Root Kaf-Waw-Nun in 4:102

loli

Salamun aAlaikum brothers and sisters of free minds,

Wa-itha kunta feehim faaqamta lahumu alssalata faltaqum ta-ifatun minhum maAAaka walya/khuthoo aslihatahum fa-itha sajadoo falyakoonoo min wara-ikum walta/ti ta-ifatun okhra lam yusalloo falyusalloo maAAaka walya/khuthoo hithrahum waaslihatahum wadda allatheena kafaroo law taghfuloona AAan aslihatikum waamtiAAatikum fayameeloona AAalaykum maylatan wahidatan wala junaha AAalaykum in kana bikum athan min matarin aw kuntum marda an tadaAAoo aslihatakum wakhuthoo hithrakum inna Allaha aAAadda lilkafireena AAathaban muheenan

M.Ahmed/Samira
4102 And if you were in them, so you started for them the prayer, so a group from them should stand with you, and they should take their weapons/arms, so if they prostrated, so they be from behind you, and another group should come (that) they did not pray, so they pray (E) with you, and they should take their caution, and their weapons/arms; those who disbelieved, wished if you ignore/neglect your weapons/arms, and your belongings/effects/goods, so they lean on you one bend, and no offense/guilt (is) on you if mild harm was with you from rain or you were sick/diseased, that you lay your weapons/arms, and take your caution, that God prepared to the disbelievers a degrading/humiliating torture.

I would like to verify the root word for the highlighted transliteration. Is it Kaf-Waw-Nun? I have checked with Project root list and A concordance, 4102 is not listed in root kaf-waw-nun. If so what is the root for the bolded transliteration?

I also would like some comments regarding the verse itself falyakoonoo min wara-ikum. Does this verse mentioned that the 1st group who prayed with "you" have to move backwards behind "you" after they have prostrated?

Seeking for comments and verification from brothers and sisters here.

salam.

Samia

falyakoonoo is in fact three words; that's why you did not find its root.

fa so
l is a tool of command for the second and third person, the verb that follows it is in the jussive.

yakoonoo Originally yakoonoon; but as it is in the jussive, the "nuun" is eliminated

falyakoonoo so they should be
min waraa'ikum behind you (waraa' behind; kum you)

loli

falyakoonoo is in fact three words; that's why you did not find its root.

fa so
l is a tool of command for the second and third person, the verb that follows it is in the jussive.

yakoonoo Originally yakoonoon; but as it is in the jussive, the "nuun" is eliminated

Salam Samia,

Thanks for the input, appreciate it, can i know what is the root word yahoonoo, checked with Hans Wehr, it point to root alif-lam-ya-ka-waw-nun it points to Kaf-Waw-Nun.

However checked with PRL and Hanna E Kassis concordance 4102 is not included in root kaf-waw-nun. Appreciate you could iron out the ambiguities here.

falyakoonoo so they should be
min waraa'ikum behind you (waraa' behind; kum you)

I believe that min waraa'ikum means "Of behind you" or "From behind you" correct me if im wrong.

salam

Samia

The root is Kaf Wau Noon.

You are right. Min is from, so it is "from behind you".

it point to root alif-lam-ya-ka-waw-nun
confused

Wakas

peace loli, samia, all,

loli, you may find the following post useful
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3896.msg50177#msg50177

Also, DofQ states the root is "Kaf-Alif-Nun", p500 if you have it. Sometimes the vowels in roots can be interchanged Alif/Waw/Ya. This caught me out a few times.

Samia, I have discussed this sign with mq and got some variations

so/then they are of/from behind them
so/then they should be behind them
so/then they are of/from behind you
so/then they should be behind you

Which is the most accurate?

The reason I ask is that it may have an impact on the physical positioning of the people mentioned.

Thanks,
Wakas

loli

Salaam Samia,

Thanx for verifying

Salam Wakas,

Thanx for the suggestion, acctually i was hoping that you would chip in..;
Anyway thanx for the link. appriciate our ideas.

fal - so/then they
yakunu - were/will be/would be
min - from/of
waraa' - behind
kum - you

Samia, I have discussed this sign with mq and got some variations

so/then they are of/from behind them
so/then they should be behind them
so/then they are of/from behind you
so/then they should be behind you

from the list of posible translation that you gave, i notice that you translated kum into "you" or "them". As per my understanding current the arabic form for "them" is hum, how can this option comes in the picture?

My understanding currently when the 1st group have SJD(passed tense), the 1st group have to move behind "you". Then the 2nd groups joins in with "you" for the yusallu.
Therefore if i can imagine this correctly, the 1st group is in one line with "you" in the salat, then after the 1st group have SJD, they will move behind "you" and and comes the 2nd group to join the line.

However this will not sync with the traditional fear prayer found in hadiths, any feedback on the physical position in appriciated.

salam.

p/s Wakas Since we are syncronize with root Kaf-Waw-Nun or Kaf-Alif-Nun is in 4102, should it be added in PRL? Just a thought for future reference.

Wakas

peace loli,

Well I originally never paid attention to the "kum" until reading this thread. After speaking to mq, he said it was "them (plural)". Hence posting it here for clarification.

The reason I posted it was picked up by you

However this will not sync with the traditional fear prayer found in hadiths, any feedback on the physical position in appriciated.

Exactly, hence trying to clarify exactly what is being said.

I will add 4102 in brackets at this stage under the root.

Wakas

Samia

Salaam Wakas

As a general rule, when the middle letter is an alif, grammarians believe that it may not be an original one, and might be turned from an original "ya" or "wau". In the case of "kaana ", it is most probably derived from "kawn being, and is used to mean universe in MSA". Then we have the present/future tense yakuun , and the short "u" vowel after the kaaf in the prefixed past tense kuntum; kuntu; kunta..etc. The wau exists more than the alif; hence the root kaf wau nuun. In fact I never found it with the root kaf alif nuun.

But there is a kaf hamza nuun ka'ana which means "to become severe". It is a completely different word, and hardly used.

As for the four options, I would go with then they should be behind you. So they should be... gives the impression of "as a result, or therefore" which I do not feel.

And it is "you, plural" not "them".

Wakas

peace Samia,

Thanks for the clarification.

As a general rule, when the middle letter is an alif, grammarians believe that it may not be an original one, and might be turned from an original "ya" or "wau". In the case of "kaana ", it is most probably derived from "kawn being, and is used to mean universe in MSA". Then we have the present/future tense yakuun , and the short "u" vowel after the kaaf in the prefixed past tense kuntum; kuntu; kunta..etc. The wau exists more than the alif; hence the root kaf wau nuun. In fact I never found it with the root kaf alif nuun.

But there is a kaf hamza nuun ka'ana which means "to become severe". It is a completely different word, and hardly used.

See p500 of DofQ for what I was referring to.

Yes, by "them" I should have meant "you (plural)".

So its "then they (1st group) should be behind you (plural)".

The question arises, does the plural "you" include the leader?

Wakas

Samia

What's DofQ ?

Wakas

"Dictionary of Quran" by Abdul Mannan Omar

http//www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Holy-Quran-Abdul-Mannan/dp/0963206796

Samia

Does it follow the root system? I ask because some modern dictionaries (like Al-Mawrid) don't, to make it easier for the non-native speakers, or native speakers who do not know the root system, to search for words.

If it does, I would say it is the only dictionary I heard of that puts the root for Kaana as kaf alif nuun

loli

Peace Samia,

"Dictionary of Quran" by Abdul Mannan Omar follows the root system.

Peace Wakas,

Yes, by "them" I should have meant "you (plural)".

So its "then they (1st group) should be behind you (plural)".

The question arises, does the plural "you" include the leader?

hmm.. since the kum is plural i think i have to change my understanding on this verse, Is there any way that i could verify kum is actually plural? whats the root word? i have access to hans wehr/DofQ and Mawrid.

fal - so/then they
yakunu - were/will be/would be
min - from/of
waraa' - behind
kum - ye

salam

loli

salam,

found it on page 496..thanx.

The question arises, does the plural "you" include the leader?

Wakas,
I assume that notice tht there is a "leader" mentioned in the verse because of lahumu

fa'aqamta - so thou establish
lahumu - for/to/unto them(plural?/dual?)
as-salata - the prayer

so the leader have to pray for/to/unto them? thats is a little bit odd is it? Is there any posibility that the "lahumu in the verse can be translated to "with them"?

salam

Wakas

peace loli,

Please note I am not necessarily looking at from a salat=prayer perspective. I just want to understand what the sign says first, then see what meaning fits.

You are right, it is "slw for/to/unto them", not "with", as far as I'm aware. My question "does the plural "you" include the leader?" was thrown out there to make people consider the possibilities. Some of them may be significant.

Wakas

Samia

"does the plural "you" include the leader?"

Which "you" in the plural?

The first "you" in the plural in this verse is ...attack you; there is no sin on you if, because of inconvenience of rain or sickness, to put away your arms; but take every precaution for yourselves.

loli

However in starting of 4102, "you" is singular

4102;
Wa-itha - And If
kunta - you(sing) be/were
feehim - in them

Correct me if im wrong;

Looks like there is a change in the refference for "you" in the end of 4101 and early 4102.

salam

loli

peace loli,

Please note I am not necessarily looking at from a salat=prayer perspective. I just want to understand what the sign says first, then see what meaning fits.

Noted

You are right, it is "slw for/to/unto them", not "with", as far as I'm aware. My question "does the plural "you" include the leader?" was thrown out there to make people consider the possibilities. Some of them may be significant.

falyakoonoo - so they be
min wara-ikum - from behind ye

I believe the plural "you" will include the leader, but who are "they"(bolded) in the verse refer to? is it the 1st group or the second group?

salam

Wakas

peace,

Yes, there is a change in "you" in the sign, because it takes into account the leader, 1st group and 2nd group.

"they" refers to 1st group.

loli

"they" refers to 1st group.

Peace,

falyakoonoo - so they(1st group) be
min wara-ikum - from behind ye(1st group+leader),

I think this interpretation doesnt fit well in the verse doesnt it? How can a group be behind the same group?unless we are talking with reference of position.

salam.