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  4. People of The Elephant - But Who?

People of The Elephant - But Who?

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  • M Offline
    M Offline
    maxq
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    DISCLAIMER

    Although I have researched this topic and formulated a hypothesis that can be backed by evidence, this is analysis and opinion of a single individual...

    I am only human and am prone to mistakes in judgement. It is better if the reader verifies the information I am presenting. I would be glad if someone corrects me if I have made a mistake.


    People of The Elephant - But Who?

    According to traditional Muslim belief, there is an extraordinary story about a powerful military general's expedition to Mecca in the year the exalted prophet was born. This powerful leader, whose name was Abraha ? king of Saba, Hadramawt and Yamen ? is believed to have been killed by the Meccans, and his army humiliated when he launched an attack on the Ka'bah. As amazing as this story is, we observe that the Quran seems to mention this event as well, or so the traditionalists contend. Nonetheless, it would be vital to validate this event and determine its authenticity.

    In the 700's AD onwards, there seem to have been two dominant forces within the Muslim geopolitical framework The Abbasids (backed by remainders of the Sassanids/Persians/Zoroasterians) and the Ummaiyads or banu-Ummaiyah. Both groups are of Arab decent, notably from the Hijaz.

    To assert their legitimacy, the bani-Hashim, who would later become the Abbasids, start to promote the the victory of the Arabs lead by Abdul-Muttalib against Abraha... The Abbasids officially base their claim to the caliphate on their descent from Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib This alone is a clear indication as to why they would be inclined to promote an event such as this.

    Abbasid Account
    According to this story, Abraha, Governor or King of Yemen built a great church at Sanaa in honor of his ally the Negus, a Christian Abyssinian Emperor. The church gained widespread fame, even gaining the notice of the Byzantines. The pagan Arabs of the time had their own center of religious worship and pilgrimage in Mecca, the Kaaba. Abraha then proceeded to attempt to divert their pilgrimage to his new cathedral and is reported to have appointed and sent a Muhammad Khuza'i to Mecca and the Hijaz as a king with a message that his church was both much better than their house of worship and purer, having not been defiled by the housing of idols.

    Abraha, incensed, launched an expedition of 40,000 men against the Kaaba at Mecca led by a white elephant (and possibly with other elephants) in order to destroy the Kaaba. Several Arab tribes attempted to fight him on the way, but were defeated.

    Other sources state that Abraha's elephant couldn't make further steps into Mecca. Neither force nor dissuasion would make it advance towards Mecca. If they turned him towards Syria or Yemen, it would walk in haste but when he was turned towards the Kaaba, it would kneel on its knees as if it would adore the city that its master was intent on destroying.

    As Abraha neared Mecca, he sent them an emissary, telling them that he would not fight them if they did not resist his destruction of the Kaaba. Abdul Muttalib, the chief of Quraysh, responded that he would defend his own property, but God would defend His house, the Kaaba, and withdrew with his people. The next day, as Abraha prepared to enter the city, swarms of birds carrying small rocks came and bombarded the Ethiopian forces; each man that was hit was killed, and they fled in panic, as Abraha died a horrible death. The tribes saw this as a sign of the Kaaba's holiness. According to the Abbasid account, this incident took place in 570 C.E. when the exalted Messenger was born; this year was commemorated as the "Aam-il Feel" (Year of the Elephant).

    A Relatively More Realistic Scenario
    Research conducted by Hamiduddin Farahi, Amin Ahsan Islahi and G.A.Parwez on the account of "Year of the Elephant" seems to be a bit less mystical. The Arabs had been alerted by some travelers about the enemy's capabilities. They hence were prepared to put up a good fight through various improvised tricks, which helped them scare the elephants. The beasts, in turn, panicked and trampled the enemy soldiers. The event carried such significance that the Arabs, in their Calendar, marked it "Aam-il Feel" as a point of reference in history.

    Qadisiyyah, 636 AD Elephants Confuse Arab Cavalry?
    Let us go to a point in time when the Muslim civilization was expanding rapidly in its early stages. An extremely perplexing account in early Muslim conquests is that of the battle of Qadisiyyah. This battle was fought against the Sassanid/Pehlavi forces in 636 AD. The Persian army's war elephants terrified the Arab cavalry, and succeeded in creating mass confusion among the Arab fighters for two days straight. By the third day of battle, the Muslim army succeeded in frightening the Persian elephants through various improvised tricks. When an Arab warrior succeeded in slaying the lead elephant, the rest fled into the rear and trampled the enemy soldiers. The Arabs continued to advance their attacks during the night.

    It seems rather strange that the Muslim army (that had overrun so many areas before advancing to Persia) was initially perplexed by war elephants in this way. The Arabs were lead by a tribe that had supposedly destroyed Abraha's elephant backed army. If they did, then why were they so terrified of war elephants as if they never saw such beasts in action before? Consider the fact that it took them three days to figure out how to tackle elephants! If they had fought an army with elephants before, they would have heard of stories that included the tricks they used to fight and defeat Abraha. The tactics used by the Arab army seem to have been improvised on the Qadissiyyah battle, and were certainly not rules of thumb. Why would they have not learned from the accounts from the battle of Mecca? Why does it seem that Qadisiyyah is where Arabs fought an army with elephants for the first time?

    History of War Elephants
    To add to the confusion, it would be worthwhile at this stage to first list some notable battles involving elephants. These battles include

    331 BC, Battle of Gaugamela
    326 BC, Battle of the Hydaspes River
    317 BC, Battle of Paraitacene
    316 BC, Battle of Gabiene
    312 BC, Battle of Gaza
    301 BC, Battle of Ipsus
    280 BC, Battle of Heraclea
    279 BC, Battle of Asculum
    275 BC, Battle of Beneventum
    262 BC, Siege of Agrigentum
    255 BC, Battle of Tunis
    252 BC, Siege of Panoramus
    238 BC, Battle of Utica
    238 BC, Battle of "The Saw"
    239 BC, Battle of the Bagradas River
    219 BC, Siege of Saguntum
    218 BC, Crossing of the Alps and the Battle of Trebia
    217 BC, Battle of Raphia
    207 BC, Battle of the Metaurus
    202 BC, Battle of Zama
    190 BC, Battle of Magnesia
    164 BC, Battle of Beth-zur
    153 BC, Roman siege of Numantia (Spain)
    149 BC, Siege of Carthage
    108 BC, Battle of Muthul
    46 BC, Battle of Thapsus
    451 AD, Battle of Vartanantz
    636 AD, Battle of al-Qdisiyyah
    1214 AD, capture of Cremona by Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor
    1659 AD, Battle of Khajwa
    1556 AD, Second battle of Panipat
    1761 AD, Third battle of Panipat

    Are we missing something? Think and think again ... 570 AD! Where is the battle that took place at Mecca? We are told in traditional stories of how a tribe of bedouin turned an army backed by elephants into half eaten fodder! This battle should have been one of the decisive battles in the history of elephant warfare! Yet, the Islamic mark is made in elephant wars with the Battle of Qadisyyah.

    "Aam-il Feel" is supposed to be the turning point in Mecca's history, and possibly the advent of Islam itself. Why would there be no mention of this battle when the Quraish tribe is supposed to have decisively won against Abraha's cavalry? Did he use any elephants at all? This is a paradigm shattering question that one is confronted with when the above arguments are presented.

    Commemoration of Abraha's Expedition No Elephants?
    An inscription was recently discovered in Southern Arabia, that commemorates the expeditions lead by Abraha. This inscription seems to be telling a story quite to the contrary to the Arabian accounts. Following is the transcribed message and its translation.

    Transcription
    "bi khayl Rahmanan wa masyha malikan Abraha Zybman malik Saba' wa Zuraydan wa Hadramut wa Yement wa r'a rab hamw twadam wa thamat satro zn satran k'ghazow ma'ndam ghazwatn rab'atan b'warkhan Zthbatan Kafa saadu kl bani amrm wa zaki malikn abjabar b ainam kadat wain w basharm bin hasahanm bainm san dam wa mardam wa hadaru qadami jayshan alia bani yamram kadat wail bi wad samrakh wa mardam wa sadam bi wad bi manhaj tarban wa zabahow wa sarw wa ghanamw zaisam wa makhdah malakin bi Halban wa dawn ka zalam maidam wrahanw wa badanahaw nwa sa'aham mw Amram Bin Mazran wa rahanamw bin haw wa sata khalafw ala ma'dam wa qafalw bin hal ( bi)n bi akhayal Rahmanan wa rakhaw zalan salthany w sathya ws."

    Translation
    "With the power of the Almighty, and His Messiah King Abraha Zeebman, the King of Saba'a, Zuridan, and Hadrmaut and Yemen and the tribes (on) the mountains and the coast wrote these lines on his battle against the tribe of Ma'ad (in) the battle of al-Rabiya in the month of "Dhu al Thabithan" and fought all of Bani A'amir and appointed the King Abi Jabar with Kinda and Al, Bishar bin Hasan with Sa'ad, Murad, and Hadarmaut in front of the army against Bani Amir of Kinda. and Al in Zu Markh valley and Murad and Sa'ad in Manha valley on the way to Turban and killed and captured and took the booty in large quantities and the King and fought at Halban and reached Ma'ad and took booty and prisoners, and after that, conquered Omro bin al-Munzir. (Abrha) appointed the son (of Omro) as the ruler and returned from Hal Ban (Halban) with the power of the Almighty in the month of Zu A'allan in the year sixty-two and six hundred."

    The above inscription raises a vital question in the account of Abraha's expedition. Where is the mention of the elephants he supposedly used? And if there were no elephants used, then why or how would the year of the exalted prophet's birth be commemorated as the "Year of the Elephant"? Was there really such an event or was it fabricated for some reason?

    Now, let us try to imagine an elephant trying to make its way from Yamen to Mecca. Even horses are fragile enough that they have to be fed camel butter to keep cool and hydrated in the Arabian desert. Think of an elephant trying to brave the travel, especially when it feeds on tons of leaves and vegetation after every mile. Furthermore, an elephant stays in the shade or in pools of water, and even pours mud on itself to keep cool. The scorching hot sand is hardly something even the African desert elephant would be inclined to put on itself. If Abraha used elephants in his expedition, could they have survived in the harsh weather conditions of the Arabian desert? Simply put, to have elephants make their way from Yemen to Mecca would be quite an arduous task given the harsh conditions, all the more reason for the absense of elephants from the inscription being a vital indicator that no elephants were used.

    Moreover, the expedition by Abraha ended with his victory and return to his capital according to the inscription. This is almost two decades before the alleged "Year of the Elephant". There is no mention of a second expedition in historic accounts, which means he must have fought and defeated every Arab tribe he came across. Further, it concludes that if the Meccans fought against Abraha at Mecca, they were decisively defeated by him.

    The above inscription is irrefutable evidence that would send shivers down the spine of a traditionalist. Furthermore, Chapter 105 speaks of the "People of the Elephant" and certainly not Abraha's army. A logical question hence follows Who were these mysterious people the Quran speaks of?

    Quranic Evidence
    In order to understand Chapter 105 of the Quran, one must resort to Tasreef The science of extracting the context of a verse by examining other similar verses in the Quran. This is extremely necessary since traditional accounts seem to be, at best, laced with riddles. It can be observed that the style and tone of verses in Chapter 105 is extremely similar to other instances in the Quran. All these instances seem to be indicating different peoples living either in the same geographical location, or in close proximity. These peoples are none other than 'Aad, Thamud and the nation of Salih.

    896 Ever considered what your Lord did to ?Aad?
    897 (City of) Irum, with the great columns?
    898 The one which was like no other in the land?
    899 And Thamud who carved the rocks in the valley?
    and
    5416 Then see how was My Requital after My warnings!
    5418 The tribe of Aad had also belied the Message. Then see how was My retribution after My warnings!
    5419 Behold, We sent raging winds upon them on a day of relentless misery.
    5423 Thamud also rejected the warnings.
    5430 Then see how was My retribution after My warnings!
    5433 Lot?s folk rejected warnings.
    5434 Behold, We sent a storm of fiery stones on them, except the family of Lot whom We saved at dawn.
    and
    1181 The visiting Messengers said, "O Lot! Behold, we are Messengers of your Lord. Never shall they follow your guidance nor shall be able to catch up to you. Depart then, with your household and followers, while it is yet night. Leave this land never to look back again. Except your wife for, what befalls the people will befall her as well. Their appointed time is the morning, and isn?t the morning near? (She stays behind because she has chosen to go along with the trends of the times. And she is among those who remain silent at the prevalent wrongdoing).
    1182 And so, when Our Command came to pass, We brought low the highly arrogant towns (Sodom and Gomorrah), and rained down upon them hard devastating rocks (from the volcano).
    and
    1574 And We turned the towns upside down and showered upon them hard heated rocks.
    1575 Therein verily are lessons for those who read the signs.
    1576 And behold, those towns (Sodom and Gomorrah) stood by a road that still exists.
    1577 Verily, herein lies a message indeed for those who believe.

    It can immediately be observed that the tone and propositional query style of verses 896-9, 5416-34, 1181-92 and 1574-77 put together is identical to chapter 105. In fact Surat-ul Feel seems to be a wrap up for the accounts in the above mentioned chapters. Furthermore, the geographical area being spoken of in the above verses is that of the regions close to the Dead Sea, notably Petra, Sodom and Gomorrah.

    From Whom did Nabataeans Inherit Petra?
    As discussed in the previous section, the various verses in the Quran state that Thamud inherited the city of 'Aad. 'Aad were the people of the prophet Hud. These people were a powerful nation whose homes are still visible according to 4115 and 2938. Their main city as explained in 896-7 was Irum that featured great columns.

    After their destruction, the Thamud took over the region; they used to carve homes in the mountains, and was a military community that boasted its might according to 5350-51, 774, 8517-18. Their homes are still stand according to 2938. Since Sodom and Gomorrah is also mentioned, then the city of lofty columns and stone carved homes is none other than the location of Petra.

    One can almost see light at the end of the tunnel, but an important question still remains If Chapter 105 refers to the people who lived in the Petra, then how are they supposed to be ?The People of The Elephant?? One would invariably have to start depending on archaeological evidence to connect the dots.

    Columns with Elephant Heads in Petra?
    Archaeologists, in 1921, published their survey of the remains of the city of Petra. In this publication, archaeologists discovered ruins of a large building was discovered that is now believed to be the royal court on the south side of the city. This building (and the city at large) features huge columns (897) that were decorated with elephant heads (1051). The elephant colums and their story is yet to be studied in detail, but it seems clear that the symbol of the elephant was used as a symbol of might and power.

    Be that as it may, recent excavations in Petra beside the Royal Court have revealed what used to be a public pool and surrounding gardens. Previously this area was thought to have been a market place, because it was wide and open. Another great feature of the city is that many of its monuments have been carved out in rocks. The builders of Petra seem to have a knack for stone carved monuments (899).

    Petra (from the Latin word 'petrae', meaning 'rock&#039 lies in a great rift valley east of Wadi 'Araba in Jordan about 80 kilometers south of the Dead Sea. Nabataeans moved into this area in the first three hundred years of the first millennium BC, and seem to have inherited such monuments as well. Perhaps these constructs were their inspiration to rise to greatness, and this could very well be the reason why this area and its mysterious people are mentioned so many times in the Quran. Their legends must have been popular throughout Arabia. Is it not this region and its past peoples that have been alluded to in Chapter 105 of the Quran all along?

    Conclusion
    We can successfully derive three extremely important conclusions with this discussion

    1. From the analysis in the paper, we can clearly see that "Aam-il Feel" is not 570 AD, but could very well be 636 AD when Arab forces defeated the elephant backed army of the Sassanids. The now-traditional account of "Aam-il Feel" is an Abbasid fabrication. It seems that in their selfish desire to legitimize their rule, they manipulated the facts of a historic battle to concoct an imaginary event, and even twisted the interpretation of a Quranic chapter to make this event look believable.

    2. It is clear that the battle of Mecca, if it was ever fought against Abraha, ended in defeat for the Arabs in the 6th Century AD. The very name Mecca in classical Arabic means "destruction", so there is a possibility that Abraha left the city in ruins by the time he was through.

    3. Further, if the above two points are the real deal, then the traditional translation of Chapter 105 of the Quran is grossly incorrect. It points to a different peoples in a different time and location of Arabia, notebly the region near the Dead Sea. This is the same region discussed in preceeding sections. Surat-ul Feel is indeed a wrap up for the accounts of 'Aad, Thamud and the nation of Salih throughout the Quran; the correct rendition would hence be as follows

    Did (you) not consider how your Lord dealt with the people of the elephant?

    Did not (His Requital) turn (them to naught) for their practices (that were consistantly) in gross error?

    And (that your Lord first) sent upon them -one after another- (His) messengers (Lot, Hud and Salih? Yet they cast His Warnings behind their backs as if they knew not!)

    (Hence, He ultimately) declared for them punishment from the inscribed (law of cause and effect!)

    And so, turned them to (the likes of) fodder, consumed; (for only their remains can now be seen!)

    References

    1. http//www.mnh.si.edu/EPIGRAPHY/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
    2. http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/language.htm
    3. http//www.dacb.org/stories/ethiopia/_abraha.html
    4. http//nabataea.net/rcourts.html
    5. http//www.brown.edu/Departments/Anthropology/Petra
    6. John Keegan, Pimlico. History of Warfare. (1993) ISBN 0-679-73082-6
    7. Ahmad, Shabbir. Quran as It Explains Itself, 2nd Ed. Galaxy Publications, USA, 2005
    8. Bellamy, J. "A New Reading of the Namarah Inscription," Journal of the American Oriental Society, 1985, 105.1, 34
      8 Tabar, Ab Ja`far Muhammad. The Battle of al-Qdisiyyah and the conquest of Syria and Palestine. Edited and translated by Yohanan Friedmann. SUNY series in Near Eastern studies. Albany State University of New York Press, 1992.
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    • LaythL Offline
      LaythL Offline
      Layth
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Salam,

      Very probable and possible.

      If you don`t mind, I would like to post the article on the site.

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      • M Offline
        M Offline
        maxq
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        That would be an honour Layth. You can get the pictures of the Petra monuments and the elephant columns from my blog
        http//maxq-reflection.blogspot.com/2006/12/people-of-elephant-but-who.html

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        • LaythL Offline
          LaythL Offline
          Layth
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Salam,

          I will get the pics and put it together.

          Btw, have you read the find a couple of months back on the remains of a Giant Camel that was found somewhere in Syria. It is dated 100,000 years and is a species that has never been known before this find.

          I found the following quote intersting

          A group of humans apparently killed the camel while it was drinking from a spring, said Tensorer, adding that 100,000-year-old human remains were discovered nearby at the once water-rich site in the desert steppe.

          http//www.rawmeat.com/link.php?id=8153
          http//www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1757860.htm

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          • S Offline
            S Offline
            savage_carrot
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Okay, had a chance to go through the post max, comments follow

            Now, let us try to imagine an elephant trying to make its way from Yamen to Mecca. Even horses are fragile enough that they have to be fed camel butter to keep cool and hydrated in the Arabian desert. Think of an elephant trying to brave the travel, especially when it feeds on tons of leaves and vegetation after every mile. Furthermore, an elephant stays in the shade or in pools of water, and even pours mud on itself to keep cool. The scorching hot sand is hardly something even the African desert elephant would be inclined to put on itself. If Abraha used elephants in his expedition, could they have survived in the harsh weather conditions of the Arabian desert?

            This I thought was a weakish point, because we don't know how the weather then was exactly or if they had a route of oases that they would follow through the desert making it easy on the elephants etc. Links like these would show that they could survive for longer periods in between water. It doesn't affect your premise once again but I thought I would mention it as being a tad off imo. Maybe change it to something succint as 'to have elephants make their way from Yemen to Mecca would be quite an arduous task given the harsh conditions' or something equally concise that doesn't force impossibilities on the readers yet gives them a neutral feel of the difficulty involved.

            This is a paradigm shattering question that one is alluded to with the above arguments.

            This sentence should be 'that one is confronted with by the above arguments'. Alluded doesn't work here.

            I thought it was a very well done article overall. I can't wait to read what you come up with next D

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            • T Offline
              T Offline
              thegod
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              maxq wrote
              History of War Elephants
              To add to the confusion, it would be worthwhile at this stage to first list some notable battles involving elephants. These battles include

              interesting article! -)

              ...could u reference the list of some "notable battles"? if the reference is already in the list (of references) u provided, could u let me know which 1? -)

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              • T Offline
                T Offline
                thegod
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                ...could u reference the list of some "notable battles"? if the reference is already in the list (of references) u provided, could u let me know which 1? -)

                okay...never mind the reference bro....an interesting hypothesis all the same! -)

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                • M Offline
                  M Offline
                  maxq
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Hi thegod, you can check out "History of Warfare" by John Keegan... Elephants were considered a symbol of power and might, and hence you can see epigraphy of battles with a special focus on elephants used in war. There is no such indication in Abraha's inscription, and this alone is a major indicator that he did/could not use elephants even if he wanted to. Simply put, here's a guy who is boasting about his expedition Why would he have not mentioned elephants if he used them?

                  Dear savage_carrot, I will make the correction to the allusion for sure I think I was too sleepy when I wrote the paper lol

                  The link you provided raises a good argument. I think however, that as big and abominable elephants appear, they are quite fragile creatures. A slight infection to even the elephant toe can cause serious complications for the beast. Moreso, compared to the body weight, an elephant's feet are not designed to tread through sand dunes and what if there were sand storms? A horse or camel could be forced to run for a long distance so that one could find shelter to survive. What would you do if you had an elephant with you? The poor creature would simply be doomed.

                  Moreso, during the second world war, European soldiers stationed in the desert used the expression that it was so hot, they could fry their eggs on their tanks. Saudi Arabian desert is in the harsher desert categories. Consider a poor bulky elephant in that situation, whether mobile or stationary.

                  Also, if Abraha's army was travelling at night, they could have used the stars for navigation, but again, there is no mention of nightly travel or star-based navigation in the inscription so we do not know...

                  I feel however, that your suggestion is very useful I am making this change.

                  Dr. Ayman raised a very good point in his email to me. If we trace the path of Abraha's expedition according to the inscription, he completely avoided the path to Mecca, and probably never even bothered to visit the city/settlement/village, whatever it may have been called before it was called Mecca... That would be a really scary thought for a traditionalist!

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                  • M Offline
                    M Offline
                    maxq
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    Layth, very interesting indeed! I am reading info you gave the links to... seems like these are remains of the 'missing link' between a Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens. Also, the use of flint is an indicator that it was used for either a spear or a knife. If used as a spear, then it may not be a true homo sapien, since modern man made his appearance with the antler tipped spear, and was a much more effective hunter than his predecessors. Perhaps there is more to be discovered by this team.

                    Definitely, the Middle East must have been a lush green forest with rivers and streams during and prior the ice age.

                    Very exciting!

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                    • T Offline
                      T Offline
                      thegod
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      maxq wrote
                      Hi thegod,

                      hi maxq! -)

                      you can check out "History of Warfare" by John Keegan...

                      yups bro...i did find the reference...but i appreciate ur pointing it out to me! -)

                      Elephants were considered a symbol of power and might, and hence you can see epigraphy of battles with a special focus on elephants used in war. There is no such indication in Abraha's inscription, and this alone is a major indicator that he did/could not use elephants even if he wanted to. Simply put, here's a guy who is boasting about his expedition Why would he have not mentioned elephants if he used them?

                      to be honest...i am least interested in abraha at the moment...he can wait! -)

                      ...what i am interested in, are the conclusions, which i believe were atleast somewhat influenced by the list! -)

                      to believe that no incident, as described by arab historians/traditions, took place, v would need conclusive evidence that indeed did no such incident take place! else it is simply a matter of preferring one history over another! -)

                      ....if v take the list, drawn from keegan's book as that evidence, or part of evidence, v would need to assume that he was able to get the entire "notable" history of the last 2300+ years...and get it right...which, i think u may agree, is a tall order! -)

                      at the very best, v can only assume that his list is accurate and exhaustive...and assumptions are, atleast for me, never the best approach, unless for the sake of hypothesis! -)

                      ....so what v have here, is a situation where v work on an assumption that his list of "notable battles" is worthy of being admitted as influential material! -)

                      as for keegan, in atleast some part of his research, he is seen by some (other historians) as biased, unreliable and inaccurate! the referenced book itself is not popular for reasons which u might want to look up! -)

                      ...also, his views on the "westerners" and "orientals" might be of interest! -S

                      to sum it up, v have little or no reason to believe the list is reliable as a reference! -)

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                      • M Offline
                        M Offline
                        maxq
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        I understand and appreciate your point of view bro )

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                        • S Offline
                          S Offline
                          savage_carrot
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          Dr. Ayman raised a very good point in his email to me. If we trace the path of Abraha's expedition according to the inscription, he completely avoided the path to Mecca, and probably never even bothered to visit the city/settlement/village, whatever it may have been called before it was called Mecca... That would be a really scary thought for a traditionalist!

                          Indeed it would, I hope you get some comments in your blog by some extremely irate traditionalists that you can then share with us

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                          • T Offline
                            T Offline
                            thegod
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            maxq wrote
                            I understand and appreciate your point of view bro

                            and i appreciate ur allowing me the opportunity! -)

                            however, coming back to quran and "ashabalfeel" or people of the elephant....yemen's proximity to ethiopia is definitely interesting! -)

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                              maxq
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              please enlighten me )

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                                maxq
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                And that Mecca is less than 100km away from the Red Sea coast... what else...

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                                  thegod
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  maxq wrote
                                  please enlighten me

                                  i already did...yemen's proximity to ethiopia...or r u already knew it? -)

                                  And that Mecca is less than 100km away from the Red Sea coast... what else...

                                  come again?

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                                    maxq
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    Oh, what I am trying to say is that a possible route is through the sea whereby Elephants can be transported in ships more easily than having dragged their behinds through the desert lol ) I am just considering the alternatives a military leader would be ready to undertake for an expedition.

                                    Mecca is about 80km away from the Red Sea so logically, one could have considered transporting elephants in ships from the Yameni coast to the coast nearest Mecca. Practicality is another issue.

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                                      thegod
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      maxq wrote
                                      Oh, what I am trying to say is that a possible route is through the sea whereby Elephants can be transported in ships more easily than having dragged their behinds through the desert lol I am just considering the alternatives a military leader would be ready to undertake for an expedition.

                                      oh ok...trying to think like a military leader...cool! -)

                                      Mecca is about 80km away from the Red Sea so logically, one could have considered transporting elephants in ships from the Yameni coast to the coast nearest Mecca. Practicality is another issue.

                                      no idea! -)

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                                        maxq
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        oh ok...trying to think like a military leader...cool! -)

                                        no idea! -)

                                        lol ... man the last thing I want to do is think like a military leader

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                                          thegod
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          maxq wrote
                                          lol ... man the last thing I want to do is think like a military leader

                                          lolz...u said u were "considering the alternatives a military leader would be ready to undertake for an expedition."...so i thut.....-S

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