My last post on FM
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Peace Tay,
Peace Andy,
The kafir must be clearly identified as one who has seen and understands the guidance as being from God and then chooses to reject it or hide it.
Agree ...my point is calling kafir is neither absurd nor illogical because that is direct command from Allah.
Unless someone outright confesses to such a position, how can you possibly identify a kafir?
Unless you are Allah, then you cannot know what is inside someone's heart. I fully understand that. But you have also to understand that no kafir will say that they are kafir. They don't even realize it. Take a look at sunni and shia, they are the ones who reject quran but they call me (or us?) kafir. I am not saying that all sunni and shia are kafir (indeed by default I always consider them muslims). I am just trying to give illustration that kafirun don't realize that they are kafir.
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salaam andy,
Peace mr. humble,
What you call absurd and illogical is EXACTLY what Allah commands us to do, which basically means your statement above is in plain contradictions with the revelations of Allah. In case you have not realized that, please read quran1091 Say, "O you disbelievers.
it is one story when allah calls someone/group "kafir", but it is indeed another story when i/we label someone "kafir" for social punidhment. andy, i have not found one verse in the quran in which GOD orders us to label someone kafir. just because there is a variation of faith amongst us, that doesn't mean we jump to conclusions whether he/she/group is/are a kafir or not. it is allah who created us and he shall be the one to punish us.
ch 109
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1091 Say "O rejecters,"
1092 "I do not serve what you serve,"
1093 "Nor do you serve what I serve,"
1094 "Nor will I serve what you serve,"
1095 "Nor will you serve what I serve,"
1096 "To you is your system, and to me is mine."(free-minds translation)
in what part of this chapter Allah tells us to call/label someone "kafir". but however, God encourages us to seperate and distinguish ourselves from the evil acts commited by people. you can identify who serves god and who doesn't. but there are different degrees to "kufr/disobeying/disbelieving" i strongly believe no one has access to that inner knowledge of one's soul except allah. our inner conscience is just a mere reflection of our perception of existence. my final point is it is allah who decides who is kafir or not, not us!
peace, rifat
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Salaam mr. humble,
salaam andy,
it is one story when allah calls someone/group "kafir", but it is indeed another story when i/we label someone "kafir" for social punidhment.
Please read and ponder the verse carefully.
1091 Say "O rejecters,"
It is NOT Allah calls someone/group kafir. It is the command from Allah to call kafir as kafir (the word "say" makes the difference).
andy, i have not found one verse in the quran in which GOD orders us to label someone kafir.
How can you say that mr. humble? Please read and ponder the verse again. Pay attention to the word "Say".
just because there is a variation of faith amongst us, that doesn't mean we jump to conclusions whether he/she/group is/are a kafir or not. it is allah who created us and he shall be the one to punish us.
There is a difference between variations among believers and kafirun. This is the one you have to be able to grasp. If you cannot grasp the difference, how can you obey the command of Allah to call kafir those who are kafir? Did the messenger never call kafir?
ch 109
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1091 Say "O rejecters,"
1092 "I do not serve what you serve,"
1093 "Nor do you serve what I serve,"
1094 "Nor will I serve what you serve,"
1095 "Nor will you serve what I serve,"
1096 "To you is your system, and to me is mine."(free-minds translation)
in what part of this chapter Allah tells us to call/label someone "kafir". but however, God encourages us to seperate and distinguish ourselves from the evil acts commited by people. you can identify who serves god and who doesn't. but there are different degrees to "kufr/disobeying/disbelieving" i strongly believe no one has access to that inner knowledge of one's soul except allah. our inner conscience is just a mere reflection of our perception of existence. my final point is it is allah who decides who is kafir or not, not us!
peace, rifat
Please read my post to Tay. I have stated clearly that unless you are Allah you cannot know what is inside someone's heart. I also agree that Allah is the one who judges. But is that an excuse not to obey the command of Allah? Do you think Allah makes mistakes when He commands us to call kafir while He is the one who knows who really kafirun are?
Wassalam,
andy -
So Andy, what are your personal criterions for knowing a kafir?
Is it that they disagree with your personal interpretations, and have their own e.g? Does that give you the right to call people kafir, disagreement?I would have no reservations calling Bush a kafir, his behaviour exposes him. But someone who search for God in a different way than me, i wouldnt dare,because they are still doing or intending what is right, even if i may disagree with their view. So in this scenario, im elevating myself to God by judgin their heart as opposed to their behaviour.
Just a thought
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Peace all,
Phoenix, I got the 5th start after completing 16 grueling weeks of M.B.C *Moderator Boot Camp" at an undisclosed location off the coast of China.
Andy, I understand your angle but disagree with your implied conclusion. If we both agree that kafirun can't be identified simply by their choosing to reject God's guidance, then the "khul" in 109 becomes moot in this regard. Surah 107 describes kafir behavior, ie, neglecting the orphans and poor, and deterring others from helping. This, again, is a decided behavior. These are the people that should be left to their own gods, their own religions. So, in essence, it is certainly absurd and illogical to call anyone a kafir on a forum unless that person outwardly expresses that he/she has understood God's guidance and chose to reject it, chose not to help the poor and orphans, and chose to deter others from helping.
Peace,
Tay -
;D rotfl
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So Andy, what are your personal criterions for knowing a kafir?
Is it that they disagree with your personal interpretations, and have their own e.g? Does that give you the right to call people kafir, disagreement?To Magi and possibly other forum members who missunderstand my post
Did I ever encourage to call kafir those who have different understanding of quran?Please read my post carefully what I was addressing here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7019.msg106233#msg106233
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Peace Tay,
Andy, I understand your angle but disagree with your implied conclusion. If we both agree that kafirun can't be identified simply by their choosing to reject God's guidance, then the "khul" in 109 becomes moot in this regard. Surah 107 describes kafir behavior, ie, neglecting the orphans and poor, and deterring others from helping. This, again, is a decided behavior. These are the people that should be left to their own gods, their own religions.
If you read quran carefully, there are many criterions of kafir. Actually, I was not addressing this topic (criterions of kafir), instead I was addressing the claim that calling kafir is absurd and illogical. Such claim is in direct contradiction with quran since calling kafir is direct command from Allah.
Having said that, let's take an example of verse 517
517 Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is the Messiah the son of Mary." Say "Who has any power against God if He had wanted to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother, and all who are on Earth!" And to God is the sovereignty of heavens and Earth and all that is in-between; He creates what He pleases. God is capable of all things.
As we all can read, verse 517 gives a criteria of kafir, which is believing that Jesus is God. Even in such a case, I won't call my christian friend kafir before proper explanation, talks, discussion, and da'wa have been done. Just because christians worship Jesus doesn't necessarily mean they are kafirun because it could be that they are not aware of the truth.
So, in essence, it is certainly absurd and illogical to call anyone a kafir on a forum unless that person outwardly expresses that he/she has understood God's guidance and chose to reject it, chose not to help the poor and orphans, and chose to deter others from helping.
Please read the example above. I just want to add yet another criteria of kafir Those who don't judge with what Allah has revealed
544 We have sent down the Torah, in it is guidance and a light; the prophets who have surrendered judged with it for those who are Jews, as well as the Rabbis, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of God's Scripture, and they were witness over. So do not fear the people but fear Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
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Peace Andy and all
The word "kafar" means to conceal, cover. In the Qur'aan mainly those who cover the truth they know.
The sura you mentioned does not command you to call a kafer kafer. The main point of the surat is not to do as they do, even if they believe in God but want to conceal the truth about anything.For example if your boss asks you to cheat on the expenses or the input of a trade, this makes him a kafer (by concealing the truth of the trade even if he is not an atheist). You have to refuse and tell him that he has his way and you have yours, even if this ends by firing you. You do not have to call him "you cheater!" or "you kafer".
Suppose your boss is an atheist, but an honest man. Are you going to call him "kafer" every now and then, even if he is not hiding his disbelieve in God, but he is fair to you?
It is the actions you should take - as per this verse - not the addressing.
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Peace andy,
Careful in your analysis. 517 mentions "qaloo" = "said", this is past tense and not present tense nor future tense. Why? Because the kafir conceals or hides the truth, as Samia eloquently expressed. So 517 is not addressing christians, but those who originally perpetrated the lies when they knew full well that Isa was just a man. A person born into christianity today is brainwashed into the system. He/she didn't have a chance to make that conscious decision to reject the truth.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Samia,
Suppose your boss is an atheist, but an honest man. Are you going to call him "kafer" every now and then, even if he is not hiding his disbelieve in God, but he is fair to you?
I am really really sad you ask me such question sis (in case you really mean it). That is really really far away from what in my mind. Oh Allah, please make my post understandable by them (
What important is NOT that you GREET them kafir every morning, every time you meet them, etc. What important is you make them know that they are kafir. It could be through personal discussion, mass media, discussion forum, mailing list, etc. That is how I understand the verse and this is neither absurd nor illogical at all as some members here claim.
It is the actions you should take - as per this verse - not the addressing.
I agree with this as far as I understand your post.
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Peace Tay,
Peace andy,
Careful in your analysis. 517 mentions "qaloo" = "said", this is past tense and not present tense nor future tense. Why? Because the kafir conceals or hides the truth, as Samia eloquently expressed.
I am not arabic expert but I am quite sure the verses are valid for christians in the past, present and the future.
So 517 is not addressing christians, but those who originally perpetrated the lies when they knew full well that Isa was just a man. A person born into christianity today is brainwashed into the system. He/she didn't have a chance to make that conscious decision to reject the truth.
I agree that born christians might be unaware of the truth. That is why by default I will consider them as believers just like sunnis and shias. The only thing I disagree with you is that you exclude the present and future christians. That is the same as saying it is OK for sunnis and shias to keep stoning adulterers because they are not the ones who perpetrated the lies.
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Hi there,
Here is my analysis
Chapter 109 Are we justified in name calling?
For those who have read even just a part the Quran, not only with their eyes but also with what lies behind, theyll know how much the Quran values politeness. It rightfully calls itself the reminder when it repeatedly speaks to us of laws of etiquette that ought to be common sense. Here is a small portion of those reminding verses
"Walk humbly and lower your voice, the ugliest voice is the donkey's voice." (3119)
"O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation "Thou art not a believer!"..." (494)
"Not equal is the good response and the bad response. You shall resort to the nicest possible response. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend." (4134)
Further verses on etiquette can be found here
http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/etiquette.htmThe first quoted verse is forthright and clear, yelling and shouting is likened to the voice of the donkey. Recall that the donkey is a symbol of stupidity as well.
The last two verses are more interesting. In them we find clear guidance on how to use chapter 109. In clear words we are forbidden from calling anyone who has offered us a salutation or Peace which is another possible meaning of word Salam which was used. Its therefore irrefutable that followers of the Quran are prohibited from discriminating or harassing others by their faith as longs as these others offer peace, meaning religious tolerance and living in harmony.
Believers where persecuted by the rejecters. They (the believers) were given permission and were ordered to fight these persecutors and oppressors. However, it was made clear that anyone that did not throw them out of their homes was not an enemy, and bonds of friendship were permitted. The Quran even suggested that we may forgive and forget those who threw the believers out, after persecution was no more.
This is made even clear in the last verse quoted. The Quran clearly says that we are to speak as nicely as possible, making it possible that our enemies might become or friends. Who are the enemies of their time? It is the rejecters because they persecuted and conspired in secret against the believers. Even to these people we are to talk nicely.
And, ponder a bit on this quote from Farid Esack in which he gives a wonderful example from the Quran
Do feel free to communicate with me and I will try to respond; Do remember when you write to me that Allah instructed Moses to speak gently to Pharaoh and that a) however noble you or intentions may be, you are not better than Moses and b) whatever you make of me and my views, I am not worse than Pharaoh!
Now, as we have established the fundamental value that politeness is, we should try to interpret chapter 109.
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1091 Say "O rejecters,"
1092 "I do not serve what you serve,"
1093 "Nor do you serve what I serve,"
1094 "Nor will I serve what you serve,"
1095 "Nor will you serve what I serve,"
1096 "To you is your system, and to me is mine."Many have come to justify their calling others as rejecters in the light of the word Say in the first verse of chapter 109. They believe that the Quran orders them to call others rejecters. Traditionally a rejecter is anyone who denounces the official tenets of Islam. Whos a Kafir, and whos not is today defined by the majority of Muslims ruled by the minority of Scholars. Needless to say this system doesnt stand to scrutiny, as truth is immune to the whims of majority.
Similarly the claim of the word say justifying name calling doesnt stand up to scrutiny. Recall that the Quran prohibits saying "Thou art not a believer!" to anyone who wants to be with peace with us.
But, the fact remains that the Quran does use the word Say. We are ordered to say and allowed to use the word Kafir, weve just misunderstood to whom and when.
Both questions can be answered by looking again at 494.
"O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation "Thou art not a believer!"..." (494)
Only persons who do not offer to live in peace, meaning religious tolerance and freedom are to be called Kafirs. That answers to whom.
And only are we to call them that in an effort to make peace. You should understand this by analyzing chapter 109. Ask yourself, what is the point of this chapter? What is the prophet trying to do with this chapter? He is trying to make peace with the Kafirs. He is trying to get them to agree that faith is personal.
To use this chapter to make name calling lawful is not only contradictory to many other verses in the Quran, it is also an abuse the chapter itself. Remember people, we are supposed to be the oppressors of anger.
Ive used a few verses to simply suggest that my views are based on the Quran. Ive proved nothing, a one day study should be enough for a person to be able to verify or refute that what Ive suggested is compatible with the rest of the Quran.
Nadeem
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Peace andy,
I'm glad we agree more than we disagree...
The only thing I disagree with you is that you exclude the present and future christians. That is the same as saying it is OK for sunnis and shias to keep stoning adulterers because they are not the ones who perpetrated the lies.
It is not the same as you've described. No one is saying the actions are OK. What I'm saying is if a person never received the guidance, then by definition he/she cannot be a rejector of the guidance - this goes for any religion or sect or cult or individual. This does not make their behavior acceptable. Wrong is wrong, and right is right.
If we accept 517 at face value, then all trinitarian christians are in the same category kafirun.
This does not make any sense. But it must be either a group of them, or all of them. I argue that if it's a group of them, then it must be those who've understood that God is One, yet persist in perpetrating that God is Three.Same for your sunni and shia example. If they know what they're doing is wrong, and not sanctioned by God, then they are rejectors of God's guidance. If they do not know, then they are just ignorant. Either way, stoning is still terribly wrong.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
It is not the same as you've described. No one is saying the actions are OK. What I'm saying is if a person never received the guidance, then by definition he/she cannot be a rejector of the guidance - this goes for any religion or sect or cult or individual. This does not make their behavior acceptable. Wrong is wrong, and right is right.
If we accept 517 at face value, then all trinitarian christians are in the same category kafirun.
This does not make any sense. But it must be either a group of them, or all of them. I argue that if it's a group of them, then it must be those who've understood that God is One, yet persist in perpetrating that God is Three.Same for your sunni and shia example. If they know what they're doing is wrong, and not sanctioned by God, then they are rejectors of God's guidance. If they do not know, then they are just ignorant. Either way, stoning is still terribly wrong.
Agree
What confuses me is I thought I have explained it in my post before so why you seem to have different view by writing such a long post? This is what I wrote before here
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7019.msg106541#msg106541
As we all can read, verse 517 gives a criteria of kafir, which is believing that Jesus is God. Even in such a case, I won't call my christian friend kafir before proper explanation, talks, discussion, and da'wa have been done. Just because christians worship Jesus doesn't necessarily mean they are kafirun because it could be that they are not aware of the truth.
I am really confused ...
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Peace andy,
My apologies for the confusion. I went long on the explanation because I didn't think my point was being made well enough, and it's clear that it still isn't working. I'll give it one last shot...
Christians, the vast majority of them, believe that God is three. This is because of the organized corruption and book-burning that took place 1681 years ago - the Council of Nicaea followed by the Athanasian Creed. Now, a millenium and a half of pounding into people's minds that their religion should not make any sense and that one should accept what one does not understand on sheer blind faith has resulted in what we call the modern christian.
This modern christian has been bred to not use his abillity to deduce and think reasonably when it comes to his religion. So, no amount of discussing and/or explaining can lift this veil, for they are already pre-programmed to view you as the enemy, ie, the devil using his worldly dominance to influence you into influencing christians.
Surely, if we know this, then God knows this. And God is Most Merciful. People trust those whom they love to bring them the truth. So, if someone is bringing falsehood but believes it is truth, then the falsehood lives on in the lives of otherwise good people. It is not the fault of the people who've been influenced, but the fault of those who originally perpetrated the influence. They are the kafirun. They knew the truth of Isa's message yet chose to distort it and perpetrate a falsehood to benefit themselves.
The same applies to the sunni's and shia's.
I hope I've made myself clear.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all
I think brother Andy's post is not to be seen in a malicious manner. He simply said that calling someone a kafir is not absurd and illogical, as someone earlier stated. And he emphasized that it is mentioned in the Qur'an to say this, to people who we truly know are. Although it's not good to randomly label people kafirs, we need to stop thinking of it as an extremely insulting word. However, I disagree to the extent that AB went. But I agree with what Andy is saying.
Peace all.
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Peace OpenMind, all,
Mr. Humble's "illogical and absurd" comment was in the context of this forum, regarding former member Ahmed calling magi a kafir. This is, by definition, absurd and illogical because magi does not fit the description given in the qur'an. Further, anyone calling anyone else a kafir on a forum is equally absurd and illogical unless that person outwardly expresses kafirun behavior/belief as described in the qur'an.
I don't think brother andy's posts were malicious in the least. In fact, I find his posts quite insightful and intelligent. I just think this entire thread has been an exercise in misunderstanding. May we all grow from it.
Peace,
Tay