My last post on FM
-
Peace
His behaviour and way to adresss other people got him banned. I wont go into detail, as he is not here to defend himself. The last thing Islam needs are more selfrightious mullahs. Nomatter if it is Quran alone or not.
-
salaam, everyone,
from my perspective, Mr. Ahmed baghat seemed a little on the "traditional" side. (nothing wrong with practicing and setting up an example for others but something wrong when you refute others with a mind of injustice and arrogant assertiveness.)
i hate the idea of calling people kafirs! it is absurd and illogical because your insults has no influence on whether i can breath or not. if Ahmed called someone i know "kafir" he had the right to be banned. but what hot button issue made him react to this level? only Allah has the full use and power to label kafir, otherwise from the perspective of Allah, it is meaningless because we do not decide which chemicals combine with which, it is Allah that decides!
peace, rifat
-
Peace Ahmed,
Good job with the new website.You shouldn't have left. I can't say that some of the comments you posted were fine, but we will miss the good points you had to add to the discussions.
I know that it hurts when someone "attacks" what we believe is true. But we have to realize that they too strongly believe in what they believe.
We cannot assume to know everything. We cannot act arrogantly. Act like we are never wrong. Only God knows for sure.
I asked Nabster if he thought that he was ever wrong. And he never answered that question. That, to me, is utter arrogance. And I have seen you act arrogantly as well.
So I'll ask you this question, Ahmed, can you ever be wrong? -
Peace mr. humble,
i hate the idea of calling people kafirs! it is absurd and illogical because your insults has no influence on whether i can breath or not.
What you call absurd and illogical is EXACTLY what Allah commands us to do, which basically means your statement above is in plain contradictions with the revelations of Allah. In case you have not realized that, please read quran
1091 Say, "O you disbelievers.
-
peace
but we must call people disbelievers if we have proof that they did something wrong. None of the members who are being called "kafir" and what not have done nothing wrong. Calling people disbelievers or rejectors because they don't agree with you is immature.
If I show you a blue pen, and you deny that it is blue without a good reason, then I can treat you as a rejector. Otherwise, I have no right to treat you any different from anyone else or describe you as a disbeliever.
If we start calling people "kafir" based on interpretations of a book, then that's the end of free minds as we know it. -
Peace Andy,
What you call absurd and illogical is EXACTLY what Allah commands us to do, which basically means your statement above is in plain contradictions with the revelations of Allah. In case you have not realized that, please read quran
1091 Say, "O you disbelievers.
The kafir must be clearly identified as one who has seen and understands the guidance as being from God and then chooses to reject it or hide it. Unless someone outright confesses to such a position, how can you possibly identify a kafir?
1071-7
Do you know who rejects the system?
It is the one who mistreats the orphans.
And does not encourage the feeding of the poor.
So woe to those who reach out.
But who are totally heedless of their salat.
They only want to be seen.
And they deter from helping others.That's quite a label to put on someone.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
Peace Andy,
The kafir must be clearly identified as one who has seen and understands the guidance as being from God and then chooses to reject it or hide it.
Agree ...my point is calling kafir is neither absurd nor illogical because that is direct command from Allah.
Unless someone outright confesses to such a position, how can you possibly identify a kafir?
Unless you are Allah, then you cannot know what is inside someone's heart. I fully understand that. But you have also to understand that no kafir will say that they are kafir. They don't even realize it. Take a look at sunni and shia, they are the ones who reject quran but they call me (or us?) kafir. I am not saying that all sunni and shia are kafir (indeed by default I always consider them muslims). I am just trying to give illustration that kafirun don't realize that they are kafir.
-
salaam andy,
Peace mr. humble,
What you call absurd and illogical is EXACTLY what Allah commands us to do, which basically means your statement above is in plain contradictions with the revelations of Allah. In case you have not realized that, please read quran1091 Say, "O you disbelievers.
it is one story when allah calls someone/group "kafir", but it is indeed another story when i/we label someone "kafir" for social punidhment. andy, i have not found one verse in the quran in which GOD orders us to label someone kafir. just because there is a variation of faith amongst us, that doesn't mean we jump to conclusions whether he/she/group is/are a kafir or not. it is allah who created us and he shall be the one to punish us.
ch 109
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1091 Say "O rejecters,"
1092 "I do not serve what you serve,"
1093 "Nor do you serve what I serve,"
1094 "Nor will I serve what you serve,"
1095 "Nor will you serve what I serve,"
1096 "To you is your system, and to me is mine."(free-minds translation)
in what part of this chapter Allah tells us to call/label someone "kafir". but however, God encourages us to seperate and distinguish ourselves from the evil acts commited by people. you can identify who serves god and who doesn't. but there are different degrees to "kufr/disobeying/disbelieving" i strongly believe no one has access to that inner knowledge of one's soul except allah. our inner conscience is just a mere reflection of our perception of existence. my final point is it is allah who decides who is kafir or not, not us!
peace, rifat
-
Salaam mr. humble,
salaam andy,
it is one story when allah calls someone/group "kafir", but it is indeed another story when i/we label someone "kafir" for social punidhment.
Please read and ponder the verse carefully.
1091 Say "O rejecters,"
It is NOT Allah calls someone/group kafir. It is the command from Allah to call kafir as kafir (the word "say" makes the difference).
andy, i have not found one verse in the quran in which GOD orders us to label someone kafir.
How can you say that mr. humble? Please read and ponder the verse again. Pay attention to the word "Say".
just because there is a variation of faith amongst us, that doesn't mean we jump to conclusions whether he/she/group is/are a kafir or not. it is allah who created us and he shall be the one to punish us.
There is a difference between variations among believers and kafirun. This is the one you have to be able to grasp. If you cannot grasp the difference, how can you obey the command of Allah to call kafir those who are kafir? Did the messenger never call kafir?
ch 109
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1091 Say "O rejecters,"
1092 "I do not serve what you serve,"
1093 "Nor do you serve what I serve,"
1094 "Nor will I serve what you serve,"
1095 "Nor will you serve what I serve,"
1096 "To you is your system, and to me is mine."(free-minds translation)
in what part of this chapter Allah tells us to call/label someone "kafir". but however, God encourages us to seperate and distinguish ourselves from the evil acts commited by people. you can identify who serves god and who doesn't. but there are different degrees to "kufr/disobeying/disbelieving" i strongly believe no one has access to that inner knowledge of one's soul except allah. our inner conscience is just a mere reflection of our perception of existence. my final point is it is allah who decides who is kafir or not, not us!
peace, rifat
Please read my post to Tay. I have stated clearly that unless you are Allah you cannot know what is inside someone's heart. I also agree that Allah is the one who judges. But is that an excuse not to obey the command of Allah? Do you think Allah makes mistakes when He commands us to call kafir while He is the one who knows who really kafirun are?
Wassalam,
andy -
So Andy, what are your personal criterions for knowing a kafir?
Is it that they disagree with your personal interpretations, and have their own e.g? Does that give you the right to call people kafir, disagreement?I would have no reservations calling Bush a kafir, his behaviour exposes him. But someone who search for God in a different way than me, i wouldnt dare,because they are still doing or intending what is right, even if i may disagree with their view. So in this scenario, im elevating myself to God by judgin their heart as opposed to their behaviour.
Just a thought
-
Peace all,
Phoenix, I got the 5th start after completing 16 grueling weeks of M.B.C *Moderator Boot Camp" at an undisclosed location off the coast of China.
Andy, I understand your angle but disagree with your implied conclusion. If we both agree that kafirun can't be identified simply by their choosing to reject God's guidance, then the "khul" in 109 becomes moot in this regard. Surah 107 describes kafir behavior, ie, neglecting the orphans and poor, and deterring others from helping. This, again, is a decided behavior. These are the people that should be left to their own gods, their own religions. So, in essence, it is certainly absurd and illogical to call anyone a kafir on a forum unless that person outwardly expresses that he/she has understood God's guidance and chose to reject it, chose not to help the poor and orphans, and chose to deter others from helping.
Peace,
Tay -
;D rotfl
-
So Andy, what are your personal criterions for knowing a kafir?
Is it that they disagree with your personal interpretations, and have their own e.g? Does that give you the right to call people kafir, disagreement?To Magi and possibly other forum members who missunderstand my post
Did I ever encourage to call kafir those who have different understanding of quran?Please read my post carefully what I was addressing here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7019.msg106233#msg106233
-
Peace Tay,
Andy, I understand your angle but disagree with your implied conclusion. If we both agree that kafirun can't be identified simply by their choosing to reject God's guidance, then the "khul" in 109 becomes moot in this regard. Surah 107 describes kafir behavior, ie, neglecting the orphans and poor, and deterring others from helping. This, again, is a decided behavior. These are the people that should be left to their own gods, their own religions.
If you read quran carefully, there are many criterions of kafir. Actually, I was not addressing this topic (criterions of kafir), instead I was addressing the claim that calling kafir is absurd and illogical. Such claim is in direct contradiction with quran since calling kafir is direct command from Allah.
Having said that, let's take an example of verse 517
517 Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is the Messiah the son of Mary." Say "Who has any power against God if He had wanted to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother, and all who are on Earth!" And to God is the sovereignty of heavens and Earth and all that is in-between; He creates what He pleases. God is capable of all things.
As we all can read, verse 517 gives a criteria of kafir, which is believing that Jesus is God. Even in such a case, I won't call my christian friend kafir before proper explanation, talks, discussion, and da'wa have been done. Just because christians worship Jesus doesn't necessarily mean they are kafirun because it could be that they are not aware of the truth.
So, in essence, it is certainly absurd and illogical to call anyone a kafir on a forum unless that person outwardly expresses that he/she has understood God's guidance and chose to reject it, chose not to help the poor and orphans, and chose to deter others from helping.
Please read the example above. I just want to add yet another criteria of kafir Those who don't judge with what Allah has revealed
544 We have sent down the Torah, in it is guidance and a light; the prophets who have surrendered judged with it for those who are Jews, as well as the Rabbis, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of God's Scripture, and they were witness over. So do not fear the people but fear Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
-
Peace Andy and all
The word "kafar" means to conceal, cover. In the Qur'aan mainly those who cover the truth they know.
The sura you mentioned does not command you to call a kafer kafer. The main point of the surat is not to do as they do, even if they believe in God but want to conceal the truth about anything.For example if your boss asks you to cheat on the expenses or the input of a trade, this makes him a kafer (by concealing the truth of the trade even if he is not an atheist). You have to refuse and tell him that he has his way and you have yours, even if this ends by firing you. You do not have to call him "you cheater!" or "you kafer".
Suppose your boss is an atheist, but an honest man. Are you going to call him "kafer" every now and then, even if he is not hiding his disbelieve in God, but he is fair to you?
It is the actions you should take - as per this verse - not the addressing.
-
Peace andy,
Careful in your analysis. 517 mentions "qaloo" = "said", this is past tense and not present tense nor future tense. Why? Because the kafir conceals or hides the truth, as Samia eloquently expressed. So 517 is not addressing christians, but those who originally perpetrated the lies when they knew full well that Isa was just a man. A person born into christianity today is brainwashed into the system. He/she didn't have a chance to make that conscious decision to reject the truth.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Samia,
Suppose your boss is an atheist, but an honest man. Are you going to call him "kafer" every now and then, even if he is not hiding his disbelieve in God, but he is fair to you?
I am really really sad you ask me such question sis (in case you really mean it). That is really really far away from what in my mind. Oh Allah, please make my post understandable by them (
What important is NOT that you GREET them kafir every morning, every time you meet them, etc. What important is you make them know that they are kafir. It could be through personal discussion, mass media, discussion forum, mailing list, etc. That is how I understand the verse and this is neither absurd nor illogical at all as some members here claim.
It is the actions you should take - as per this verse - not the addressing.
I agree with this as far as I understand your post.