Revised Article on Jinn

maxq

Salam Layth

If jinns are living beings with free will, who are made from energy/plasma, then how do you explain the following

2130 Are the unbelievers not aware (after this proclamation) that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that We exploded into parting? And that out of water We made every living thing? Will they not, then, acknowledge the Truth?

Something's gotta give...

phoenix1

peace maxq,
thank you for bringing out that verse. I think it is included to make sure that people don't mistake jinn for living beings. Living things are made of water. Jinn are made of fire. We are made of clay.
there is obviously symbolism at work here.

arnoldyasin

Peace,

No dear Phoenix, it is title-forming, which creates these contradictions. Jinn is not a title, but a description which refers to many things. It is very clear when people use their mind in stead of holding on to wrong approaches.

nadeem

Hi there,

So, when I say 'Computer' I'm referring to every- or anything that computes?

When I say 'My computer cost two thousand", it could actually mean "My calculator/clock/PC/Accountant/ cost two thousand". ?

I think it's unfair to assume that a general description can't serve as a specific title.

Nadeem

arnoldyasin

Peace,

The word 'computer' is a title of a sort of machine. The word jinn just means 'something or someone rarely seen or concealed by time, horizon, distance, reality and so on'. This description is the same as 'walking being', does 'walking being' refer to one species? No everything that walks. The same holds for the word jinn, which points out to anything hidden or rarelt seen that fits the context of the verses used. Plus the whole idea of jinn being a species contradicts many verses, as there are no laws given to jinns or any jinn-messenger mentioned, while the Quran is also clearly for the jinn beings, so this refers that these jinns are humans rarely seen, while other jinn mentioned in the Quran can mean totaly different things. See my article to see what i mean

http//19.org/index.php?id=91,417,0,0,1,0

phoenix1

peace arnold,
then what is made of fire? why does it just refer to it as "hidden" (because anything can be hidden) and not what it actually is?

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Read my article........

maxq

Unlike verses 14 and 15 of Al-Rahman, there is no symbolism in 2130... this verse is clearly stating that the universe formed out of a "big bang", and all life in the universe is water based, or rather it emerged from water...

peace maxq,
thank you for bringing out that verse. I think it is included to make sure that people don't mistake jinn for living beings. Living things are made of water. Jinn are made of fire. We are made of clay.
there is obviously symbolism at work here.

phoenix1

peace

so are we really made of clay?

maxq

As I said, verses 14 and 15 of Al-Rahman may have symbolic connotation...

(He) created the human (form) out of inorganic matter that sounded like an empty pot. (And it was empty of a trace of the finished form). And created the jinn (psychological aspects, thought processes, that others cannot see or sense) out of a flickering flame of fire/chaos.

refer to 5016, and 230 why I used this interpretation.

However, I also agree with what Arnold's position that he has presented in his article "Intelligent Design out of clay" for verse 14 of Al-Rahman.

I presented a complementing explanation for verse 15 considering the meaning of jinn as hidden

Neurons in the human brain function literally through electrical discharges that cannot occur in nature without being chaotic. They cannot occur in a cohesive and coherent pattern as they do in the brain, and give rise to our conciousness and thought processes, something hidden to the outside.

So we have been given a body made of various organic and inorganic substances, but without what happened in verse 15, we would be just like pottery (lifeless) We have been given life, intellect and emotions through our firey disposition fashioned into coherent form.

arnoldyasin

peace

so are we really made of clay?

Here is an quotation of one of Holland's leading scholars, Professor dr. Stephen B.J.Menken, Chief Evolutionbiologist of Amsterdam University
"With the making of the first step to the primal soup which contains all basicelements for life to a living organism, we stumble upon a lot of problems. One of the problems is the UV-radiation of the sun. We are protected by our skin and the earth's ozonlayer from the worst radiation. The young earth didn't have a protecting ozonlayer, so the UV-radiation reached freely the atmosphere and the top waterlayers. A second problem is that the most simple organic substances can move in all directions in a watery substance. For life to emerge, it is necassery that the substances remain together, a third problem is the sensitivity of DNA and RNA, mainly the carbonic-sugars, which brake apart easy.
There must have happened two things will the substances of the primal soup evolve to something more complicating, to life. The substances must remain together and protected against harmfull influences from outside. The second most important theory is that of the clayparticles. These particles are common on earth. They're layered, smaller then two micrometre and can bind all organic molecules and make them react with each other. On the surface of the clayparticles, can by example, RNA been build up from simple molecules. Next to that, enhance the clayparticles, the forming of fatty-acids, in which an enviroment can evolve which is seperated from the outside world. The walls of every cell, of plants, animals and fungies, are build up out of double layered fatty-acids. In a solution of fatty-acids together with clayparticles, bindings emerge of double layered fatty-acids. If on the surface of the inclosed clayparticles, molecules get 'stuck', this can be most important for the origins of life, then by this theory can we explain the build of the primitive cell."

As for your approach to the neurons Maxq, i rather believe 'fire' describes the nature of the emotions and not directly the way of communications between cells that create the emotions, as with anger, hormones are involved too.

maxq

As I mentioned, it is an explanation... not a claim what I believe is what I have presented in the translation of the verses.

maxq

Emotions such as anger do not eminate... they are a response to electrical input to the limbic system, specifically the hypothalmus that issues commands to release the hormone...

maxq

But this is a digression... I respect your opinion Arnold D

Layth

Peace,

If jinns are living beings with free will, who are made from energy/plasma, then how do you explain the following

2130 Are the unbelievers not aware (after this proclamation) that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that We exploded into parting? And that out of water We made every living thing? Will they not, then, acknowledge the Truth?

There is no contradiction as the above verse is relating to us a fact, that life emerges/emerged from water (it would have been conclusive had the verse been reversed in saying every living thing was made of water).

You can see the reversal in the verse below, where God speaks of the creatures made from water and defines them specifically as organic life that moves on 2 feet, 4 feet, or crawls

"And God created every moving creature from water. So some of them move on their bellies, and some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. God creates whatever He wills. God is capable of all things." (2445)

Also, this concept that only living things can be made from water are entirely dispelled just by asking if God and His angels are also made of water? God tells us He is like light, does that mean He is not alive?

maxq

so you are confirming that jinn is not a title of a species that is a living race made out of fire literally

maxq

If you notice the first part of the verse, it mentions the creation of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE... if jinns are part of the universe, then they must also be included in the creation within the confines of the universe. And then the second part of the verse refers to ALL LIFE in the universe... not just the "organic" one... the implication is clear Layth. I do not think there is anything more that can be added to the discussion.

ayman

Peace Layth, Maxq, all,

There is no contradiction as the above verse is relating to us a fact, that life emerges/emerged from water (it would have been conclusive had the verse been reversed in saying every living thing was made of water).

I don't see the difference.

In Arabic (as well as in English),

"And we made from the water everything alive"

Has the same meaning as

"And we made everything alive from the water"

You can see the reversal in the verse below, where God speaks of the creatures made from water and defines them specifically as organic life that moves on 2 feet, 4 feet, or crawls

"And God created every moving creature from water. So some of them move on their bellies, and some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. God creates whatever He wills. God is capable of all things." (2445)

2445 confirms what we know from 2130. I don't see those as saying totally different things.

Also, this concept that only living things can be made from water are entirely dispelled just by asking if God and His angels are also made of water? God tells us He is like light, does that mean He is not alive?

Comparing the god and the "jinn" is a poor analogy because we are clearly told in the great reading that there is nothing like the god. So anything that applies to his creatures doesn't apply to him.

As for those, that you call "angels", before you make any unfounded conclusions, please tell us what those are made of according to the scripture?

If you notice the first part of the verse, it mentions the creation of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE... if jinns are part of the universe, then they must also be included in the creation within the confines of the universe. And then the second part of the verse refers to ALL LIFE in the universe... not just the "organic" one... the implication is clear Layth. I do not think there is anything more that can be added to the discussion.

Thank you for your excellent observation about 2130.

Peace,

Ayman

Layth

Peace Max/Ayman,

I do not believe you have understood what I was pointing out (which is why you repeated the same issues again).

The wording of 2130 says that out of water we made every living thing. This means that logically you can a living thing which is also not made of water (i.e. the wording does not restrict the living things to be made of water).

Compare this with saying we made every living thing out of water, in this case you have logically restricted every living thing to be made of water.

Therefore, you can have living things in the universe, made from both organic (water) and non-organic matter and be in perfect harmony with 2120.

Now, contrast this with 2445 which speakes of creatures that move on their feet or foour feet or their belleies, the wording leaves no room for these creatures to be anything other than water-based/organic God created every moving creature from water.

Ayman,

I agree with your points that God is not an example to be given since He is unlike anything...I also agree that the composition of the angels is unknown so I will not use them either as an example. Please define in your understanding what you consider as being living so we can explore this concept further.

maxq

As-Salam-u-Alaikum Layth,

The wording of 2130 says that out of water we made every living thing. This means that logically you can a living thing which is also not made of water (i.e. the wording does not restrict the living things to be made of water).

Even if I agree, what does this have to do with your definition that jinns are made of plasma?

Therefore, you can have living things in the universe, made from both organic (water) and non-organic matter and be in perfect harmony with 2120.

Ok so at least we are down to organic and inorganic molecule based Matter now. Hence energy/plasma is out of the picture. Good!

Now, contrast this with 2445 which speakes of creatures that move on their feet or four feet or their belleies, the wording leaves no room for these creatures to be anything other than water-based/organic God created every moving creature from water.

You are not making any sense here. So creatures that have locomotion of any kind can only be organic. Then by your definition, either jinns are not made of plasma, or, they cannot move about. Do jinns live a vegetative existance? What are you trying to say?

I agree with your points that God is not an example to be given since He is unlike anything...I also agree that the composition of the angels is unknown so I will not use them either as an example. Please define in your understanding what you consider as being living so we can explore this concept further.

Let us keep the argument within the confines of the topic. Consider the sufficient condition If something is Sentient among what is called Creation (within the universe) in the Quran, I would consider it Alive. If jinn is the title of Sentient beings made from fire/energy/plasma, then it is sufficient to assume they are alive.