Root Kaf-Waw-Nun in 4:102

Samia

The root is Kaf Wau Noon.

You are right. Min is from, so it is "from behind you".

it point to root alif-lam-ya-ka-waw-nun
confused

Wakas

peace loli, samia, all,

loli, you may find the following post useful
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3896.msg50177#msg50177

Also, DofQ states the root is "Kaf-Alif-Nun", p500 if you have it. Sometimes the vowels in roots can be interchanged Alif/Waw/Ya. This caught me out a few times.

Samia, I have discussed this sign with mq and got some variations

so/then they are of/from behind them
so/then they should be behind them
so/then they are of/from behind you
so/then they should be behind you

Which is the most accurate?

The reason I ask is that it may have an impact on the physical positioning of the people mentioned.

Thanks,
Wakas

loli

Salaam Samia,

Thanx for verifying

Salam Wakas,

Thanx for the suggestion, acctually i was hoping that you would chip in..;
Anyway thanx for the link. appriciate our ideas.

fal - so/then they
yakunu - were/will be/would be
min - from/of
waraa' - behind
kum - you

Samia, I have discussed this sign with mq and got some variations

so/then they are of/from behind them
so/then they should be behind them
so/then they are of/from behind you
so/then they should be behind you

from the list of posible translation that you gave, i notice that you translated kum into "you" or "them". As per my understanding current the arabic form for "them" is hum, how can this option comes in the picture?

My understanding currently when the 1st group have SJD(passed tense), the 1st group have to move behind "you". Then the 2nd groups joins in with "you" for the yusallu.
Therefore if i can imagine this correctly, the 1st group is in one line with "you" in the salat, then after the 1st group have SJD, they will move behind "you" and and comes the 2nd group to join the line.

However this will not sync with the traditional fear prayer found in hadiths, any feedback on the physical position in appriciated.

salam.

p/s Wakas Since we are syncronize with root Kaf-Waw-Nun or Kaf-Alif-Nun is in 4102, should it be added in PRL? Just a thought for future reference.

Wakas

peace loli,

Well I originally never paid attention to the "kum" until reading this thread. After speaking to mq, he said it was "them (plural)". Hence posting it here for clarification.

The reason I posted it was picked up by you

However this will not sync with the traditional fear prayer found in hadiths, any feedback on the physical position in appriciated.

Exactly, hence trying to clarify exactly what is being said.

I will add 4102 in brackets at this stage under the root.

Wakas

Samia

Salaam Wakas

As a general rule, when the middle letter is an alif, grammarians believe that it may not be an original one, and might be turned from an original "ya" or "wau". In the case of "kaana ", it is most probably derived from "kawn being, and is used to mean universe in MSA". Then we have the present/future tense yakuun , and the short "u" vowel after the kaaf in the prefixed past tense kuntum; kuntu; kunta..etc. The wau exists more than the alif; hence the root kaf wau nuun. In fact I never found it with the root kaf alif nuun.

But there is a kaf hamza nuun ka'ana which means "to become severe". It is a completely different word, and hardly used.

As for the four options, I would go with then they should be behind you. So they should be... gives the impression of "as a result, or therefore" which I do not feel.

And it is "you, plural" not "them".

Wakas

peace Samia,

Thanks for the clarification.

As a general rule, when the middle letter is an alif, grammarians believe that it may not be an original one, and might be turned from an original "ya" or "wau". In the case of "kaana ", it is most probably derived from "kawn being, and is used to mean universe in MSA". Then we have the present/future tense yakuun , and the short "u" vowel after the kaaf in the prefixed past tense kuntum; kuntu; kunta..etc. The wau exists more than the alif; hence the root kaf wau nuun. In fact I never found it with the root kaf alif nuun.

But there is a kaf hamza nuun ka'ana which means "to become severe". It is a completely different word, and hardly used.

See p500 of DofQ for what I was referring to.

Yes, by "them" I should have meant "you (plural)".

So its "then they (1st group) should be behind you (plural)".

The question arises, does the plural "you" include the leader?

Wakas

Samia

What's DofQ ?

Wakas

"Dictionary of Quran" by Abdul Mannan Omar

http//www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Holy-Quran-Abdul-Mannan/dp/0963206796

Samia

Does it follow the root system? I ask because some modern dictionaries (like Al-Mawrid) don't, to make it easier for the non-native speakers, or native speakers who do not know the root system, to search for words.

If it does, I would say it is the only dictionary I heard of that puts the root for Kaana as kaf alif nuun

loli

Peace Samia,

"Dictionary of Quran" by Abdul Mannan Omar follows the root system.

Peace Wakas,

Yes, by "them" I should have meant "you (plural)".

So its "then they (1st group) should be behind you (plural)".

The question arises, does the plural "you" include the leader?

hmm.. since the kum is plural i think i have to change my understanding on this verse, Is there any way that i could verify kum is actually plural? whats the root word? i have access to hans wehr/DofQ and Mawrid.

fal - so/then they
yakunu - were/will be/would be
min - from/of
waraa' - behind
kum - ye

salam

loli

salam,

found it on page 496..thanx.

The question arises, does the plural "you" include the leader?

Wakas,
I assume that notice tht there is a "leader" mentioned in the verse because of lahumu

fa'aqamta - so thou establish
lahumu - for/to/unto them(plural?/dual?)
as-salata - the prayer

so the leader have to pray for/to/unto them? thats is a little bit odd is it? Is there any posibility that the "lahumu in the verse can be translated to "with them"?

salam

Wakas

peace loli,

Please note I am not necessarily looking at from a salat=prayer perspective. I just want to understand what the sign says first, then see what meaning fits.

You are right, it is "slw for/to/unto them", not "with", as far as I'm aware. My question "does the plural "you" include the leader?" was thrown out there to make people consider the possibilities. Some of them may be significant.

Wakas

Samia

"does the plural "you" include the leader?"

Which "you" in the plural?

The first "you" in the plural in this verse is ...attack you; there is no sin on you if, because of inconvenience of rain or sickness, to put away your arms; but take every precaution for yourselves.

loli

However in starting of 4102, "you" is singular

4102;
Wa-itha - And If
kunta - you(sing) be/were
feehim - in them

Correct me if im wrong;

Looks like there is a change in the refference for "you" in the end of 4101 and early 4102.

salam

loli

peace loli,

Please note I am not necessarily looking at from a salat=prayer perspective. I just want to understand what the sign says first, then see what meaning fits.

Noted

You are right, it is "slw for/to/unto them", not "with", as far as I'm aware. My question "does the plural "you" include the leader?" was thrown out there to make people consider the possibilities. Some of them may be significant.

falyakoonoo - so they be
min wara-ikum - from behind ye

I believe the plural "you" will include the leader, but who are "they"(bolded) in the verse refer to? is it the 1st group or the second group?

salam

Wakas

peace,

Yes, there is a change in "you" in the sign, because it takes into account the leader, 1st group and 2nd group.

"they" refers to 1st group.

loli

"they" refers to 1st group.

Peace,

falyakoonoo - so they(1st group) be
min wara-ikum - from behind ye(1st group+leader),

I think this interpretation doesnt fit well in the verse doesnt it? How can a group be behind the same group?unless we are talking with reference of position.

salam.

Wakas

peace all,

Some diagrams of the starting positions (however it makes sense that the end positions would mirror the start positions, the only difference being the switch in groups)

http//img82.imageshack.us/img82/6018/slwaoy6.jpg
Clearly, diagram A supports a non-prayer, more like an oration.

http//img121.imageshack.us/img121/728/slwbzm5.jpg
Lets say diagram B represents an act such as prayer, can anyone see any flaws in terms of defence?

Any other comments?