How Did it Come to This? (Part 1)

[ayman]

Peace Aladdin, all,

The Kaaba used to be cube, but with taller people these days, maybe it has changed it shape after 1500 years. Big deal?

Just like the missionaries who ignore that Christmas was a pre-existing pagan festival, you ignore that there are many pre-existing jinn blocks that have exactly the same shape like the one in Mecca. Those jinn blocks are older than 1500 years. So we know that the shape has remained the same and it was never a cube.

The big deal is that you come here to defend this pagan structure while you are ignorant of even the most basic information about it such as its shape. This is just like Christian missionaries who defend their ideology while being ignorant about its source.

Another big deal is that just like Christian missionaries when you are faced with the truth, you hide this obvious truth behind spontaneous illogical apologetic speculations such as "with taller people these days, maybe it has changed it shape after 1500 years".

Are you a missionary for the so-called Kaaba?

Do Muslims worship kaaba or Allah. Catch my drift?

Sectarian Muslims surely serve the so-called Kaaba. Haven't you heard of the "servant of the two holy mosques"?

393. Surely the pure obligation is to The God alone and those who took less than Him as protectors (say) "We do not serve them except so that they bring us nearer to The God." Indeed, The God will judge between them in what they are differing in.

Just like sectarians who make the so-called Kaaba the center of attention to bring them nearer to The God, if you ask Christians and pagans, they will say that a cross or a statue is simply a means to focus and bring them nearer to The God and they don't "worship" it.

If you are walking in the desert near your hometown and you come across some people who have built a stone structure and are spinning around it and kissing and fondling a stone set in an enclosure in one of its corners, what would you instinctively think? You would instinctively think that those people belong to some weird pagan cult. This is the natural instinct that The God put in all of us. The symbols and rituals are exactly the same in Mecca. The only reason why you don't think the same when you see people doing the same exact thing with the same sort of objects in Mecca is that you have been brainwashed to suppress your natural God-given instinct.

The photo produce by Ayman of kaaba does look pagan. Big deal? It is charming and yes it did contain idols, but not anymore. Catch my drift.

All the similar jinn blocks that predate the so-called Kaaba do not contain idols. Those stone blocks were themselves the idols.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace Danish,

The Kaba was/is one of the cuboid stone structures well known long before Islam took over.

This is patently false. There is no mention of the word Ka3ba anywhere in pre-quranic or early post-quranic times in relation to any stone structure. Those stone structures are jinn blocks and they are associated with Arabian idols such as Allat. If you disagree, then show us one inscription or manuscript from "long before Islam took over" that gives the name Ka3ba as that of a stone structure.

Deep inside, there is not much difference between the basis of your beliefs and those of Sunnis or Shias. You both have blind faith in baseless sectarian mythology linking the word "kaaba" in the great reading to the stone structure and you ignore to bring any real evidence to support your claims. Your ideas are an example of atheist Sunnism.

Peace,

Ayman

[unknownuser]

Hello Ayman,

This is patently false. There is no mention of the word Ka3ba anywhere in pre-quranic or early post-quranic times in relation to any stone structure. Those stone structures are jinn blocks and they are associated with Arabian idols such as Allat. If you disagree, then show us one inscription or manuscript from "long before Islam took over" that gives the name Ka3ba as that of a stone structure.

There lies not a shred of doubt that the word Kaka or kaaba has always meant a cuboid structure (a derivative of mukaab), one of which was located at Mecca and worshipped by Muhammad. Pre-quranic or post-quranic evidence of this word exists itself throughout ahadiths, Quran (595 & 597), gazillion religious and non-religious websites, encyclopedias and dictionaries and above all, clearly being witnessed today. Your call for this word to be patently false and not mentioned anywhere is brutal and insane and then calling it jinn blocks, when jinn means hidden, is even sillier. And if jinn meant devils, then worshipping these blocks by Muslims and all other religious denominations speak for themselves. We also know via historical facts that the Kaba at Mecca had been destroyed and rebuilt several times, so much so, that it has now been paintstakenly lavished to accomodate millions of Muslims throughout the world, who not only bow and prostrate towards it on a daily basis, but pay homage to Allah (The God) at least once a year.

Quran 595
Khalifa
O you who believe, do not kill any game during pilgrimage. Anyone who kills any game on purpose, his fine shall be a number of livestock animals that is equivalent to the game animals he killed. The judgment shall be set by two equitable people among you. They shall make sure that the offerings reach the Ka`bah. Otherwise, he may expiate by feeding poor people, or by an equivalent fast to atone for his offense. GOD has pardoned past offenses. But if anyone returns to such an offense, GOD will avenge it. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.

Yusuf Ali
O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. God forgives what is past for repetition God will exact from him the penalty. For God is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.

Shakir
O you who believe! do not kill game while you are on pilgrimage, and whoever among you shall kill it intentionally, the compensation (of it) is the like of what he killed, from the cattle, as two just persons among you shall judge, as an offering to be brought to the Kaaba or the expiation (of it) is the feeding of the poor or the equivalent of it in fasting, that he may taste the unwholesome result of his deed; Allah has pardoned what is gone by; and whoever returns (to it), Allah will inflict retribution on him; and Allah is Mighty, Lord of Retribution.

"Progressive Muslims"
O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whosoever of you kills it deliberately, then the recompense is to expiate with the same from the livestock, to be judged by of justice from you in the form of a fine which shall reach the Kaab'a; or its cancellation shall be using it to feed the needy ones, while he is denied anything from it; that is to suffer the results of his deed; God forgives what has past. And whosoever returns, then God will seek vengeance from him. God is Noble, capable of vengeance.

Quran 597
Khalifa
GOD has appointed the Ka`bah, the Sacred Masjid, to be a sanctuary for the people, and also the Sacred Months, the offerings (to the Sacred Masjid), and the garlands marking them. You should know that GOD knows everything in the heavens and the earth, and that GOD is Omniscient.

Yusuf Ali
God made the Ka'ba, the Sacred House, an asylum of security for men, as also the Sacred Months, the animals for offerings, and the garlands that mark them That ye may know that God hath knowledge of what is in the heavens and on earth and that God is well acquainted with all things.

Shakir
Allah has made the Kaaba, the sacred house, a maintenance for the people, and the sacred month and the offerings and the sacrificial animals with garlands; this is that you may know that Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth, and that Allah is the Knower of all things.

"Progressive Muslims"
God Has made the Kaab'a the restricted Shrine, as a standing for the people, and the restricted month, and the guidance, and what is posted; that is so you know that God knows what is in heavens and what is in earth, and that God is aware of all things.

Deep inside, there is not much difference between the basis of your beliefs and those of Sunnis or Shias. You both have blind faith in baseless sectarian mythology linking the word "kaaba" in the great reading to the stone structure and you ignore to bring any real evidence to support your claims. Your ideas are an example of atheist Sunnism.

Real evidence is mentioned above and in the links provided below. Never heard of "atheist Sunnism", LOL! As I mentioned earlier, it is not possible for you or others to neglect or fight history to bring about newer versions of Islam. You either put up with it or invent your own religion. Can't change facts and can't rely solely on root to shoot.

Jinn blocks
http//aig.cs.man.ac.uk/people/mashhuda/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=Jordan_2002&id=Petra_jinn_blocks

Kaaba blocks (first picture is of the above link)
http//www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/kaaba_blocks.html

Stelas (simply means stone or wooden slabs and pillars)
http//www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/nabat_stela.html

List of tombs and shrines
http//www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/alpha_index_tombs.html

Various Quran manuscripts
http//www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/quran/quran_index.html

Petra brief
http//www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/petra.html

http//nabataea.net/blockgods.html

The word Kaaba found in encyclopedias and dictionaries
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

http//www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Kaaba

http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/kaba

[ayman]

Peace Danish,

There lies not a shred of doubt that the word Kaka or kaaba has always meant a cuboid structure (a derivative of mukaab), one of which was located at Mecca and worshipped by Muhammad.

This is just blindly repeating what sectarians claim. It is based on ignorance of Arabic. The word "ka3ba" has the same exact meaning as its masculine counterpart "ka3b". The feminine simply adds intensification but doesn't change the meaning. Ask anyone what "ka3b" means and they will tell you that it means the heel of the shoe or the heel of the foot (i.e., the base of the shoe or the foot). No one will tell you that it means cube. Also, go to rural areas of Arabia and you will hear people talk about "ka3b al-wadi". Ask them what they mean and they will tell you that they mean the base of the vallet NOT the cube of the valley. Similarly, a related word, "tak3iba" means the base on which grapes climb. In fact, even the word "muka3ab" has the meaning of a cuboid or a shape with bases on all sides. So the meaning of "base" is the one that runs through out the various forms.

Pre-quranic or post-quranic evidence of this word exists itself throughout ahadiths

Typical atheist Sunni logic. You base your beliefs on Ahadiths. In your atheist Sunni missionary zeal you ignore that Ahadith are not pre-quranic.

Quran (595 & 597)

You mean sectarian post-quranic interpretations of 595 and 597.

gazillion religious and non-religious websites

I am sure that websites didn't exist at the time of the great reading so they must all be post-quranic.

In fact, the very web sites that you gave the links to and that show pictures of jinn blocks do not say that the word "kaaba" was ever found inscribed on one of those blocks. For example, you never find an inscription saying "this a Kaaba" or this is "a Kaaba dedicated to this idol". On the contrary, you find the name of the idol (such as Dushara or Allat) on the block or near it but never the word "kaaba".

encyclopedias and dictionaries and above all, clearly being witnessed today.

This is all post-quranic. So you didn't really bring any pre-quranic evidence.

Your call for this word to be patently false and not mentioned anywhere is brutal and insane and then calling it jinn blocks, when jinn means hidden, is even sillier. And if jinn meant devils, then worshipping these blocks by Muslims and all other religious denominations speak for themselves.

The word "jinn" means fantasy/imagination/abstract. Of course, our fatasy/imagination is hidden and abstract is a hidden imagined representation of something. So "jinn" blocks are simply abstract representations of the idols. You can verify this with your own eyes.

We also know via historical facts that the Kaba at Mecca had been destroyed and rebuilt several times, so much so, that it has now been paintstakenly lavished to accomodate millions of Muslims throughout the world, who not only bow and prostrate towards it on a daily basis, but pay homage to Allah (The God) at least once a year.

None of those "historical facts" are pre-quranic. So whatever nonsense Muslims are doing is not supported by the great reading but is based on their mythology and Ahadith. You base your rejection of The God on your blind faith in those very same sectarian mythology and Ahadith. It is ironic that you reject The God but have no problem accepting them.

Peace,

Ayman

[unknownuser]

Peace Danish,

This is just blindly repeating what sectarians claim. It is based on ignorance of Arabic. The word "ka3ba" has the same exact meaning as its masculine counterpart "ka3b". The feminine simply adds intensification but doesn't change the meaning. Ask anyone what "ka3b" means and they will tell you that it means the heel of the shoe or the heel of the foot (i.e., the base of the shoe or the foot). No one will tell you that it means cube. Also, go to rural areas of Arabia and you will hear people talk about "ka3b al-wadi". Ask them what they mean and they will tell you that they mean the base of the vallet NOT the cube of the valley. Similarly, a related word, "tak3iba" means the base on which grapes climb. In fact, even the word "muka3ab" has the meaning of a cuboid or a shape with bases on all sides. So the meaning of "base" is the one that runs through out the various forms.

Typical atheist Sunni logic. You base your beliefs on Ahadiths. In your atheist Sunni missionary zeal you ignore that Ahadith are not pre-quranic.

You mean sectarian post-quranic interpretations of 595 and 597.

I am sure that websites didn't exist at the time of the great reading so they must all be post-quranic.

In fact, the very web sites that you gave the links to and that show pictures of jinn blocks do not say that the word "kaaba" was ever found inscribed on one of those blocks. For example, you never find an inscription saying "this a Kaaba" or this is "a Kaaba dedicated to this idol". On the contrary, you find the name of the idol (such as Dushara or Allat) on the block or near it but never the word "kaaba".

This is all post-quranic. So you didn't really bring any pre-quranic evidence.

The word "jinn" means fantasy/imagination/abstract. Of course, our fatasy/imagination is hidden and abstract is a hidden imagined representation of something. So "jinn" blocks are simply abstract representations of the idols. You can verify this with your own eyes.

None of those "historical facts" are pre-quranic. So whatever nonsense Muslims are doing is not supported by the great reading but is based on their mythology and Ahadith. You base your rejection of The God on your blind faith in those very same sectarian mythology and Ahadith. It is ironic that you reject The God but have no problem accepting them.

Peace,

Ayman

Hello Ayman,

Let me make an overall recap of your gibberish yet hilarious statements made in your post above

What you and a few others here (especially Kyle) don?t seem to understand or rather forgetting that there are proper names and terms given/assigned to a body/thing which also carry a common meaning/noun.

Kab, kaba and mukaab do carry the connoted meanings of base and used in various contexts, but that does not mean that idol stone blocks/slabs were not called Kaba and thus conclude that kaba enforcedly means base. In the same manner, ahmed means praised/admired, in its common form but Ahmed is also a proper name, an identity, a title, a designation, an epithet assigned/given to that specific body/thing/person.

In another example, the word Shireen means sweet, lively, pleasing, etc. but is also a proper name given to a female person, and can be assigned to give a name as an identity to a bird, a dog, a fish, a business, a building or a plaza, a movie, a book, etc., etc. Shireen also addresses honey, candies, nature, smell, drinks, a face, and so forth. It is utterly foolish to take any name/identity/designation out-of-the-bloom and make them common nouns/meanings blindfoldedly without knowing what it is that is being called for.

An ?atheist Sunnism??? Never heard of such a fantastic invention. Must be hidden/fantasized/abstract and pre-quranic in its latest fashion. The Sunnies and Atheists will get a profound lightning shock from you in command to join faiths and become one as ?Sunnatheism?.

You love quoting the word ?sectarianism? (as in Sunnies, Shias, Wahabies, Salafies, Ahmedias, Bahaiies, etc.), not knowing that you yourself along with some others have become one (Quranist or a God-Aloner/Quran-Aloner or a Progressive Muslim or a Reformed Muslim of 21st Century). And, ah yes, never to forget the absolute dainty sectarians, the 19ers (i.e. the Quranic mathematicians). To me, all sectarians come from the same ancient roots of paganism having different tastes and tales to tell.

You mentioned that jinn means fantasy/imagination/abstract/hidden and people fantasized idols, therefore the stone blocks are called jinn blocks and then you want me to verify the hidden/fantasized with my eyes? I?m sure people can fantasize an unknown alien from Jupiter with ease and call it HoopDeLoop.

Then you claim that the word ?kaba? has never been found inscribed on those blocks, therefore they are never called Kaba Blocks, in-spite of numerous evidence provided. But here?s the thing, is the word ?jinn? inscribed on those blocks to become jinn blocks and have you gotten any substantial evidence to back up your own claim from various ?authentic? sources in the manner I presented the Kaba Blocks and that you must present a ?pre-quranic? evidence? I just hope you are not fantasizing like the pagans.

Now here comes the most merciful and gracious part of all fantasies Ahadiths are all post-quranic, Quran?s 595 & 597 are ?sectarian? post-quranic, all religious and non-religious websites are post-quranic, all encyclopedias and dictionaries are post-quranic, all links I provided are post-quranic and all ?historical facts? are post-quranic, therefore none of the above is evidence of pre-quranic. Good lord!!!

So Ayman, are all your posts in this entire forum pre-quranic? Is the entire information provided in the World Wide Web just useless because the Internet itself is not pre-quranic? Are Lanes and Hans Arabic dictionaries pre-quranic? What about yourself, are you post-quranic or pre-quranic? Even Allah will fall out from his throne laughing and mourning with tears when He hears such ludicrousness.

Here?s an example of how the 21st century Quranists make extractions
They pick a word from the Quran such as salaat, check its ambiguous roots from post-quranic Arabic dictionaries, take all the meanings at hand and check them one by one to see IF it FITS the verse. If one or more of the meanings of salaat FITS the verse and makes sense, then VOILA, they think that that is exactly what happened 1500 years ago. When all possible meanings FIT for the same word, then you have several interpretations coming out of post-quranic individuals, all happening at the same time. Why, because the Quran says so that Allah?s words don?t run out?

So now then, when Muhammad were to proclaim everyone to perform salaat, some would be doing their rituals in bowings and prostrations towards Allah at Kaba, some meditating in trance mode, some bonding and linking to Allah knows what, some orating to others (making speeches), some just assembling in still motion, some committing to whatever they are doing, some would be turning around in all directions till they get dizzy, heck some may be fantasizing houries in heaven for all you know, etc., etc., then finally comes Allah?s anger at them via 37154 and repeat 6836. Forget about history, who cares, I am still a Muslim, Islam is my religion and Quran is Allah?s words.

Holy Shmoly Macaroni. It ain?t gonna get any hilarious than this.

[aladdin]

Salaam All,

Kabaa and Mecca predates Abraham read the Koran, read the Koran properly, it is all there.

Man is central to Christianity, and such there is no concept of any other higher intelligence in Christianity. In Islam jinn was created long, long before human. And, the human was nobody, not even mentioned for a long, long time. The world is about 400 billion years old, not 6000 years old as some claim. Read the Koran properly. The Koran talks about other higher intelligent beings beside humans, it talks about Big Bang! (BBC hardtalk in February 2006 with Penrose) and evolution. Read the Koran properly.

The root of Arabic is great but Arabic is very vast and the journey shouldn't stop at the root but should continue from there on.

It is time of Fitna again in Islam, trying to divide Sunni/Shia/Ibada..... BEWARE!

Mohamed

[ayman]

Peace Danish,

Let me make an overall recap of your gibberish yet hilarious statements made in your post above

Your "recap" is longer than the original post. Please stick to the subject.

What you and a few others here (especially Kyle) don?t seem to understand or rather forgetting that there are proper names and terms given/assigned to a body/thing which also carry a common meaning/noun.

This proper name argument is another perfect example of atheist Sunnism. This is the same exact tactic used by sectarians. Sectarians love to hide the truth behind meaningless proper names.

Kab, kaba and mukaab do carry the connoted meanings of base and used in various contexts

Yes. This is clear.

but that does not mean that idol stone blocks/slabs were not called Kaba and thus conclude that kaba enforcedly means base.

It is not my problem that you are not intellectual enough to know how to differentiate between common nouns and proper names.

It is easy to differentiate common nouns and proper names. Common nouns fit in the context. We can see that "base" fits in the context of 595 and 597.

The above is enough proof that it is a common noun. When you add to this the fact that there is not a single pre-quranic shred of evidence showing the name Kaaba to be associated with any such structures, then everyone (even those who don't have faith in the great reading) should be certain that it is a common noun.

An ?atheist Sunnism??? Never heard of such a fantastic invention. Must be hidden/fantasized/abstract and pre-quranic in its latest fashion. The Sunnies and Atheists will get a profound lightning shock from you in command to join faiths and become one as ?Sunnatheism?.

You are already joined by the common basis of your illogical arguments. Even from the few statements that Aladdin and you posted here, everyone can clearly see that atheist and Sunni missionaries share the same basic fallacious arguments.

You love quoting the word ?sectarianism? (as in Sunnies, Shias, Wahabies, Salafies, Ahmedias, Bahaiies, etc.), not knowing that you yourself along with some others have become one (Quranist or a God-Aloner/Quran-Aloner or a Progressive Muslim or a Reformed Muslim of 21st Century). And, ah yes, never to forget the absolute dainty sectarians, the 19ers (i.e. the Quranic mathematicians). To me, all sectarians come from the same ancient roots of paganism having different tastes and tales to tell.

So why do you have faith in those tales and base your arguments and conclusions about The God on them?

You mentioned that jinn means fantasy/imagination/abstract/hidden and people fantasized idols, therefore the stone blocks are called jinn blocks and then you want me to verify the hidden/fantasized with my eyes? I?m sure people can fantasize an unknown alien from Jupiter with ease and call it HoopDeLoop.

Aren't those blocks abstract (i.e. imagined) representation of the idols? If abstract/imagined = "jinn" then abstract blocks = "jinn" blocks. It is simple.

Then you claim that the word ?kaba? has never been found inscribed on those blocks, therefore they are never called Kaba Blocks, in-spite of numerous evidence provided.

What evidence? You provided ZERO evidence. If you consider the sectarian mythology evidence then you might as well believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.

But here?s the thing, is the word ?jinn? inscribed on those blocks to become jinn blocks and have you gotten any substantial evidence to back up your own claim from various ?authentic? sources in the manner I presented the Kaba Blocks and that you must present a ?pre-quranic? evidence? I just hope you are not fantasizing like the pagans.

There are numerous inscriptions as well as manuscripts referring to the blocks as representations of idols like Allat. The great reading hints that Allat is a "jinn". So one can see why the ancient Bedouins used the term "jinn block".

Holy Shmoly Macaroni. It ain?t gonna get any hilarious than this.

This is kind of up to you. If you continue to have blind faith in sectarian mythology and happily borrow Sunni missionary tactics then it's gonna, so... BEWARE! http//img100.imageshack.us/img100/8708/pumpkinti0.gif

Peace,

Ayman

[unknownuser]

What you and a few others here (especially Kyle) don?t seem to understand or rather forgetting that there are proper names and terms given/assigned to a body/thing which also carry a common meaning/noun.

This proper name argument is another perfect example of atheist Sunnism. This is the same exact tactic used by sectarians. Sectarians love to hide the truth behind meaningless proper names.

Certainly, as I mentioned earlier, all you sectarians of Islam come from the same boat, each using these same tactics upon the other. And btw, there is no such thing as ?meaningless proper names?. All proper names carry their meanings.

but that does not mean that idol stone blocks/slabs were not called Kaba and thus conclude that kaba enforcedly means base.

It is not my problem that you are not intellectual enough to know how to differentiate between common nouns and proper names.

It is easy to differentiate common nouns and proper names. Common nouns fit in the context. We can see that "base" fits in the context of 595 and 597.

The above is enough proof that it is a common noun. When you add to this the fact that there is not a single pre-quranic shred of evidence showing the name Kaaba to be associated with any such structures, then everyone (even those who don't have faith in the great reading) should be certain that it is a common noun.

You bring your problems unto yourself with ludicrous and circular illogical reasoning throughout your posts. As an analogy, Quran is Allah?s words because it says so.

The word ?base? does not address the proper contextual meaning to either 595 or 5.97 even if it just FITS in (as it has become your fantasized habit), and especially not according to historical facts. Both verses speak of cuboid structure, an idol house named Kaba. Historical evidence, ahadiths, religious and non-religious websites, encyclopedias, dictionaries and above all, from pre-quranic and post-quranic pagan dogmatic ceremonies held at Kaba in Mecca and in much the same exact manner as witnessed today, are all evidence on my side, not yours. All you have is ignorant fantasies to turn history around and make a mess out of it by whatever FITS in the context of verses.

Another silly reason you stated is to go ask the Arabs and see how they talk about kab as base of valley and kaba as base of shoe/heel. Well, certainly, that makes sense but only as common nouns used in those specific contexts. These same Arabs will also agree that Kaba is also the sacred house (a cuboid structure), a heritage no one on earth will forget. In my previous post, I gave examples of how Ahmed and Shireen can both be used as common as well as proper forms, including the example of salaat and how Quranists mess up their Allah?s words when they disregard history. In all actuality, Quran itself is history and supports my views even further.

An ?atheist Sunnism??? Never heard of such a fantastic invention. Must be hidden/fantasized/abstract and pre-quranic in its latest fashion. The Sunnies and Atheists will get a profound lightning shock from you in command to join faiths and become one as ?Sunnatheism?.

You are already joined by the common basis of your illogical arguments. Even from the few statements that Aladdin and you posted here, everyone can clearly see that atheist and Sunni missionaries share the same basic fallacious arguments.

Actually, everyone can see that you as a 21st century Islamic sectarian is trying hard to defy the historical Sunni (Arab) facts, simply because history is not on your side. Not even your Allah can wipe out history, what makes you think you can?

You love quoting the word ?sectarianism? (as in Sunnies, Shias, Wahabies, Salafies, Ahmedias, Bahaiies, etc.), not knowing that you yourself along with some others have become one (Quranist or a God-Aloner/Quran-Aloner or a Progressive Muslim or a Reformed Muslim of 21st Century). And, ah yes, never to forget the absolute dainty sectarians, the 19ers (i.e. the Quranic mathematicians). To me, all sectarians come from the same ancient roots of paganism having different tastes and tales to tell.

So why do you have faith in those tales and base your arguments and conclusions about The God on them?

You need to ask that question to yourself.

You mentioned that jinn means fantasy/imagination/abstract/hidden and people fantasized idols, therefore the stone blocks are called jinn blocks and then you want me to verify the hidden/fantasized with my eyes? I?m sure people can fantasize an unknown alien from Jupiter with ease and call it HoopDeLoop.

Aren't those blocks abstract (i.e. imagined) representation of the idols? If abstract/imagined = "jinn" then abstract blocks = "jinn" blocks. It is simple.

Certainly not! The blocks are not representations of idols but ARE idols themselves and were polydemic. Those pagan idol gods and goddesses were created in all shapes, sizes and forms, the beautiful and powerful ones were made with ?potter?s clay? (refined earth), ring your bells (humans are not made of clay). These kaba blocks as idols were given names such as Arihman, Hubal, Allat, Gabrail, Geb, Azazel, Damu, and thousands of others, along with their ?imagined/fantasized? attributes such ?the merciful?, ?the gracious?, the ?heavens?, ?the earth?, ?the sun?, the ?moon?, the ?evil?, ?rain?, ?thunder?, etc., etc., as seen here (and given previously)
http//www.palmyra.demon.co.uk/superstition/godsfestivals.htm
and here
http//www.mythome.org/MidEastconcord.html

Then you claim that the word ?kaba? has never been found inscribed on those blocks, therefore they are never called Kaba Blocks, in-spite of numerous evidence provided.

What evidence? You provided ZERO evidence. If you consider the sectarian mythology evidence then you might as well believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.

That is an example of your fantasized imaginations I?ve been talking about. It sure reflects on you.

But here?s the thing, is the word ?jinn? inscribed on those blocks to become jinn blocks and have you gotten any substantial evidence to back up your own claim from various ?authentic? sources in the manner I presented the Kaba Blocks and that you must present a ?pre-quranic? evidence? I just hope you are not fantasizing like the pagans.

There are numerous inscriptions as well as manuscripts referring to the blocks as representations of idols like Allat. The great reading hints that Allat is a "jinn". So one can see why the ancient Bedouins used the term "jinn block".

First you asked me to provide you with evidence of ?kaba? inscribed on those stone blocks, but when I challenged you to provide evidence of inscription of the word ?jinn? on those blocks, you start talking about inscriptions of the names of idols such as Allat. You cunningly and miserably twist around when confronted. This is so very typical your kinds and has been witnessed several times here on this forum alone. All you have is an inscription of Allat and Manat from the Smithsonian tombstone website to prove your itsy bitsy gutless claims, nothing else. You don?t believe in historical facts and events, and then claim to believe in Quranic fantasized history. What a hoot?

Holy Shmoly Macaroni. It ain?t gonna get any hilarious than this.

This is kind of up to you. If you continue to have blind faith in sectarian mythology and happily borrow Sunni missionary tactics then it's gonna, so... BEWARE!

The entire myth, mystic and magic of Quran is poisoned in your jugular vein. You have ZERO knowledge of what the Quran is built upon. Here?s a little exercise for you start reading and counting from Bism Allah Ariham Arihim and work your way through to the last word of the Quran, and discover thousands of pagan idol names mentioned in their attributed forms and sentences. Lets see what your finicky intellectual mind is made up of. This will also help out and pay your respect to the well-known articulated Persian and Arab poets.

http//img100.imageshack.us/img100/8708/pumpkinti0.gif

As far as your gracious symbol is concerned, fantasize your mythical idol Allah and ask Him why He threw down his partnered mythical Evil upon mankind on earth, and kept himself in hiding while pretentiously claiming that He is weee too close for your call (its all in the Quran).

[noble]

Danish dude
You always come into discussions to criticize.
Indulge us and tell us what you stand for, what is your way of life, your aspirations?
What do you think your motives are, your mission, your vision?
What do you think you would advise your children, youngsters, fellow beings?, particularly with your own actions...
What do you stand for? for yourself, your family, and the community you live in?
What are the positive contributions you think you can provide? and have provided...
What do you think will happen to you when you die?
And please no dodging... If you ignore, it means you are just a pityful trouble maker...
Peace out

[aladdin]

Salaam Danish,

Kabaa and Mecca predates Abraham read the Koran, read the Koran properly, it is all there.

Man is central to Christianity, and such there is no concept of any other higher intelligence in Christianity. In Islam jinn was created long, long before human. And, the human was nobody, not even mentioned for a long, long time. The world is about 400 billion years old, not 6000 years old as some claim. Read the Koran properly. The Koran talks about other higher intelligent beings beside humans, it talks about Big Bang! (BBC hardtalk in February 2006 with Penrose) and evolution. Read the Koran properly.

The root of Arabic is great but Arabic is very vast and the journey shouldn't stop at the root but should continue from there on.

It is time of Fitna again in Islam, trying to divide Sunni/Shia/Ibada..... BEWARE!

My friend Danish there is no further need and I will refer to you to the following post

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6969

Islam has alway survived and will always survive. In fact, this is my last post for this thread and many others too.

Mohamed

[savage_carrot]

Peace,

Once again I would request people to stick to the topic of discussion. Anything deviating from it, should be started in a new thread and please no repetitive posts saying the same thing too. This goes for whatever 'Sunni/Shia/Ibada' is, what Danish's thoughts are on life or that we must beware the shadows that lurk Please read the first post for the topic. Thank you all.

[noble]

Peace Sis, Ayman
Hi Danish
Thank you Sis for your dutiful modding...
Criticism is easy, craftmanship is hard (poor transliteration of the french saying "la critique est aisee mais l'art est difficile&quot.
Most believers on this site are I hope in agreement with the fact that Islam is a way of Life, and that The Quran is Guidance for us.
Now if someone comes bashing this around, I wish to know what they stand for, what is their alternative, because bashing things around is never productive, creates tensions and leads to flaming, and also who is benefitting ultimately, unless it is a case of anarchy and nihilistic self gratification and so should not be taken seriously and just considered hysterical ranting at something that hurts the ego...

[savage_carrot]

Peace bro noble,

I agree with you. I would hope this gets covered in another thread though so that we can see what the alternative is.

[aladdin]

Peace,

Once again I would request people to stick to the topic of discussion. Anything deviating from it, should be started in a new thread and please no repetitive posts saying the same thing too. This goes for whatever 'Sunni/Shia/Ibada' is, what Danish's thoughts are on life or that we must beware the shadows that lurk Please read the first post for the topic. Thank you all.

Salaam Danish,

I love and like your thoughts. Since this thread goes on and so and keeps talking about jinns. Here is what I found from the Holy Koran about jinns

The Ant Chapter number 27.

And before Solomon were marshaled his hosts, - of jinns and humans and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks. Verse 17.

At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said ?O? you ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it.? Verse 18.

So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said O? my Lord, my Sustainer! So order me that I may be grateful for Your favors, which you have bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please You And admit me, by Your Grace, to the ranks of Your righteous servants.? Verse 19. Smile

Ameen

Danish also check out the translation of Rashad Khalifa from this post

http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/

Hope this is helpful my friend.

Mohamed

[unknownuser]

Danish dude
You always come into discussions to criticize.
Indulge us and tell us what you stand for, what is your way of life, your aspirations?
What do you think your motives are, your mission, your vision?
What do you think you would advise your children, youngsters, fellow beings?, particularly with your own actions...
What do you stand for? for yourself, your family, and the community you live in?
What are the positive contributions you think you can provide? and have provided...
What do you think will happen to you when you die?
And please no dodging... If you ignore, it means you are just a pityful trouble maker...
Peace out

Peace Sis, Ayman
Hi Danish
Thank you Sis for your dutiful modding...
Criticism is easy, craftmanship is hard (poor transliteration of the french saying "la critique est aisee mais l'art est difficile&quot.
Most believers on this site are I hope in agreement with the fact that Islam is a way of Life, and that The Quran is Guidance for us.
Now if someone comes bashing this around, I wish to know what they stand for, what is their alternative, because bashing things around is never productive, creates tensions and leads to flaming, and also who is benefitting ultimately, unless it is a case of anarchy and nihilistic self gratification and so should not be taken seriously and just considered hysterical ranting at something that hurts the ego...

Your posts are off-topic and doesn't need response to create another flare on this thread. Please either spare yourself, myself and others from antagonizing or have the decency and courage to participate in reception.

[noble]

I started a new thread http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6994.0
as wisely advised by Sis savage_carrot
peace out
Noble

[warner]

Peace

I quote here from Layth?s article ?WHERE WAS MOHAMMED?? from the FM main page, which gives the definition of the word Kaaba from the use of the word in the Quraan. I hope this will be helpful.
(Brother Layth, Hope you will excuse me for quoting you without prior permission)

? The Kaaba ? Jerusalem;

?God has made the Kaaba to be the Restricted Sanctuary, to enforce for the people, and for the restricted month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you know that God knows what is in heavens and what is in Earth, and that God is aware of all things.? (The Message 597)

We are told that the word ?Kaaba? means a ?cube shape? and that the site in Mecca has been constructed in accordance with this design requirement.
However, the meaning of ?cube? associated to this word has no basis in the Scripture itself nor even to the Arabic language still in use today (the word for cube is mu?ka?ab, not kaaba or kaab).

The word ?Kaab/Kaaba? are associated in Arabic to any feature that is protruding, such as the bones to the side of the ankles as can be seen below

?O you who believe, if you rise to attend the contact-method, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles (Kaabain); and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.?
(The Message 56)

Thus, any construct, regardless of its shape can be called a ?Kaaba? as long as it stands out from the plain.What we need to ask to be more detailed is ?are there any special features that are protruding at the site of the temple of Mecca or Jerusalem that would give it the description of being a Kaaba?.

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh2.htm

[ayman]

Peace Danish,

Certainly, as I mentioned earlier, all you sectarians of Islam come from the same boat, each using these same tactics upon the other. And btw, there is no such thing as ?meaningless proper names?. All proper names carry their meanings.

Again, it is not my problem that you are not intellectual enough to know that proper names are meaningless labels that don't convey the truth. For example, I think that Danish in Hindi means "day god" and in English means "someone from Denmark". Maybe your name came from some third language. In all three cases, you are probably not this name so this proper name is just a meaningless label that doesn't convey the truth about you. This is basic linguistics. So please get over your arrogance and learn the basics before parading your ignorance on this forum and stop using the sectarian Kaaba proper name argument.

Actually, everyone can see that you as a 21st century Islamic sectarian is trying hard to defy the historical Sunni (Arab) facts

The above statement clearly and concisely shows your beliefs. So there is no need for me to waste everyone's time addressing what I had already addressed and straying off topic as you and other dogmatic missionaries like to do. Again, you clearly demonstrate that the root cause of your beliefs is your blind faith in the Sunni mythology. Like Sunnis, you blindly take such myths as facts and base your beliefs on them.

At any rate, we will all die sooner or later and then you will know if you were right to have faith in Sunni mythology or not. Meanwhile, what are you hoping to gain by wasting whatever time you have left on spewing your bitterness around? What are you bitter at? Why such missionary zeal? You have become nothing more than a dogmatic atheist Sunni missionary. Is this how you want to spend the rest of your life or do you want to spend it in peace?

I hope you find peacefulness.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace Warner,

I quote here from Layth?s article ?WHERE WAS MOHAMMED?? from the FM main page, which gives the definition of the word Kaaba from the use of the word in the Quraan. I hope this will be helpful.
(Brother Layth, Hope you will excuse me for quoting you without prior permission)
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh2.htm

The article is mistaken. The word "ka3b" doesn't mean ankle it means heel. Hence, in Classical Arabic the term "ak3ab alrajul" means "the man walked faster on his heels" NOT "the man walked faster on his ankles". So according to 56, we should wash our feet to the heels (the base of the entire leg).

Peace,

Ayman

[unknownuser]

..proper names are meaningless labels that don't convey the truth. For example, I think that Danish in Hindi means "day god" and in English means "someone from Denmark". Maybe your name came from some third language. In all three cases, you are probably not this name so this proper name is just a meaningless label that doesn't convey the truth about you. This is basic linguistics.

Quite creative, Ayman. Give three examples and think that they are probably not the same and conclude your reason for being meaningless labels. Please stop wanking stuff like that. The English meaning you gave is not a meaning. For example, Ayman is from Middle-East and therefore Ayman means middle-east.

Ayman is a proper name unique to you as a HUMAN and is your identity that explains yourself for whatever YOU are. Its common form means 'lucky' or 'right' and does not explain you because its a generalized term. In the same manner, Kaba is an identity given to a cuboid structure representing godly idols. Its common form means base along with other connotations and is a generalized term.

Should I start calling you lucky and insist that Ayman is not a proper identity and is meaningless.

So please get over your arrogance and learn the basics before parading your ignorance on this forum and stop using the sectarian Kaaba proper name argument.

The above statement clearly and concisely shows your beliefs. So there is no need for me to waste everyone's time addressing what I had already addressed and straying off topic as you and other dogmatic missionaries like to do. Again, you clearly demonstrate that the root cause of your beliefs is your blind faith in the Sunni mythology. Like Sunnis, you blindly take such myths as facts and base your beliefs on them.

At any rate, we will all die sooner or later and then you will know if you were right to have faith in Sunni mythology or not. Meanwhile, what are you hoping to gain by wasting whatever time you have left on spewing your bitterness around? What are you bitter at? Why such missionary zeal? You have become nothing more than a dogmatic atheist Sunni missionary. Is this how you want to spend the rest of your life or do you want to spend it in peace?

All the above is mystical filth. You sound frustrated and miserable, and fail to support any of your claims logically.