Jesus, Miracles, Virginbirth and the Nazarenes
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I don't know what youa re thinking, but till now you haven't brought in any real evidence. Only a personal intepretation on what Mary's reaction means, which is completely subjective and contradicting with other verses of the Quran.
Not a personal interpretation, but the only logical understanding of Mary's reaction.
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Peace Fahad
I fear that you are going about an interpretation the wrong way. If you put things together the picture will be more clear and I think you will perhaps see that a virgin birth miracle is not mentioned at all. Yes 3/59 may be the crux of your argument that Jesus is different, but it also does not mention that he was created from seeds which would mean that he was not born of a mother either. That is not the case in my opinion because it is shown that we are created from seeds .
Jesus was definitely born of a mother. He is not called "son of Marium" for nothing.
On the other hand, Adam is not called son of any woman, so he was not born of a mother either. Neither of a father, because the verse doesn't mention the sperm.
So they were created from dust and the "be" command only. Not the sperm.
You are saying that because 3/59 does not mention what is scattered elsewhere in the quran, it should not apply to Jesus. I say no, it is wrong to do it that way because the piture is drawn best from adding all its components up.
It should not apply to Jesus and Adam because of the reasons I have given above, not because it is scattered elsewhere in the quran. It means that the picture is already complete without adding these "sperm" components.
I do not think that is saying that Mary was NEVER touched by any man whatsoever (that is sexually), especially since she had child.
I have explained a number of times already. You write
It seems to imply that at this point Mary was still a virgin so she inquired about this nonesense of her having a child...
You left her inquiry incomplete. She inquired about "this nonesense of her having a child" without a man touching her.
God percieves into veils which our eyes cannot pierce and revealed a portion of the unseen to her. "It will be so" says God to her, pointing out that even though she is virgin now, she will soon have a son with a man who will fulfill this vision.
The malaika's reply to Marium's inquiry was "it is easy for God". What is easy for God? The "nonsense of her having a child" without a man touching her . Period.
If he had meant that a man will soon touch her (sexually), he would have said so unambiguously.
And I don't anymore hear anyone say "God doesn't run out of words" about this. It shows that some participants here are biased.
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1927 Then she came to her people carrying him. They said "O Mary, you have come with something totally unexpected!"
1928 "O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!"
The above helps clarify the matter; her people implied the same "who's the father" accusation.
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Peace,
This only says 2 things
1.They didn't knew she was having a child now.
- She did something against custom. Bagiyaa in 1928 means 'to go beyond the bounds of normal conduct'.
We know she grew up in a Temple. Almost all temples on earth require celibacy, which explains Mary startlement at being chosen to carry a child. But she was from the family of Aaron. The Hebrews tried to keep this bloodlines alive as we know from the Dead Sea scrolls. Her family gave her to the Temple, and so didn't expect to come back, and especially not with a child. We now through the Quran, that Jesus was born in September, because of the ripe dates. September is a non-holy month for the Jews, and so explains why Mary 'broke the bounds of normal conduct'. Royal offspring may only be born into Holy Months. This can still be seen today with certain Jewish sects.
The verses don't imply at all to a virgin birth. This is filling in the blanks with a Christian mind. The cross reference doesn't allow this belief. Allah doesn't change His Kalimat, His Design of Creation.
5345 And He is the One who created the pair, male and female.
5346 From a seed that is put forth.That which is translated as seed, literally means 'ejaculated drop'. Only the seed of a male is ejaculated, not the egg of a woman. So there is no exception made.
Jesus is as adam
359 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.Adam means all mankind
711 And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Malikah "Submit to Adam=humankind;" so they submitted except for Satan, he was not of those who submitted.Allah doesn't change His creation, again NO exceptions
1827 And recite what has been inspired to you from your Lord's Scripture, there is no changing His kalimat, His Commands, Decree's, Plan, Design and Creation. And you will not find besides Him any refuge. -
Peace Bro Arnold
But she was from the family of Aaron. The Hebrews tried to keep this bloodlines alive as we know from the Dead Sea scrolls. Her family gave her to the Temple, and so didn't expect to come back, and especially not with a child. We now through the Quran, that Jesus was born in September, because of the ripe dates. September is a non-holy month for the Jews, and so explains why Mary 'broke the bounds of normal conduct'. Royal offspring may only be born into Holy Months. This can still be seen today with certain Jewish sects.
We do not interpret the quran in reference to man-made forms of history i.e. dead sea scrolls or hadith. We interpret the quran simply upon it's own merits because God will explain His Verses.
"Royal offspring" to be born of a certain month is a man-made silly rule. The God does not have to conform to it. Furthermore, this is a mix up of quranic verses with jewish interpretation. Was it a malaika that came to Mary or a person coming to make her continue the bloodline? did she run away to the desert because she was afraid she was having a baby when NO MAN HAS TOUCHED HER, or was she afraid of having a baby at a certain "unholy" month deemed by the writers of the dead scrolls? Did they accuse her of being unchaste, or messing up the "procreation calendar for royal bloodlines"?
Furthermore, what was the purpose of including this in the quran, if it only conforms to unauthorized customs of Hebrew Royalty? What purpose does it serve me today?
Your analysis is similar to relying on Bukhari et al in order to understand the quran.
I don't mean disrespect, this is my opinion.
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Peace,
Dear Boost, you are confusing 2 things here completely. You didn't get the point at all. Allah ignored the man-made Temple rules and just decided for Mary without any keeping to man-made rules, this was seen as a crime and rebellion by the Temple rulers, and so she had to flee the temple, this is why her family says she committed bagiyaa. You have 2 factors here
- What was the custom of the Temple.
The custom of the Temple was mostly celibacy and that they decide when you have children. To deviate from the Temple rules was a grave offense.
- What God decided for Mary.
Which was to have children and without caring about any man-made 'holy' months or celibacy. Because Mary obeyed Allah, she went against the custom. Being from the family of Aaron, the family was surprised she went beyond the bounds of custom, which in their belief was always obeyed. Allah says that He never had promoted celibacy, but the family of Mary made her grow up as a nun, this clearly shows that they believed this was a law of Allah and that Aaron also believed this. So they say 'bagiyaa', that her ancestors also believed in celibacy.
Bagiyaa means 'to go beyond the bounds of custom'. Unchaste is not the real meaning, but an interpretated one.
So it doesn't matter if I use Dead Sea scrolls or not. The matter stays the same. God made decisions for Mary which would create conflicts with the Temple customs, this is why she reacted on the malikah as such, why she had to flee the Temple and why her family reacted as such.
All the things mentioned all point to that Mary broke the Temple customs, not that she had a virgibirth. All the verses involved show that God made her go against the Priesthood rules.
And i'm never offended about an opinion, especially when you confused your point
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Peace Fahad,
These verses will complete the picture of how Allah created us 4067, 3511, 225, 1837 . Not so for Jesus and Adam.
Again, this is your addition. To accept it, we must ignore the ayat I posted which clearly state there is no change/exception in God's Law/Way.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
Just goes to show there are no shortcuts
I need to read the thread fully first ;D
Sorry about the mix up
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Peace Fahad,
These verses will complete the picture of how Allah created us 4067, 3511, 225, 1837 . Not so for Jesus and Adam.
Again, this is your addition.
No. YOU are suggesting that Adam and Jesus were created by sperm. Not me, and neither is the verse. So YOU are adding.
To accept it, we must ignore the ayat I posted which clearly state there is no change/exception in God's Law/Way.
What is Allah's sunnat, Tay?
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Peace Fahad,
Allah has made it pretty simple, yet we strive to complicate things.
All men/women are created via sperm and egg.
Isa and Adam were men.
Allah's way does not change.Can it be any more clear?
Does Allah have to tell us who else was created from sperm and egg?I leave you in peace,
Tay -
Peace Fahad,
Allah has made it pretty simple, yet we strive to complicate things.
All men/women are created via sperm and egg.
Isa and Adam were men.
Allah's way does not change.Can it be any more clear?
Does Allah have to tell us who else was created from sperm and egg?I leave you in peace,
TayCan you please give your understanding of 'Allah's sunnat'(if you can back it by any verse at all) before you leave? I have asked the same question to Arnold and Phoenix1. No response yet.
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peace,
Allah's sunnat, or God's way, is universal law. For example, all men are created from sperm and egg. The gravitational constant is always constant. E always equals mc^2. Light always reflects off a mirror.
The reason the quran says that god's way never changes is precisely so that we don't start believing in supernatural miracles. Because they are AGAINST God's way/laws.
If Tay and Arnold are right that Jesus is classified as a man, then I agree that there is no such thing as "virgin birth" in the quran.
I'll quote Tay
"Allah has made it pretty simple...
All men/women are created via sperm and egg.
Isa and Adam were men.
Allah's way does not change." -
Peace Fahad,
Arnold answered you on page 2. I provided the ayat which spell it out - God's way/laws. Now that I've taken your bait, you can go ahead and explain to us that God's way as mentioned in the qur'an is applicable only in the context in which it's expressed in each particular ayah.
Fact is, Fahad, we stand on different sides of this topic and to further pursue it would be fruitless. I cannot subscribe to the idea that God's laws constantly change throughout time just to build a case for some previous supernatural occurrences. The further and deeper implications of this "belief" are far more paramount than whether or not Isa had a father. For, if I accept your understanding (which, by the way predates islam, christianity, and isa himself), then I must also accept a wavering, dabbling Creator that intervenes to provide an unverifiable, cloudy example but does not intervene to alleviate suffering.
It all ties together.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Fahad,
Arnold answered you on page 2. I provided the ayat which spell it out - God's way/laws. Now that I've taken your bait, you can go ahead and explain to us that God's way as mentioned in the qur'an is applicable only in the context in which it's expressed in each particular ayah.
You did not provide the ayat which spells it out. You left out those ayaat on purpose. Here, this is what you had provided
1777 This is the way of those whom We sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.
but you left out 17/76 which spells out sunnat of Allah "And they nearly frightened you to drive you out of the land. But in that case, they would have shortly been destroyed after you were gone." (Free-Minds translation)
Then you provided verse ...
3362 This is God's way with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in God's way.
but you left out 33/60-61 which spells out the sunnat of Allah "If the hypocrites, and those with disease in their hearts and those who spread lies in the city do not refrain, then We will let you overpower them, then they will not be able to remain as your neighbours except for a short while."
Then you provided...
3543 ...You will not find any change in God's way, and you will not find any bypass to His way.
but left out the first part of the verse which spells out the sunnat of Allah
35/43 "Arrogance on earth, and evil scheming. And the evil schemes only backfire on those who scheme them. Were they expecting anything different from the ways used on the people of the past?"....
That is what Allah calls His sunnat, the parts which you left out.
Who do you think you are deceiving?!
Fact is, Fahad, we stand on different sides of this topic and to further pursue it would be fruitless. I cannot subscribe to the idea that God's laws constantly change throughout time just to build a case for some previous supernatural occurrences.
You guys are not paying attention to what Allah calls His sunnat, but you are making up your own definitions of Allah's sunnat in order to rationalize Al-Quran.
The further and deeper implications of this "belief" are far more paramount than whether or not Isa had a father. For, if I accept your understanding (which, by the way predates islam, christianity, and isa himself), then I must also accept a wavering, dabbling Creator that intervenes to provide an unverifiable, cloudy example but does not intervene to alleviate suffering.
Unverifiable example?! If God is giving you an example, that is the ultimate verification! Unless of course, if you doubt the book wherein there is no doubt that it is from the Lord of the worlds.
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The same according to Parwez?
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_019.htm
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(O Rasool!) Now relate from this Book (Quran) the story of Mary, (starting from the time) when after abandoning her clerical life she moved towards the east (to her village.)
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(The clerical life and the unpleasant events occuring there had such an adverse effect on her mind that) There also she lived in seclusion, apart from others. In order to obliterate these effects, We introduced positive thoughts in her mind and pleasant aspects of life appeared to her (in her dream) as a person.
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(Mary was frightened at this sight and exclaimed) "I seek the protection of Ar-Rahman from you (if you have any regard and respect for His Laws).?
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He answered, "(There is no cause to become alarmed because) I have only brought a message from your Rabb (344). He is going to bestow on you a well developed son.?
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She said, "How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me.? (When I was in the temple, I lived a virtuous life; and since I came out, I have not got married as this is against the clerical laws ~ 346; 1928.)
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He said, "Whatever I have told you, will happen according to Allah's law of creation (346). This is easy for Him (to remove all the hindrances which are in your mind and which perturb you ~ 199). Allah has also said that this child will not be like other children. He will be from our side an embodiment of Rahmat for the people; and a testimonial for truth and falsehood. (Whoever brings Eiman on his Nabuwat will be on the right path, while the one who rejects it will be wrong.) And this is already decreed by Us (that the child will be Our Messenger ~ 347).
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(And gradually all impediments were removed and the fear of clerical taboos vanished from Mary's mind. At the same time, in spite of warnings and intimidation from the priests, one person agreed to marry Mary.) In time Mary conceived the child and consequently they (both of them) considered it appropriate to move to a far off place (so that the child would be born at a place where no one knew them; and where they would be safe from the wrath and accusations of the priests).
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_003.htm
358-59 Moving from the Jews to the Christians, take up their claim that Jesus was the son of Allah. Tell them ?The birth of Jesus is like the birth of any other human being. Life emerged from inanimate objects and passing through evolutionary stages culminated in human form. This is the truth from Allah and there is no room for doubt or dispute in this matter.?
Above interprets Quran to conform to unproven evolution theory which contradicts Quran that animals, jinns, things seen/unseen, and humans are a distinct creation including identical twins who have unique fingerprints.
1770 And We have honoured the Children of Adam and carried them in the land and the sea, and We have provided for them of the good things, and We have preferred them over many of those We created in a marked preference.
Specific example was given for a reason else any human would suffice for comparison.
359 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.
347 She said "My Lord, how can I have a son when no human has touched me?" He said "It is thus that God creates what He wills, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it "Be," and it is."
The ?Be? part is the analogy.
Peace
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Peace Fahad,
If God is giving you an example, that is the ultimate verification!
And of course, it boils down to..."because God said so". Never mind the inconsistency and contradiction and myth that predates the very person we're discussing. As I said, we stand on diametrically opposite sides of this issue.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
peace Fahad,
What it all boils down to is whether you have blind faith in the quran or not.
Now I don't care what the right answer is, as long as I can verify it.
You don't care for verification. To you, whatever the quran says is enough, because the quran says it is from god.
I think you have believe the quran blindly and that belief is holding you back in finding the true understanding of the verses.and you never really answered my question, what if I write a book which says "this book is the truth, it is from god, it is perfect, it is the criterion, and you should burn every copy of the quran. And you have to care about this book or you will die." Will you follow that book? why or why not?
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peace Fahad,
What it all boils down to is whether you have blind faith in the quran or not.It boils down to whether I believe in the unseen or not. I do.
Now I don't care what the right answer is, as long as I can verify it.
I have given you all the verification from Al-Quran. I did not add to it like others it. And you might agree that , at least 'Quranically' , the virginbirth story makes sense, even if it is symbolic.
You don't care for verification. To you, whatever the quran says is enough, because the quran says it is from god.
If you have doubts about Quran's divinity, why don't you deal with them first in the "Quran's Divinity" section? Instead of raising the topic in every other thread, like I have pointed out to you before too.
I think you have believe the quran blindly and that belief is holding you back in finding the true understanding of the verses.
I am not arguing whether the virginbirth is a symbolic story or real. You said you consider it symbolic, and I didn't argue about that. What I am saying is that according to Al-Quran, Jesus was born of a virgin mother. If it sounds fictional to you, so be it. I will not try to rationalize the stories like some here are doing, because that will be dishonesty on my part. I present the story just as Al-Quran presents it. That is the true understanding. That is what Al-Quran is saying. If it sounds fictional to people, they can reject Al-Quran, because by rationalizing it, they are not believing in it anyway.
and you never really answered my question, what if I write a book which says "this book is the truth, it is from god, it is perfect, it is the criterion, and you should burn every copy of the quran. And you have to care about this book or you will die." Will you follow that book? why or why not?
Like I said before, who cares about your book?!