Revised Article on Jinn

phoenix1

peace arnold,
then what is made of fire? why does it just refer to it as "hidden" (because anything can be hidden) and not what it actually is?

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Read my article........

maxq

Unlike verses 14 and 15 of Al-Rahman, there is no symbolism in 2130... this verse is clearly stating that the universe formed out of a "big bang", and all life in the universe is water based, or rather it emerged from water...

peace maxq,
thank you for bringing out that verse. I think it is included to make sure that people don't mistake jinn for living beings. Living things are made of water. Jinn are made of fire. We are made of clay.
there is obviously symbolism at work here.

phoenix1

peace

so are we really made of clay?

maxq

As I said, verses 14 and 15 of Al-Rahman may have symbolic connotation...

(He) created the human (form) out of inorganic matter that sounded like an empty pot. (And it was empty of a trace of the finished form). And created the jinn (psychological aspects, thought processes, that others cannot see or sense) out of a flickering flame of fire/chaos.

refer to 5016, and 230 why I used this interpretation.

However, I also agree with what Arnold's position that he has presented in his article "Intelligent Design out of clay" for verse 14 of Al-Rahman.

I presented a complementing explanation for verse 15 considering the meaning of jinn as hidden

Neurons in the human brain function literally through electrical discharges that cannot occur in nature without being chaotic. They cannot occur in a cohesive and coherent pattern as they do in the brain, and give rise to our conciousness and thought processes, something hidden to the outside.

So we have been given a body made of various organic and inorganic substances, but without what happened in verse 15, we would be just like pottery (lifeless) We have been given life, intellect and emotions through our firey disposition fashioned into coherent form.

arnoldyasin

peace

so are we really made of clay?

Here is an quotation of one of Holland's leading scholars, Professor dr. Stephen B.J.Menken, Chief Evolutionbiologist of Amsterdam University
"With the making of the first step to the primal soup which contains all basicelements for life to a living organism, we stumble upon a lot of problems. One of the problems is the UV-radiation of the sun. We are protected by our skin and the earth's ozonlayer from the worst radiation. The young earth didn't have a protecting ozonlayer, so the UV-radiation reached freely the atmosphere and the top waterlayers. A second problem is that the most simple organic substances can move in all directions in a watery substance. For life to emerge, it is necassery that the substances remain together, a third problem is the sensitivity of DNA and RNA, mainly the carbonic-sugars, which brake apart easy.
There must have happened two things will the substances of the primal soup evolve to something more complicating, to life. The substances must remain together and protected against harmfull influences from outside. The second most important theory is that of the clayparticles. These particles are common on earth. They're layered, smaller then two micrometre and can bind all organic molecules and make them react with each other. On the surface of the clayparticles, can by example, RNA been build up from simple molecules. Next to that, enhance the clayparticles, the forming of fatty-acids, in which an enviroment can evolve which is seperated from the outside world. The walls of every cell, of plants, animals and fungies, are build up out of double layered fatty-acids. In a solution of fatty-acids together with clayparticles, bindings emerge of double layered fatty-acids. If on the surface of the inclosed clayparticles, molecules get 'stuck', this can be most important for the origins of life, then by this theory can we explain the build of the primitive cell."

As for your approach to the neurons Maxq, i rather believe 'fire' describes the nature of the emotions and not directly the way of communications between cells that create the emotions, as with anger, hormones are involved too.

maxq

As I mentioned, it is an explanation... not a claim what I believe is what I have presented in the translation of the verses.

maxq

Emotions such as anger do not eminate... they are a response to electrical input to the limbic system, specifically the hypothalmus that issues commands to release the hormone...

maxq

But this is a digression... I respect your opinion Arnold D

Layth

Peace,

If jinns are living beings with free will, who are made from energy/plasma, then how do you explain the following

2130 Are the unbelievers not aware (after this proclamation) that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that We exploded into parting? And that out of water We made every living thing? Will they not, then, acknowledge the Truth?

There is no contradiction as the above verse is relating to us a fact, that life emerges/emerged from water (it would have been conclusive had the verse been reversed in saying every living thing was made of water).

You can see the reversal in the verse below, where God speaks of the creatures made from water and defines them specifically as organic life that moves on 2 feet, 4 feet, or crawls

"And God created every moving creature from water. So some of them move on their bellies, and some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. God creates whatever He wills. God is capable of all things." (2445)

Also, this concept that only living things can be made from water are entirely dispelled just by asking if God and His angels are also made of water? God tells us He is like light, does that mean He is not alive?

maxq

so you are confirming that jinn is not a title of a species that is a living race made out of fire literally

maxq

If you notice the first part of the verse, it mentions the creation of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE... if jinns are part of the universe, then they must also be included in the creation within the confines of the universe. And then the second part of the verse refers to ALL LIFE in the universe... not just the "organic" one... the implication is clear Layth. I do not think there is anything more that can be added to the discussion.

ayman

Peace Layth, Maxq, all,

There is no contradiction as the above verse is relating to us a fact, that life emerges/emerged from water (it would have been conclusive had the verse been reversed in saying every living thing was made of water).

I don't see the difference.

In Arabic (as well as in English),

"And we made from the water everything alive"

Has the same meaning as

"And we made everything alive from the water"

You can see the reversal in the verse below, where God speaks of the creatures made from water and defines them specifically as organic life that moves on 2 feet, 4 feet, or crawls

"And God created every moving creature from water. So some of them move on their bellies, and some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. God creates whatever He wills. God is capable of all things." (2445)

2445 confirms what we know from 2130. I don't see those as saying totally different things.

Also, this concept that only living things can be made from water are entirely dispelled just by asking if God and His angels are also made of water? God tells us He is like light, does that mean He is not alive?

Comparing the god and the "jinn" is a poor analogy because we are clearly told in the great reading that there is nothing like the god. So anything that applies to his creatures doesn't apply to him.

As for those, that you call "angels", before you make any unfounded conclusions, please tell us what those are made of according to the scripture?

If you notice the first part of the verse, it mentions the creation of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE... if jinns are part of the universe, then they must also be included in the creation within the confines of the universe. And then the second part of the verse refers to ALL LIFE in the universe... not just the "organic" one... the implication is clear Layth. I do not think there is anything more that can be added to the discussion.

Thank you for your excellent observation about 2130.

Peace,

Ayman

Layth

Peace Max/Ayman,

I do not believe you have understood what I was pointing out (which is why you repeated the same issues again).

The wording of 2130 says that out of water we made every living thing. This means that logically you can a living thing which is also not made of water (i.e. the wording does not restrict the living things to be made of water).

Compare this with saying we made every living thing out of water, in this case you have logically restricted every living thing to be made of water.

Therefore, you can have living things in the universe, made from both organic (water) and non-organic matter and be in perfect harmony with 2120.

Now, contrast this with 2445 which speakes of creatures that move on their feet or foour feet or their belleies, the wording leaves no room for these creatures to be anything other than water-based/organic God created every moving creature from water.

Ayman,

I agree with your points that God is not an example to be given since He is unlike anything...I also agree that the composition of the angels is unknown so I will not use them either as an example. Please define in your understanding what you consider as being living so we can explore this concept further.

maxq

As-Salam-u-Alaikum Layth,

The wording of 2130 says that out of water we made every living thing. This means that logically you can a living thing which is also not made of water (i.e. the wording does not restrict the living things to be made of water).

Even if I agree, what does this have to do with your definition that jinns are made of plasma?

Therefore, you can have living things in the universe, made from both organic (water) and non-organic matter and be in perfect harmony with 2120.

Ok so at least we are down to organic and inorganic molecule based Matter now. Hence energy/plasma is out of the picture. Good!

Now, contrast this with 2445 which speakes of creatures that move on their feet or four feet or their belleies, the wording leaves no room for these creatures to be anything other than water-based/organic God created every moving creature from water.

You are not making any sense here. So creatures that have locomotion of any kind can only be organic. Then by your definition, either jinns are not made of plasma, or, they cannot move about. Do jinns live a vegetative existance? What are you trying to say?

I agree with your points that God is not an example to be given since He is unlike anything...I also agree that the composition of the angels is unknown so I will not use them either as an example. Please define in your understanding what you consider as being living so we can explore this concept further.

Let us keep the argument within the confines of the topic. Consider the sufficient condition If something is Sentient among what is called Creation (within the universe) in the Quran, I would consider it Alive. If jinn is the title of Sentient beings made from fire/energy/plasma, then it is sufficient to assume they are alive.

maxq

I have used Sentience to define an attribute of a being that can feel, and this is the first stage to consciousness and intelligence. Now observe

325 How will they feel on the Day when We will gather them? The Day about the advent of which there is no doubt. Then, every person will be paid in full for what he or she has earned. No injustice will be done to anyone.

462 They feel ashamed when wrong decisions and judgments hurt them for their own doings. Then they come to you (O Messenger), swearing that they went to others with good and noble intentions.

67 Even if We had sent down to you (O Prophet) a pre-printed book written upon parchment, so that they could feel it with their hands, the rejecters would have said, "This is nothing but obvious magic!"

6125 Whoever follows Allah?s Law of Guidance, He expands his chest wide open to submission. And whoever violates Allah?s Law of Guidance, feels his chest tight and narrowed as if he were climbing to the sky. Thus Allah?s Law appoints disgrace for those who continue to reject the Truth.

2262 Those who spend their wealth in the Cause of Allah, and afterward do not follow their giving with reminders of their generosity or injure the feelings of the recipients - their reward is with their Lord. (The society will return their generosity in this life as well). Neither fear will touch them, nor shall they have anything to regret. (1726, 303.

325 How will they feel on the Day when We will gather them? The Day about the advent of which there is no doubt. Then, every person will be paid in full for what he or she has earned. No injustice will be done to anyone.

743 (In earthly life human beings conceal many negative feelings that they have towards others even though they may have cordial relations with them). We will remove all negative emotions from their hearts. There will be no such feelings amongst the dwellers of earthly and heavenly Paradise wherein streams will flow. (The blessings of such a Social Order would be everlasting!) They will say ?All Praise is due to Allah Who has guided us to such a beautiful destination. Without Divine guidance we would never have reached this place. Allah?s Messengers brought to us this Truth. It will be proclaimed ?This is the Paradise which you have inherited; and since you have inherited this Paradise as a result of your own effort, you will not be expelled from it.?

797 Can the people of any community ever feel secure that Our Requital will not come upon them at night, while they are asleep?

798 Or do the people of townships feel secure from the coming of Our Requital upon them in the daytime while they play?

799 Do they feel secure from the subtle progression of the Divine Laws? Do they think that the Divine Law grants them unconditional security? Only the losers feel secure from the subtle progression of Allah?s Law of Requital.

7163 Ask the Israelites about the township (Elat) that was located by the sea, and they had violated the Sabbath. The big fish used to come on the surface in abundance on their day of Sabbath, feeling secure, and did not come up on other days. (But the community failed to persevere, and broke the Sabbath to get a good catch). Thus We tested them to see for themselves how they drift away from discipline.

82 The true believers are those who feel a tremor in their hearts when Allah is mentioned. (They beat synchronously with the Commands of Allah). And when His Revelations are conveyed to them, they find their faith strengthened. They do their best and then put their trust in their Lord.

96 (O Messenger) If anyone of the idolaters seeks your protection or a safe passage, grant him protection from the State. Convey to him the Word of God, and then send him to a place where he feels safe and secure. This kindness on your part is mandatory because they are people who have not yet seen the beauty of the Divine System.

929 Fight against those who reject belief in Allah and the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah has forbidden by His Messenger, nor acknowledge the True Prescribed Way of Life, among those who were given the Scripture, until they pay JIZYA, the tax, with willing submission, and feel themselves subjects of the State as law-abiding citizens.

945 Only those ask your leave (O Prophet) who do not truly believe in Allah and the Last Day. Their hearts feel doubt, and in their doubt they waver.

9112 Triumphant are those who

Return to the Right Path and take corrective action as soon as they feel that they have erred.
Obey the Commands of Allah.
Praise Allah in word and action by serving His creation.
Pick up lessons from travel and from history.
Are always humble before the Divine System.
Adore Allah alone.
Promote the Qur?anic Values, and resist the non-Qur?anic customs.
Guard against trespassing the Limits ordained by Allah.

9128 (All humanity must realize that) there has come to you a Messenger one of your own who feels your burden. He is full of concern for your betterment, and for those who attain belief, he is compassionate, merciful.

1112 Is it then conceivable (O Prophet), that you omit any part of what is being revealed to you (because the rejecters dislike it)? Or because you feel uncomfortable on their saying, "Why has not a treasure been sent down for him, or an angel come with him?" You are but a Warner, and it is Allah Who is the Custodian of all things.

1450 They will be drenched in the flames of their own igniting, feeling as if the coal tar is stuck on their whole existence.

1645 Can they who devise evil schemes ever feel sure that Allah will not cause the earth to swallow them, or that suffering will not befall them in ways they could least anticipate? (Such people indeed are going down in their ?Self? development).

1768 (You forget that His Laws apply to land as they do to the entire Universe.) Can you then, ever feel sure that He will not cause the dry land to engulf you, or let loose upon you a deadly storm, whereupon you find none to be your protector?

1769 Or can you feel sure that He will not return you to that plight a second time, and then let loose upon you a raging tempest and cause you to drown in requital for your ingratitude? And then, you will find none to help you against Our Laws. (Life is too short and too unpredictable to postpone for tomorrow the good you can do today).

2112 And as soon as they began feeling Our Mighty Requital, behold them fleeing from it! (7182, 1626).

To understand this message, which you believe is directed to the jinn (who you think are made of plasma/energy) as well, they should be able to feel, hence Sentient, hence Alive. Now look at 2130...

maxq

Moreover, traditional claim is that Quran is directed to humans, and "beings made of fire" called jinn... why do we see "Yaa ayyuhan-Naas" repeatedly and there is not a trace of "Ya ayyuhal-Jinnati wan-Naas".

Instead of this, you see
721 Say, "I was inspired that a group of jinns listened, then said, 'We have heard a wonderful Quran.'"
and for additional instances
1144 "From the evils of sneaky whisperers.
1145 Who whisper into the chests of the people.
1146 Be they of the jinns, or the people."

And another rendition which I believe is pragmatic
721 Say (O Prophet) It has been revealed to me that a tribe of nomads listened (to the Quran), and then they said, "Behold, we have heard a marvelous Recital.'" (4629)
and for additional instances
1144 "From the evil of the whisperings, the blinding desire.
1145 That whispers in peoples' conscious. (5016) (notice sudoor, not quloob, signifies active thought process)
1146 From the hidden psyche (that rationalizes the evil,) as well as (through temptations that come from) people."

Unless jinns are not a separate species, but an attribute that makes that group different from the INS within the same species, or points to some inside force that is native to us, the jinn-being theory creates numerous contradictions in the Quran.

Let us be pragmatic! The Quran is not a fairytale! Why do you think all depictions of jinnies in stories show them without legs, and instead a conical vortex like a whirlpool/tornado/dust-devil is shown for the lower part of the body? This definition was propagated by gypsies who saw dust-devils in the deserts and associated them with beings that were hidden to sight! Again, the word, hidden...

I feel that you are propagating the traditional/superstitious rendition of the word jinn instead of what Quran has intended to describe. My aim was for any reader to make a sound and meaningful decision after reading through this dialogue, and hence was compelled to participate. As far as difference of opinion is concerned, that is neither your responsibility nor mine

355 ... (SLY) Thumma Illayya Marji'ukum fa ahkumu bainakum fee maa kuntum feehi takhtalifoon (A)

... Eventually, all of you will return to Me, then I will judge among you about that wherein you used to differ.

but we are accountable for how we reach certain conclusions about things!

1736 Wa laa taqfu maa laisa laka bihee ''ilm (J) Innas-Sam''a wal-basra wal-fu'aada kullu ulaaa'ika kaana ''anhu mas'oolaa (A)

And you shall not accept (taqfu here means to halt at/be satisfied or content with) any (information) of which you have no (direct) knowledge. (Do not follow blindly! Using your faculties of perception and conception you must verify information for yourself.) In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for (your) hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning (fu'aada points back to laa taqfu, hence the intended meaning).

How can you verify or reasonably justify that jinns are a race made of fire? Please read all three posts of mine and then reply...

arnoldyasin

Peace,

I also adressed this in my article on Jinn

"

It is such that We make the wicked as supporters to one another for what they had earned.

"O you assemblies of concealed/rarely seen ones and people, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Era?" They said "Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;" and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters. That is because your Lord was not to destroy any town because of its wickedness while its people were unaware.

As the Quran never mentions the jinn having any Book received, as well that, if they were mythological creatures, it is weird both jinn and people are be to given the Quran, that the Quran is for both groups, and that there are only human messengers mentioned inside of it. Also only examples of history, laws and advises of mankind, meant only for mankind and not for the mythological invisible spirits. Where are the invisible spirits prophets? Where are the laws for the invisible spirits? Why aren?t they mentioned in the Quran? As this goes against logic, as well as there is a much better answer for it. Here ins is used for the people, as opposite of jinns, people not direct living in those societies, as living in small villages, nomads, living in jungles, bums, hermits, monks and nuns, people working behind the scenes of government, and anything that falls under normally concealed/not seen/rarely seen in the society, by the people. And thus the Quran again explains itself, what is meant in this verse with jinn. As it directly talks to intelligent beings as receiving the message. And still also can in a metaphorically sense, talk also using jinn as for the ego, desires, emotions and fantasies and so on, as not being obedient to the Truth."

But here is the biggest question of all, and Layth please answer it for me.

Quran is also for Jinn?

2.Then Salat-prayer also?

3.Yes? Then how do they do the ablution if they are made out of plasma as you claim? As they are supposed to use water, while water and plasma don't go together....do they have to use dirt when they can't find water?

maxq

An interesting point Arnold! Indeed when humans and "jinns" are addressed, Quran mentions "Ya ma'shral jinni wal insi", and not "Ya ayyuhal jinni wal insi" or "Ya ayyuhal jinnati wan-naas".

ayman

Peace Layth,

I do not believe you have understood what I was pointing out (which is why you repeated the same issues again).
The wording of 2130 says that out of water we made every living thing. This means that logically you can a living thing which is also not made of water (i.e. the wording does not restrict the living things to be made of water).
Compare this with saying we made every living thing out of water, in this case you have logically restricted every living thing to be made of water.
Therefore, you can have living things in the universe, made from both organic (water) and non-organic matter and be in perfect harmony with 2120.
Now, contrast this with 2445 which speakes of creatures that move on their feet or foour feet or their belleies, the wording leaves no room for these creatures to be anything other than water-based/organic God created every moving creature from water.

Thank you for attempting to clarify this. I am still not convinced because of the word "every" as I underlined in your statement. Had the passage said "out of water we made living things", then I would certainly agree with you that other living things could be made of no water. The word "every" (i.e. ALL without exception) in the passage makes your proposition invalid.

I agree with your points that God is not an example to be given since He is unlike anything...I also agree that the composition of the angels is unknown so I will not use them either as an example. Please define in your understanding what you consider as being living so we can explore this concept further.

I think that as brother Maxq showed using the passages of the great reading that "living" has to do with feeling or awareness of certain things. However, even creatures that are not "living" in this sense can have some kind of consciousness. For example, we hear in the great reading of the mountains having certain consciousness and having free choice.

We also hear in the great reading about people having their own hands testify against them on the day of the account. The hands although sharing the same "living" as us seem to have separate consciousness to a certain degree and while they are linked to us and their consciousness seems to be one with us in this world, it will be detached in the hereafter and it will witness against humans (see 3665). One can take this logic from hands further to cells, molecules, electrons, and even brainwaves. I think that it comes down to asking yourself are those creatures of the god that are made to obey us or are they us. Are we the sum of all those things or is there more? Is it those things that define us or is it the "more" that defines us?

We hear similar kind of witnessing against humans by the "jinn" who like the hands are linked to the humans in 5027-29. I see "jinn" to be like "hands". They are linked to us and seem to be part of us but have separate consciousness and in the hereafter this separate consciousness will become apparent. Thus, I see "jinn" as what seems to be a part of us (but is in fact a separate non-living consciousness) that allows us to make the following things that Solomon was making

Enclosures.
Statues.
Pools.
Containers.

Just walk into any house and look at those things. You will see that enclosures or niches are beautifully adorned, statues are artistic, pools or fountains are made to add a creative and sophisticated touch, our containers from vases to beautiful china are nicely decorated. All those things require a high degree of creativity and artistry to make. So "jinn" is the part that gives us this ability. It is a creature that like our hands is linked to us and seems to be part of us but is in reality a separate consciousness that gives us the ability to be creative. This vibrating brainwave creature made of energy is what gives us our imagination or creativity or fantasy.

For all intents and purposes this creature can be considered our imagination or creativity or fantasy. It should have obeyed us in 234. We know that it didn't and instead it is trying to have control over us. Thus, although our imagination/fantasy can help us make beautiful things, it is also the cause of all our crimes and transgression. The fantasy of easy money controlling the human is the reason why thieves steal. Sexual fantasies control the rapist or the child molester. People fantasizing that a statue has power is the reason why they worship it. People fantasies about glory and domination is what triggers wars and destruction. In fact, you can trace the root cause of all corruptions to this interaction between humans and fantasies where the fantasy has taken control over the human. What happens when fantasy takes control? We deviate from reality, the truth. The god is the truth. So we deviate from the path of the god.

Demons, ghosts, and other mythical creatures are the products of the fantasy so in a way they are fantasies. So you are not far from the truth. You just need to readjust your perspective and make it grounded in reality/truth.

I hope this helps to encourage further discussions.

Peace,

Ayman