People of The Elephant - But Who?
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Salam,
I will get the pics and put it together.
Btw, have you read the find a couple of months back on the remains of a Giant Camel that was found somewhere in Syria. It is dated 100,000 years and is a species that has never been known before this find.
I found the following quote intersting
A group of humans apparently killed the camel while it was drinking from a spring, said Tensorer, adding that 100,000-year-old human remains were discovered nearby at the once water-rich site in the desert steppe.http//www.rawmeat.com/link.php?id=8153
http//www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1757860.htm -
Okay, had a chance to go through the post max, comments follow
Now, let us try to imagine an elephant trying to make its way from Yamen to Mecca. Even horses are fragile enough that they have to be fed camel butter to keep cool and hydrated in the Arabian desert. Think of an elephant trying to brave the travel, especially when it feeds on tons of leaves and vegetation after every mile. Furthermore, an elephant stays in the shade or in pools of water, and even pours mud on itself to keep cool. The scorching hot sand is hardly something even the African desert elephant would be inclined to put on itself. If Abraha used elephants in his expedition, could they have survived in the harsh weather conditions of the Arabian desert?
This I thought was a weakish point, because we don't know how the weather then was exactly or if they had a route of oases that they would follow through the desert making it easy on the elephants etc. Links like these would show that they could survive for longer periods in between water. It doesn't affect your premise once again but I thought I would mention it as being a tad off imo. Maybe change it to something succint as 'to have elephants make their way from Yemen to Mecca would be quite an arduous task given the harsh conditions' or something equally concise that doesn't force impossibilities on the readers yet gives them a neutral feel of the difficulty involved.
This is a paradigm shattering question that one is alluded to with the above arguments.
This sentence should be 'that one is confronted with by the above arguments'. Alluded doesn't work here.
I thought it was a very well done article overall. I can't wait to read what you come up with next D
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maxq wrote
History of War Elephants
To add to the confusion, it would be worthwhile at this stage to first list some notable battles involving elephants. These battles includeinteresting article! -)
...could u reference the list of some "notable battles"? if the reference is already in the list (of references) u provided, could u let me know which 1? -)
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Hi thegod, you can check out "History of Warfare" by John Keegan... Elephants were considered a symbol of power and might, and hence you can see epigraphy of battles with a special focus on elephants used in war. There is no such indication in Abraha's inscription, and this alone is a major indicator that he did/could not use elephants even if he wanted to. Simply put, here's a guy who is boasting about his expedition Why would he have not mentioned elephants if he used them?
Dear savage_carrot, I will make the correction to the allusion for sure I think I was too sleepy when I wrote the paper lol
The link you provided raises a good argument. I think however, that as big and abominable elephants appear, they are quite fragile creatures. A slight infection to even the elephant toe can cause serious complications for the beast. Moreso, compared to the body weight, an elephant's feet are not designed to tread through sand dunes and what if there were sand storms? A horse or camel could be forced to run for a long distance so that one could find shelter to survive. What would you do if you had an elephant with you? The poor creature would simply be doomed.
Moreso, during the second world war, European soldiers stationed in the desert used the expression that it was so hot, they could fry their eggs on their tanks. Saudi Arabian desert is in the harsher desert categories. Consider a poor bulky elephant in that situation, whether mobile or stationary.
Also, if Abraha's army was travelling at night, they could have used the stars for navigation, but again, there is no mention of nightly travel or star-based navigation in the inscription so we do not know...
I feel however, that your suggestion is very useful I am making this change.
Dr. Ayman raised a very good point in his email to me. If we trace the path of Abraha's expedition according to the inscription, he completely avoided the path to Mecca, and probably never even bothered to visit the city/settlement/village, whatever it may have been called before it was called Mecca... That would be a really scary thought for a traditionalist!
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Layth, very interesting indeed! I am reading info you gave the links to... seems like these are remains of the 'missing link' between a Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens. Also, the use of flint is an indicator that it was used for either a spear or a knife. If used as a spear, then it may not be a true homo sapien, since modern man made his appearance with the antler tipped spear, and was a much more effective hunter than his predecessors. Perhaps there is more to be discovered by this team.
Definitely, the Middle East must have been a lush green forest with rivers and streams during and prior the ice age.
Very exciting!
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maxq wrote
Hi thegod,hi maxq! -)
you can check out "History of Warfare" by John Keegan...
yups bro...i did find the reference...but i appreciate ur pointing it out to me! -)
Elephants were considered a symbol of power and might, and hence you can see epigraphy of battles with a special focus on elephants used in war. There is no such indication in Abraha's inscription, and this alone is a major indicator that he did/could not use elephants even if he wanted to. Simply put, here's a guy who is boasting about his expedition Why would he have not mentioned elephants if he used them?
to be honest...i am least interested in abraha at the moment...he can wait! -)
...what i am interested in, are the conclusions, which i believe were atleast somewhat influenced by the list! -)
to believe that no incident, as described by arab historians/traditions, took place, v would need conclusive evidence that indeed did no such incident take place! else it is simply a matter of preferring one history over another! -)
....if v take the list, drawn from keegan's book as that evidence, or part of evidence, v would need to assume that he was able to get the entire "notable" history of the last 2300+ years...and get it right...which, i think u may agree, is a tall order! -)
at the very best, v can only assume that his list is accurate and exhaustive...and assumptions are, atleast for me, never the best approach, unless for the sake of hypothesis! -)
....so what v have here, is a situation where v work on an assumption that his list of "notable battles" is worthy of being admitted as influential material! -)
as for keegan, in atleast some part of his research, he is seen by some (other historians) as biased, unreliable and inaccurate! the referenced book itself is not popular for reasons which u might want to look up! -)
...also, his views on the "westerners" and "orientals" might be of interest! -S
to sum it up, v have little or no reason to believe the list is reliable as a reference! -)
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Dr. Ayman raised a very good point in his email to me. If we trace the path of Abraha's expedition according to the inscription, he completely avoided the path to Mecca, and probably never even bothered to visit the city/settlement/village, whatever it may have been called before it was called Mecca... That would be a really scary thought for a traditionalist!
Indeed it would, I hope you get some comments in your blog by some extremely irate traditionalists that you can then share with us
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Oh, what I am trying to say is that a possible route is through the sea whereby Elephants can be transported in ships more easily than having dragged their behinds through the desert lol ) I am just considering the alternatives a military leader would be ready to undertake for an expedition.
Mecca is about 80km away from the Red Sea so logically, one could have considered transporting elephants in ships from the Yameni coast to the coast nearest Mecca. Practicality is another issue.
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maxq wrote
Oh, what I am trying to say is that a possible route is through the sea whereby Elephants can be transported in ships more easily than having dragged their behinds through the desert lol I am just considering the alternatives a military leader would be ready to undertake for an expedition.oh ok...trying to think like a military leader...cool! -)
Mecca is about 80km away from the Red Sea so logically, one could have considered transporting elephants in ships from the Yameni coast to the coast nearest Mecca. Practicality is another issue.
no idea! -)
