salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
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Why this change of meaning of the expression "uphold salat and bring forth zakat", in a unchanging context ?
Is your definition of unchanging context, the same chapter? If you think the context is the same, fine. 'al quran' doesn't. In 918, it is referencing the mumineen. In any case, i did not change the meaning at all.
Why do you exclude that, in and , the idolaters have, in their repentance, committed to become mumineen ?
To repent = to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life (Merriam-Webster)Is there any occurrence of the expression "uphold salat and bring forth zakat" where it does not reference believers ? I don't think so.
And I have difficulties to imagine how one could purify oneself (or bring forth purification) without turning toward God's guidance.
As We have sent a messenger to you from amongst yourselves to recite Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Scripture and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.
If the idolaters who have, according to you, pledged with the muslims in and are not mentioned in , are they mentioned in ?
I am not using the Warsh numbering, thus in 918, the idolaters are not mentioned. FACT.
I never said I were using Warsh numbering.
I am looking for those idolaters who have, according to you, pledged with the muslims in and .
After and , It seems that we have no news of them.
Can they enliven/visit institutes of acknowledgment ?- I have never said the rhetorical question in was a statement of law.
You may not have used the word "law" explicitly, but when someone makes an absolute or factual statement, which leaves no room for interpretation, about a sign in 'al quran' like you did, its the same thing.
As a conclusion, salat in cannot be a pledge between the idolaters and the muslims. This would contradict all the verses quoted above.
No it wouldn't. Firstly, the are not statements of absolutes. Secondly, you disregard the feeling of those with the messenger who were fighting them. They were clearly hesitant (see 913, 916), hence re-stating / reflection on what the idolaters did.
Yes, they were hesitant, but this does change anything.
In all these verses, God deters the muslims to pledge with these idolaters, and orders the muslims to fight them.
Is this not clear ?Salat in and is about the pledge of the muslims with God, as salat in
Its a pity that doesn't work grammatically, logically, or contextually
pledge with God? Not once mentioned.
This is what they have pledged to uphold, i.e 'al quran' and thus the obligation/system enshrined in it.
muslims? Not once mentioned, and disproven grammatically.
Why, " disproven grammatically" ?
In 918, it is the mumineen, not the muslimeen. FACT.
What does it change ?
95 it is fight them all, 912 it is fight the chiefs.
What does it change ?
Please note, I will not discuss this issue further, unless I feel a solid point has been made.
WakasYou claim that salat in and is a pledge between the idolaters and the muslims.
But this interpretation is made imposible by verses , whereGod deters the muslim to make any other pledge with the idolaters.
I think it is an enough solid point.Peace.
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Salaam Wakas,
Thank you very much for this thread it helped me much.
I do hope Br Tanveermd read it too.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
An update on the article
One of the things I'd change in the above article is "assail IN your system/obligation" in 912. This weakens the traditional understanding of deen=religion. Further reading see here
Another thing I thought of was that it states "and THEY (muAAtadoona/transgressors/wrongdoers) assail in YOUR deen". Now traditional interpretations of these signs say the muAAtadoona have become Muslims, if that is the case, why separate them by THEY and YOUR. This clearly shows they are still thought of as separate groups, as the article points out.
To conclude
It is not considered theirs to assail in, thus they never entered into a religion/deen* (Islam).*traditional understanding
Comments?
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I was reading my article today and happened to notice it was exactly 1 year after I wrote it. Thought those who haven't might like to read it
Also, Layth/Zein, if you could add it to the articles list and the what's new section, that would be cool.
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htm
I would really love for some traditional scholars to challenge it.
Anyways, it should be read with the following change (as stated in the above post)
912 "And if they break their oaths after making them, and THEY assail in YOUR obligation/system...
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Peace Wakas,
Great article, I've saved it for future reference as well. I also wanted to bring to your attention an article that I found today about 'prayer' from a different perspective ..... I found it to be very interesting, to say the least. I'm curious to read your opinion on what he writes. Here's the link ... if you have the time...
http//www.nierica.com/prayers/ExplorePrayer.html
With gratitude...
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The updated article
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
very nice article and a lot of work..
I vote for it to be promoted at the free-minds website under Articles. It's definitely one explanation that's emerging to be the final explanation to Salat.. all else have led to ambiguity. I guess it's time Allah wants the God-Alone community to finally have a unanimous outcome to this most important debate.
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ILisa,
Sorry, I thought I replied to this. I read it. I dont have much to say on it. The only comments I'd make is that a balance of giving thanks and requesting blessings needs to be struck. Now, I tend to stay away from specific blessings, just general ones, as I am more comfortable with that. I do agree with the gist of the following statement "It really is true that what we give or do to others, we give or do to ourselves. If we want peace, healing, light and love in our lives, we must focus our will, intent and actions on opening to these qualities and extending them to self and others."
PA,
Thanks for the feedback. The older article is present on the free-minds articles page
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat_wakas.htm -
Wakas,
I know this is a very old forum. Sorry for re-opening it. I dont know what is your current position on salat. Please send me the link on your recent article on this subject. I found this debate very thought provoking.
I am not sure if you are still maintaining "non-muslims can also perform salat" based on chapter 9.
My question
In 56, believers are asked to clean themselves before salat. Can we infer from this that only believers are expected to perform salat?
"O you who believe, if you rise to hold the Salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative." (56)
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peace explorer,
My position is that the regular/timed "salat" is only upon the mumineen/believers.
And yes, my position is still that according to chapter 9, non-believers can uphold/maintain the "salat". This can confuse some, however, if you read my articles all should become clear
http//mypercept.co.uk/slw.htm (an introductory article to the basic concept)
http//mypercept.co.uk/quran_on_salat.htm (reasonably comprehensive list of additional information)
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm (a discussion on chapter 9's pivotal usage) -
Peace Wakas,
This method of salat makes a lot of sense, just one question though (for now)...
In 9122
Progressive Muslims"
And it is not for the believers to march out in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware.If part of our salat is to be studying/reflecting etc.. why would people need to stay behind to study the deen and remind the others?
What's your view on this sign?
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Peace Wakas,
This method of salat makes a lot of sense, just one question though (for now)...
In 9122
Progressive Muslims"
And it is not for the believers to march out in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware.If part of our salat is to be studying/reflecting etc.. why would people need to stay behind to study the deen and remind the others?
What's your view on this sign?
War strategy perhaps? Consider that in another quranic verse it instructs believers to strike at the enemy's command centres.
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Peace OPF,
First, this thread is regarding this article(not sure/making sure you know that). Without reading that article, you may not know what I am taking about.
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
Secondly, The ones staying behind are 'studying the deen' literally. I don't think that qualifies as war strategy.
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Peace OPF,
First, this thread is regarding this article(not sure/making sure you know that). Without reading that article, you may not know what I am taking about.
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
Secondly, The ones staying behind are 'studying the deen' literally. I don't think that qualifies as war strategy.
What is the 'deen'?
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Usually translated as 'religion' but the better word for it is 'system'. FM uses 'system'.
Example, see how it's used in 2256 (no compulsion in al-deen)and 4213 (...the same 'deen'...).
= Dal-Ya-Nun = obedience/submissiveness, servility, religion, high/elevated/noble/glorious rank/condition/state, took/receive a loan or borrowed upon credit, become indebted, in debt, under the obligation of a debt, contract a debt, repay/reimburse a loan, rule/govern/manage it, possess/own it, become habituated/accustomed to something, confirmation, death (because it is a debt everyone must pay), a particular law/statute, system, custom/habit/business, a way/course/manner of conduct/acting, repayment/compensation.
dana vb. (I)
impf. act. 929
pcple. pass. 3753, 5686dayn n.m. 2282, 411, 412, 412, 412
din n.m. 14, 2132, 2193, 2217, 2217, 2256, 319, 324, 373, 383, 385, 446, 4125, 4146, 4171, 53, 53, 53, 554, 557, 577, 670, 6137, 6159, 6161, 729, 751, 839, 849, 872, 911, 912, 929, 933, 933, 936, 9122, 1022, 10104, 10105, 1240, 1276, 1535, 1652, 2278, 242, 2425, 2455, 2682, 2965, 3030, 3030, 3032, 3043, 3132, 335, 3720, 3878, 392, 393, 3911, 3914, 4014, 4026, 4065, 4213, 4213, 4221, 4828, 4828, 4916, 516, 5112, 5656, 608, 609, 619, 619, 7026, 7446, 829, 8215, 8217, 8218, 8311, 957, 985, 985, 1071, 1096, 1096, 1102,
tadayana vb. (VI) perf. act. 2282
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages 108, 109, 110, 111, 112
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
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Peace.
My question for Wakas Have you read Layth's new article on Salat?
If so, how does your view differ from his?
What parts if any do you think are missing from Layth's article?
My question for Layth Have you read Wakas' article on Salat?
If so, how does your view differ from his?
What parts if any do you think are missing from Wakas' article?
Thoughts......
I have read both articles and I am wondering.....what is the real difference between the two thoughts processes?
I understand from Wakas' article that salat is not prayer, but I also understand from Layth's article what salat is... and how to... on a practical basis...implement that in my life.
But is there someway that we can combine both articles to give a more clear picture? Is there someway we can come together as brothers and sisters in the deen? We need to unite...I am asking in the name of God, The Almighty, The Merciful...for uniting on the parts of Layth and Wakas in regards to the salat issue, and come up with a unified article on the issue.
Wakas tells you what Salat isn't and Layth tells you what Salat is...why couldn't we combine them and perhaps expand on it, and maybe come up with a unifed article that could be produced, God willing, down the road... as a small salat leaflet or booklet?
I have the technological ability and software needed to be involved in that if needed. I am also willing to contribute financially if need be as much as I can afford, God willing.
I have been here under many names for the past three years or more, and have gone through the learning process with both brothers, and now is the time I stand up and say we need to unite our understanding of salat. I feel we are so close, yet we need some sort of document that is the standard. I will not accept the comments that drag the process down. We WILL God willing, have a central unified understanding on salat, God willing. Then this when done needs to be the only article on the article section and if people want to debate it or come up with other ideas that is why we have the forum section where people could debate it. Make sense?
Please comment.
YTV
P.S. I love you ALL....for the sake of God and whatever it is you need feel free to ask anytime..and God willing whatever I can contribute I will, God willing.
YTV
