian mythology and Ahadith. It is ironic that you reject The God but have no problem accepting them.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser