How Did it Come to This? (Part 1)
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What you and a few others here (especially Kyle) don?t seem to understand or rather forgetting that there are proper names and terms given/assigned to a body/thing which also carry a common meaning/noun.
This proper name argument is another perfect example of atheist Sunnism. This is the same exact tactic used by sectarians. Sectarians love to hide the truth behind meaningless proper names.
Certainly, as I mentioned earlier, all you sectarians of Islam come from the same boat, each using these same tactics upon the other. And btw, there is no such thing as ?meaningless proper names?. All proper names carry their meanings.
but that does not mean that idol stone blocks/slabs were not called Kaba and thus conclude that kaba enforcedly means base.
It is not my problem that you are not intellectual enough to know how to differentiate between common nouns and proper names.
It is easy to differentiate common nouns and proper names. Common nouns fit in the context. We can see that "base" fits in the context of 595 and 597.
The above is enough proof that it is a common noun. When you add to this the fact that there is not a single pre-quranic shred of evidence showing the name Kaaba to be associated with any such structures, then everyone (even those who don't have faith in the great reading) should be certain that it is a common noun.
You bring your problems unto yourself with ludicrous and circular illogical reasoning throughout your posts. As an analogy, Quran is Allah?s words because it says so.
The word ?base? does not address the proper contextual meaning to either 595 or 5.97 even if it just FITS in (as it has become your fantasized habit), and especially not according to historical facts. Both verses speak of cuboid structure, an idol house named Kaba. Historical evidence, ahadiths, religious and non-religious websites, encyclopedias, dictionaries and above all, from pre-quranic and post-quranic pagan dogmatic ceremonies held at Kaba in Mecca and in much the same exact manner as witnessed today, are all evidence on my side, not yours. All you have is ignorant fantasies to turn history around and make a mess out of it by whatever FITS in the context of verses.
Another silly reason you stated is to go ask the Arabs and see how they talk about kab as base of valley and kaba as base of shoe/heel. Well, certainly, that makes sense but only as common nouns used in those specific contexts. These same Arabs will also agree that Kaba is also the sacred house (a cuboid structure), a heritage no one on earth will forget. In my previous post, I gave examples of how Ahmed and Shireen can both be used as common as well as proper forms, including the example of salaat and how Quranists mess up their Allah?s words when they disregard history. In all actuality, Quran itself is history and supports my views even further.
An ?atheist Sunnism??? Never heard of such a fantastic invention. Must be hidden/fantasized/abstract and pre-quranic in its latest fashion. The Sunnies and Atheists will get a profound lightning shock from you in command to join faiths and become one as ?Sunnatheism?.
You are already joined by the common basis of your illogical arguments. Even from the few statements that Aladdin and you posted here, everyone can clearly see that atheist and Sunni missionaries share the same basic fallacious arguments.
Actually, everyone can see that you as a 21st century Islamic sectarian is trying hard to defy the historical Sunni (Arab) facts, simply because history is not on your side. Not even your Allah can wipe out history, what makes you think you can?
You love quoting the word ?sectarianism? (as in Sunnies, Shias, Wahabies, Salafies, Ahmedias, Bahaiies, etc.), not knowing that you yourself along with some others have become one (Quranist or a God-Aloner/Quran-Aloner or a Progressive Muslim or a Reformed Muslim of 21st Century). And, ah yes, never to forget the absolute dainty sectarians, the 19ers (i.e. the Quranic mathematicians). To me, all sectarians come from the same ancient roots of paganism having different tastes and tales to tell.
So why do you have faith in those tales and base your arguments and conclusions about The God on them?
You need to ask that question to yourself.
You mentioned that jinn means fantasy/imagination/abstract/hidden and people fantasized idols, therefore the stone blocks are called jinn blocks and then you want me to verify the hidden/fantasized with my eyes? I?m sure people can fantasize an unknown alien from Jupiter with ease and call it HoopDeLoop.
Aren't those blocks abstract (i.e. imagined) representation of the idols? If abstract/imagined = "jinn" then abstract blocks = "jinn" blocks. It is simple.
Certainly not! The blocks are not representations of idols but ARE idols themselves and were polydemic. Those pagan idol gods and goddesses were created in all shapes, sizes and forms, the beautiful and powerful ones were made with ?potter?s clay? (refined earth), ring your bells (humans are not made of clay). These kaba blocks as idols were given names such as Arihman, Hubal, Allat, Gabrail, Geb, Azazel, Damu, and thousands of others, along with their ?imagined/fantasized? attributes such ?the merciful?, ?the gracious?, the ?heavens?, ?the earth?, ?the sun?, the ?moon?, the ?evil?, ?rain?, ?thunder?, etc., etc., as seen here (and given previously)
http//www.palmyra.demon.co.uk/superstition/godsfestivals.htm
and here
http//www.mythome.org/MidEastconcord.htmlThen you claim that the word ?kaba? has never been found inscribed on those blocks, therefore they are never called Kaba Blocks, in-spite of numerous evidence provided.
What evidence? You provided ZERO evidence. If you consider the sectarian mythology evidence then you might as well believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.
That is an example of your fantasized imaginations I?ve been talking about. It sure reflects on you.
But here?s the thing, is the word ?jinn? inscribed on those blocks to become jinn blocks and have you gotten any substantial evidence to back up your own claim from various ?authentic? sources in the manner I presented the Kaba Blocks and that you must present a ?pre-quranic? evidence? I just hope you are not fantasizing like the pagans.
There are numerous inscriptions as well as manuscripts referring to the blocks as representations of idols like Allat. The great reading hints that Allat is a "jinn". So one can see why the ancient Bedouins used the term "jinn block".
First you asked me to provide you with evidence of ?kaba? inscribed on those stone blocks, but when I challenged you to provide evidence of inscription of the word ?jinn? on those blocks, you start talking about inscriptions of the names of idols such as Allat. You cunningly and miserably twist around when confronted. This is so very typical your kinds and has been witnessed several times here on this forum alone. All you have is an inscription of Allat and Manat from the Smithsonian tombstone website to prove your itsy bitsy gutless claims, nothing else. You don?t believe in historical facts and events, and then claim to believe in Quranic fantasized history. What a hoot?
Holy Shmoly Macaroni. It ain?t gonna get any hilarious than this.
This is kind of up to you. If you continue to have blind faith in sectarian mythology and happily borrow Sunni missionary tactics then it's gonna, so... BEWARE!
The entire myth, mystic and magic of Quran is poisoned in your jugular vein. You have ZERO knowledge of what the Quran is built upon. Here?s a little exercise for you start reading and counting from Bism Allah Ariham Arihim and work your way through to the last word of the Quran, and discover thousands of pagan idol names mentioned in their attributed forms and sentences. Lets see what your finicky intellectual mind is made up of. This will also help out and pay your respect to the well-known articulated Persian and Arab poets.
http//img100.imageshack.us/img100/8708/pumpkinti0.gif
As far as your gracious symbol is concerned, fantasize your mythical idol Allah and ask Him why He threw down his partnered mythical Evil upon mankind on earth, and kept himself in hiding while pretentiously claiming that He is weee too close for your call (its all in the Quran).
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Danish dude
You always come into discussions to criticize.
Indulge us and tell us what you stand for, what is your way of life, your aspirations?
What do you think your motives are, your mission, your vision?
What do you think you would advise your children, youngsters, fellow beings?, particularly with your own actions...
What do you stand for? for yourself, your family, and the community you live in?
What are the positive contributions you think you can provide? and have provided...
What do you think will happen to you when you die?
And please no dodging... If you ignore, it means you are just a pityful trouble maker...
Peace out -
Salaam Danish,
Kabaa and Mecca predates Abraham read the Koran, read the Koran properly, it is all there.
Man is central to Christianity, and such there is no concept of any other higher intelligence in Christianity. In Islam jinn was created long, long before human. And, the human was nobody, not even mentioned for a long, long time. The world is about 400 billion years old, not 6000 years old as some claim. Read the Koran properly. The Koran talks about other higher intelligent beings beside humans, it talks about Big Bang! (BBC hardtalk in February 2006 with Penrose) and evolution. Read the Koran properly.
The root of Arabic is great but Arabic is very vast and the journey shouldn't stop at the root but should continue from there on.
It is time of Fitna again in Islam, trying to divide Sunni/Shia/Ibada..... BEWARE!
My friend Danish there is no further need and I will refer to you to the following post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6969
Islam has alway survived and will always survive. In fact, this is my last post for this thread and many others too.
Mohamed
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Peace,
Once again I would request people to stick to the topic of discussion. Anything deviating from it, should be started in a new thread and please no repetitive posts saying the same thing too. This goes for whatever 'Sunni/Shia/Ibada' is, what Danish's thoughts are on life or that we must beware the shadows that lurk Please read the first post for the topic. Thank you all.
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Peace Sis, Ayman
Hi Danish
Thank you Sis for your dutiful modding...
Criticism is easy, craftmanship is hard (poor transliteration of the french saying "la critique est aisee mais l'art est difficile".
Most believers on this site are I hope in agreement with the fact that Islam is a way of Life, and that The Quran is Guidance for us.
Now if someone comes bashing this around, I wish to know what they stand for, what is their alternative, because bashing things around is never productive, creates tensions and leads to flaming, and also who is benefitting ultimately, unless it is a case of anarchy and nihilistic self gratification and so should not be taken seriously and just considered hysterical ranting at something that hurts the ego... -
Peace bro noble,
I agree with you. I would hope this gets covered in another thread though so that we can see what the alternative is.
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Peace,
Once again I would request people to stick to the topic of discussion. Anything deviating from it, should be started in a new thread and please no repetitive posts saying the same thing too. This goes for whatever 'Sunni/Shia/Ibada' is, what Danish's thoughts are on life or that we must beware the shadows that lurk Please read the first post for the topic. Thank you all.
Salaam Danish,
I love and like your thoughts. Since this thread goes on and so and keeps talking about jinns. Here is what I found from the Holy Koran about jinns
The Ant Chapter number 27.
And before Solomon were marshaled his hosts, - of jinns and humans and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks. Verse 17.
At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said ?O? you ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it.? Verse 18.
So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said O? my Lord, my Sustainer! So order me that I may be grateful for Your favors, which you have bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please You And admit me, by Your Grace, to the ranks of Your righteous servants.? Verse 19. Smile
Ameen
Danish also check out the translation of Rashad Khalifa from this post
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/
Hope this is helpful my friend.
Mohamed
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Danish dude
You always come into discussions to criticize.
Indulge us and tell us what you stand for, what is your way of life, your aspirations?
What do you think your motives are, your mission, your vision?
What do you think you would advise your children, youngsters, fellow beings?, particularly with your own actions...
What do you stand for? for yourself, your family, and the community you live in?
What are the positive contributions you think you can provide? and have provided...
What do you think will happen to you when you die?
And please no dodging... If you ignore, it means you are just a pityful trouble maker...
Peace outPeace Sis, Ayman
Hi Danish
Thank you Sis for your dutiful modding...
Criticism is easy, craftmanship is hard (poor transliteration of the french saying "la critique est aisee mais l'art est difficile".
Most believers on this site are I hope in agreement with the fact that Islam is a way of Life, and that The Quran is Guidance for us.
Now if someone comes bashing this around, I wish to know what they stand for, what is their alternative, because bashing things around is never productive, creates tensions and leads to flaming, and also who is benefitting ultimately, unless it is a case of anarchy and nihilistic self gratification and so should not be taken seriously and just considered hysterical ranting at something that hurts the ego...Your posts are off-topic and doesn't need response to create another flare on this thread. Please either spare yourself, myself and others from antagonizing or have the decency and courage to participate in reception.
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Peace
I quote here from Layth?s article ?WHERE WAS MOHAMMED?? from the FM main page, which gives the definition of the word Kaaba from the use of the word in the Quraan. I hope this will be helpful.
(Brother Layth, Hope you will excuse me for quoting you without prior permission)? The Kaaba ? Jerusalem;
?God has made the Kaaba to be the Restricted Sanctuary, to enforce for the people, and for the restricted month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you know that God knows what is in heavens and what is in Earth, and that God is aware of all things.? (The Message 597)
We are told that the word ?Kaaba? means a ?cube shape? and that the site in Mecca has been constructed in accordance with this design requirement.
However, the meaning of ?cube? associated to this word has no basis in the Scripture itself nor even to the Arabic language still in use today (the word for cube is mu?ka?ab, not kaaba or kaab).The word ?Kaab/Kaaba? are associated in Arabic to any feature that is protruding, such as the bones to the side of the ankles as can be seen below
?O you who believe, if you rise to attend the contact-method, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles (Kaabain); and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.?
(The Message 56)Thus, any construct, regardless of its shape can be called a ?Kaaba? as long as it stands out from the plain.What we need to ask to be more detailed is ?are there any special features that are protruding at the site of the temple of Mecca or Jerusalem that would give it the description of being a Kaaba?.
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh2.htm
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Peace Danish,
Certainly, as I mentioned earlier, all you sectarians of Islam come from the same boat, each using these same tactics upon the other. And btw, there is no such thing as ?meaningless proper names?. All proper names carry their meanings.
Again, it is not my problem that you are not intellectual enough to know that proper names are meaningless labels that don't convey the truth. For example, I think that Danish in Hindi means "day god" and in English means "someone from Denmark". Maybe your name came from some third language. In all three cases, you are probably not this name so this proper name is just a meaningless label that doesn't convey the truth about you. This is basic linguistics. So please get over your arrogance and learn the basics before parading your ignorance on this forum and stop using the sectarian Kaaba proper name argument.
Actually, everyone can see that you as a 21st century Islamic sectarian is trying hard to defy the historical Sunni (Arab) facts
The above statement clearly and concisely shows your beliefs. So there is no need for me to waste everyone's time addressing what I had already addressed and straying off topic as you and other dogmatic missionaries like to do. Again, you clearly demonstrate that the root cause of your beliefs is your blind faith in the Sunni mythology. Like Sunnis, you blindly take such myths as facts and base your beliefs on them.
At any rate, we will all die sooner or later and then you will know if you were right to have faith in Sunni mythology or not. Meanwhile, what are you hoping to gain by wasting whatever time you have left on spewing your bitterness around? What are you bitter at? Why such missionary zeal? You have become nothing more than a dogmatic atheist Sunni missionary. Is this how you want to spend the rest of your life or do you want to spend it in peace?
I hope you find peacefulness.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Warner,
I quote here from Layth?s article ?WHERE WAS MOHAMMED?? from the FM main page, which gives the definition of the word Kaaba from the use of the word in the Quraan. I hope this will be helpful.
(Brother Layth, Hope you will excuse me for quoting you without prior permission)
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh2.htmThe article is mistaken. The word "ka3b" doesn't mean ankle it means heel. Hence, in Classical Arabic the term "ak3ab alrajul" means "the man walked faster on his heels" NOT "the man walked faster on his ankles". So according to 56, we should wash our feet to the heels (the base of the entire leg).
Peace,
Ayman
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..proper names are meaningless labels that don't convey the truth. For example, I think that Danish in Hindi means "day god" and in English means "someone from Denmark". Maybe your name came from some third language. In all three cases, you are probably not this name so this proper name is just a meaningless label that doesn't convey the truth about you. This is basic linguistics.
Quite creative, Ayman. Give three examples and think that they are probably not the same and conclude your reason for being meaningless labels. Please stop wanking stuff like that. The English meaning you gave is not a meaning. For example, Ayman is from Middle-East and therefore Ayman means middle-east.
Ayman is a proper name unique to you as a HUMAN and is your identity that explains yourself for whatever YOU are. Its common form means 'lucky' or 'right' and does not explain you because its a generalized term. In the same manner, Kaba is an identity given to a cuboid structure representing godly idols. Its common form means base along with other connotations and is a generalized term.
Should I start calling you lucky and insist that Ayman is not a proper identity and is meaningless.
So please get over your arrogance and learn the basics before parading your ignorance on this forum and stop using the sectarian Kaaba proper name argument.
The above statement clearly and concisely shows your beliefs. So there is no need for me to waste everyone's time addressing what I had already addressed and straying off topic as you and other dogmatic missionaries like to do. Again, you clearly demonstrate that the root cause of your beliefs is your blind faith in the Sunni mythology. Like Sunnis, you blindly take such myths as facts and base your beliefs on them.
At any rate, we will all die sooner or later and then you will know if you were right to have faith in Sunni mythology or not. Meanwhile, what are you hoping to gain by wasting whatever time you have left on spewing your bitterness around? What are you bitter at? Why such missionary zeal? You have become nothing more than a dogmatic atheist Sunni missionary. Is this how you want to spend the rest of your life or do you want to spend it in peace?
All the above is mystical filth. You sound frustrated and miserable, and fail to support any of your claims logically.
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Hi bro Danish,
According to your theory, assuming I understood it correctly, If my name explained what I am, I should be charged for DUI whenever I start driving, even though I certainly don't feel drunk.
Additionally, my grand-grand-father named me after his favourite actor, and not because I was screaming of pain from a hang-over when I was born.
*My name comes from the root of "To Drink", according to behindthename.com
Nadeem
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Tbh Danish, I don't understand why you're sticking to the Kaba as how it's portrayed in 'historical sunni facts' when a month back or so you said you think Aidid Safar has the best interpretation here. Why then does he have the best interpretation since he is off course from 'historical sunni facts' as well? Peace
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Peace Nadeem,
According to your theory, assuming I understood it correctly, If my name explained what I am, I should be charged for DUI whenever I start driving, even though I certainly don't feel drunk.
Additionally, my grand-grand-father named me after his favourite actor, and not because I was screaming of pain from a hang-over when I was born.
*My name comes from the root of "To Drink", according to behindthename.com
Thank you for the excellent example that illustrates how proper names are meaningless labels that don't convey the truth.
In the same way that your great-grand-father named you, sectarians named their idol after the common noun "kaaba"/base in the great reading. They then hid the true meaning of 595 and 597 behind the meaningless proper name. This is why all sectarian translators don't translate it. They know that the common meaning when translated doesn't fit the object that they idolize. If they translate it then people will see this truth.
Peace,
Ayman
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Hi bro Danish,
According to your theory, assuming I understood it correctly, If my name explained what I am, I should be charged for DUI whenever I start driving, even though I certainly don't feel drunk.
Additionally, my grand-grand-father named me after his favourite actor, and not because I was screaming of pain from a hang-over when I was born.
*My name comes from the root of "To Drink", according to behindthename.com
Nadeem
I am afraid you entirely misunderstood, please re-read my post.
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Tbh Danish, I don't understand why you're sticking to the Kaba as how it's portrayed in 'historical sunni facts' when a month back or so you said you think Aidid Safar has the best interpretation here. Why then does he have the best interpretation since he is off course from 'historical sunni facts' as well? Peace
Aidid's interpretation in comparison to other translations, then yes. Just becuase I liked his translation better than others doesn't overide the rule of agreement in its entirety. Did you read the first line, btw?
Edit missed the word 'read'.
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In the same way that your great-grand-father named you, sectarians named their idol after the common noun "kaaba"/base in the great reading. They then hid the true meaning of 595 and 597 behind the meaningless proper name. This is why all sectarian translators don't translate it. They know that the common meaning when translated doesn't fit the object that they idolize. If they translate it then people will see this truth.
Okay, fair enough then, present your proof so that we can all verify and I shall agree, period?
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Aidid interpretation in comparison to other translations, then yes. Just becuase I liked his translation better than others doesn't overide the rule of agreement in its entirety. Did you the first line, btw?
Just trying to understand what was the basis of liking his translations as his translation is poles apart from a traditional translation. If you think the 'traditional sunni historical facts' understanding about the Kaaba et al is correct, then his translation would be one of the worst translations around, I would think or in other words...If the traditional sunni historical sunni facts are thought to be correct, one would think that they would like a traditional translation that keeps that integrity instead of eschewing it. Carry on the discussion please )
Peace
Edit, after user edited their post
Which first line are you referring to?