Beating Women
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peace AB,
how does beating someone solve anything?
and what kind of crime should men beat their wives for? beating someone's wife would pretty much ruin the relationship. Ask any of the female members here.
And are wives allowed to beat their husbands?
and if the wife gets beaten, wouldn't she just get divorce to get away from you?
I don't get what that would solve.
Seperating from eachother (temporarily or not) makes much more sense. -
peace AB,
Salam Walid
look, I debated this on my web site intensivly and I'm not willing to debate the issue further on FM, i may copy the other debate here so others can benefit from it
now I will try to answer your question briefly with no elaboration at this time, first of all my job is not to preach, i only explain the Arabic words using my expertise with the language, however I also apply the common sense on top that to see if the Arabic meaning as I see it as literal as possible makes sense or not within the context, now I'm in no positi0on to argue the laws of Allah and question it, for me that is what He ordered and that is what should be done, as simple as that, now you are taking the beating alone out of the whole verse context to try and prove its crystal clear meaning wrong because it does not suit your man made feel good religion, I don't do that mate, for me, religion is never feel good unless you obey what Allah says not what my low desires wish, so please get it this time
how does beating someone solve anything?
the verse didn't say to beat SOMEONE nor the verse said to beat any wife, the verse was very specific in beating the ill conduct wife who insisted on doing the wrong after her husband exhausted the first two options to decipline an ill conduct wife
and what kind of crime should men beat their wives for?
well, there are many and if I will lcopy my debate in here then you will read it
beating someone's wife would pretty much ruin the relationship.
well, the relation is ruined anyway before the beating because the ill conduct wife is insisting on doing the wrong after the husband exhausted the olther two options, at least there will be a chance now that this sick and ill conduct wife wake up and fix her flaws that will only result to her doom on the JD
Ask any of the female members here.
you can ask them, I won't, I can only ask my wife that is if she is an ill conduct one (God forbids) and in 15 years marraige I never beaten her because she never conducts things in an ill manner
And are wives allowed to beat their husbands?
well, the Quran didn't prevent it , so I guess it is allowed if there is merit behind it, however the wife will run a major risk in here, see if we reverse the verse to simulate a case where the husband is the ill conduct one and the wife is trying hard to fix his flaws but he insists on doing the wrong then beating an ill conduct husband will put the wife in great danger because the ill conduct husband may hit back and hurt her, the man is not like a woman physically as you know
and if the wife gets beaten, wouldn't she just get divorce to get away from you?
well in that case no, however if the wife is insisting on doing the wrong after the three steps finished then this wife is so ill that only deserve to be in the streets not in my home with my children
I don't get what that would solve.
it is not what i solved
it is what Allah ordered
Seperating from eachother (temporarily or not) makes much more sense.
to your man made feel good religion, yes, but it makes no sense to the true meaning of this crystral clear verse said by Allah
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PEace All
I'm so lost ... does that mean according to you, bro Arnold, that it is not to beat? How do we know this since everyone else says it means to hit? i know in modern standard arabic it means to hit but this may mean nothing.
Bro AB, what are the punishments? I know you probably don't want to discuss it again but this means alot to me i have to know. if you can even just paste the debate it would be helpful.
i agree with you bro Phoenix that it does not help. i know if i was hit by my husband i would feel very hurt inside... but i need to know what the quran says about this.
Now there are 2 translations and i'd like to feel comfortable in knowing it is bro Arnold's but i don't want to be blind either.
I'm sorry to both of you i know this has probably been debated a million times and seems trivial to you all at this point. but it is really bothering me and my faith is shaken and i don't like that feeling at all. plz help me.
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Bro AB, what are the punishments? I know you probably don't want to discuss it again but this means alot to me i have to know. if you can even just paste the debate it would be helpful.
Hello
I will inshaallah as I will need to edit the tags due to the difference in platform, it is not plain cut and paste
i agree with you bro Phoenix that it does not help. i know if i was hit by my husband i would feel very hurt inside... but i need to know what the quran says about this.
I'm not really sure what you mean?, do you mean if you were hit by your husband after insisting on the ill conduct?
if you will feel bad by being beaten for your ill conduct, how about your husband feelings who tried to fis you first with a polite advice "Eizohuna" then you insisted, then he abandon you in bed then you insisted
it seems that you won't care about your husband feeling while insisting on ill conduct, the ill conduct wife can avoid the beating by simply seeking divorce while the husband still exriencing the first two options before he start tpo beat her
salam
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Peace Bro AB
what is the ill conduct?
This means a world of difference to me because if it is just anything he doesn't like, then maybe i'm not bad and he is violent. what is the criteria? maybe this will make it easier for me to get to understand.. i don't know
i'll wait for the work you have to do to post it here. Thank you
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Peace Boost,
I think that first the husband should be an upright example of adhering to quranic principle. I do not think many men really take up the responsibilities they are expected to keep to. I do not think it is an easy thing myself, but I'm not all that good myself. Like Dante I'm seeking purification/zakat, and sometimes I find myself in a dark wood. The straight path is not so easy to step back on for the lion, the she-wolf, and the leopard are terrible foes to all.
Joe
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Peace Bro AB
what is the ill conduct?
This means a world of difference to me because if it is just anything he doesn't like, then maybe i'm not bad and he is violent. what is the criteria? maybe this will make it easier for me to get to understand.. i don't know
i'll wait for the work you have to do to post it here. Thank you
Hello mate
it is going to be a lot of work to copy and paste it in here, especially a few were involved, therefore I have no other option but to post you a url and you can take it from there
Debate 1
Debate 2
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PEace
Brother Ahmed you made me a better wife before i even get married handshake
I've always taken the free-minds article just blindly to be true without much research simply because i didn't understand how the God can command a man to hit a woman. i think it would please western ears to hear there is no physical force on a woman, but the way you explained it shows there is hikma in it. this is a woman who is doing drugs or stealing or abusing her children. this is a woman who does not want to change regardless of what you say or do. i will never be that kind of person God-Willing... so i guess i have nothing to worry about. i will be honest. i still have some residual heartburn from this whole idea but i'm working to understand it...
You made a really good point in one of the debates. The reality is that men do hit women and very very violently. At least if there will be any hitting, i'd want to know that there are some rules that govern my muslim husband. he can't just hit me for nothing. or hit me without even talking to me about what i'm doing wrong. and like Bro Nabi pointed out too, the man has to be following the quran all the way through and not just one verse. This would make him a wise man as you repeated to those people.
Anyway, i feel so much better now that i'm beginning to understand and submit to the God's Will in that verse.
God Bless you really
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Boost, you are a guy, aren't you?
If a woman is sooo out of wack, what would beating her accomplish? nothing. I'd rather get rid of her or turn her in. I'm not a big fan of physical force, against children or wives.
Maybe there wouldn't be anything wrong with beating a woman who has no sense of morality whatsoever, but it isn't the best way to deal with the situation, IMHO. -
Peace Bro PHoenix
Boost, you are a guy, aren't you?
umm.. -\
If a woman is sooo out of wack, what would beating her accomplish? nothing. I'd rather get rid of her or turn her in. I'm not a big fan of physical force, against children or wives.
Maybe there wouldn't be anything wrong with beating a woman who has no sense of morality whatsoever, but it isn't the best way to deal with the situation, IMHO.there is nothing in the verse that says you MUST beat her. Divorce is always an option if you just don't wanna even bother. but there are other people who really can't let go of a messed up child-abusing woman, let's say, but can't accept that behavior either. So that's just a last chance. Perhaps it would be the drastic event that would shock her into changing. Perhaps not but the option is there for those who still want to be together for the children or other reasons.
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Peace Bro PHoenix
umm.. -\
there is nothing in the verse that says you MUST beat her. Divorce is always an option if you just don't wanna even bother. but there are other people who really can't let go of a messed up child-abusing woman, let's say, but can't accept that behavior either. So that's just a last chance. Perhaps it would be the drastic event that would shock her into changing. Perhaps not but the option is there for those who still want to be together for the children or other reasons.
That is right sister
we are talking about a husband who loves his ill conduct wife and want the good for her, he started talking to her politely and she ignored him and continued to do the wrong, he abondoned her in bed and yet she is so ill that still insisting on the wrong
I myself will divorce her at that moment and look for a better wife, but if I really love her that much then I have no problem of beating her with wisdom to decipline her and help her to come out of the darkness by force and if that failed then she must see the highway
it is all about caring for her really
If a husband don't care nor love his wife then the moment she commits ill conduct he will divorce her on the spot and now we have victims (the children) who will suffer for the rest of their life
My parents were divorced btw when i was 11, and now at the age of 42 I still suffer from it mentally, it taught me a hard lesson indeed that i will never do this to my children
Salam
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PEace
Brother Ahmed you made me a better wife before i even get married handshake
LOL sister, I missed that
You sounded like a great wife from all your comments anyway, would you marry a married man?, I have to talk my wife through it though
Just kiddin dear sister D
salam
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D
lol khateeby ye2telna kollena how's that for a beating hehehehe
salam my brother
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D
lol khateeby ye2telna kollena how's that for a beating hehehehe
salam my brother
LOL sisteTake care
so you are engaged, my bad
R
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this is a woman who does not want to change regardless of what you say or do.
and hitting her will surely solve the problem. Sister what the hell, i thought you were smarter than that. There is NO LOVE in hitting people. The good old "this hurt me as much as it hurt you", is the words of a sadist and abuser. You hit in self defence, and thats it. If you are not physically threatened or have your freedom taken away from you, you are in no position to apply violence EVER. And if your wife is behaving badly and is out of reach, thats is the reality of things. Remember that it all rely on your personal interpretation of that persons behaviour. He/she may disagree with you, so you are now doing what any facist government/power is doing. You are showing your views down someone elses throat and will resort to violence to get that message through.
Funny how some people (Ahmed) has a problem with differing between his own ape views and the words of God.
My parents were divorced btw when i was 11, and now at the age of 42 I still suffer from it mentally
yes its obvious to all of us.
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Peace,
I have to add my comments here that the notion that women are to be
beatenaccording to a Sunni/Shia common understanding of verse of 424 is totally unfounded.The word
Darabdoes not meanbeatin its natural state, it meansto put forth.Therefore, when God
Daraban example it means He isputting it forth...When the AngelsDaraba person, it means they are putting forth their hands against him (which is where the undertsanding ofbeat/strikecomes from).All verses in the Quran are to be studied in relevance to the subject and not simply in promotion of existing misunderstandings or behaviours.
424 deals with marital problems...If people believe that a good
smackwill make their wife start listening to them and bring harmony to the marriage, then my only comment is that either these people have never been married, or, such people are violent and abusive by nature. -
Peace All
Brothers Arnold and Layth, you state that daraba must mean to separate but why? Please don't tell me because its illogical to hit a woman. Maybe my logic is faulty due to what society has told me is right and wrong. So I need quranic proof because the quran is the criterion, not what society dictates. I kind of agree with you that if my husband hit me i'd feel so hurt, but then again i wouldn't do something so horrible as what defines nishooz either. If you all could clearly explain your position on why it cannot possibly be to hit and has to be to separate, it would be very beneficial to all who seek knowledge, including myself.
I know classical arabic is different than modern standard, but daraba when used in reference to a person is to hit... i must admit the original argument posed that it is daraba + 3anhunna that could mean "to separate from" really does need to be refuted if we are to believe, grammatically speaking, that this verse means to separate from them.
I think it all boils down to grammar. How do you say "I want to separate from him."?
Also, if we only hit during self defense then why do we flog the adulterers? This is also a form of physical punishment.
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I know classical arabic is different than modern standard, but daraba when used in reference to a person is to hit... i must admit the original argument posed that it is daraba + 3anhunna that could mean "to separate from" really does need to be refuted if we are to believe, grammatically speaking, that this verse means to separate from them.
Peace sister
I'm actually on holiday for a week in one great city on the Australian ocean, i thought I will never be able to use the net during this period but decided to have a drive with my car around the area and managed to hack into some not very secure wireless connections, LOL, they can only blame themselves, anyway I would like to add a comment to you, what you said above is 100% right and also applies to any object, like the sea (moses stirkes the sea with his staff), the ground (Moses strikes the ground with his staff), in addition to a human as you clearly explained above, indeed in sura 2 Allah ordred Moses to strike the dead man with parts of the cow (Idrabuhu),exactly as Idrabuhunna) see the Hu and te Hunna, are Damirs referring to humans (dead or alive)
I think it all boils down to grammar. How do you say "I want to separate from him."?
There are many verses in the Quran that talk about circumstantial separation between the husband and the wife, due to time restriction and me sitting on the street, i will only provide one verse which talks about the separation between the husband and wife during the menstruation period
And they ask you about menstruation. Say It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.
(222)
-> See the Arabic words " ", "keep aloof from ", and " ", "do not go near them ", very clear dear sister, unlike those who are suggesting that Adrabuhunna means to seprate from them (total non sense if you ask me sister)
On the other hand, for Idrab to mean "to travel" we need the word "FI" after it somewhere in the sentence to make it means as such, you know many examples in the Quran regarding travel in the land (Idrab FI Al Ard), here is an example that means travel in the sea
And certainly We revealed to Musa, saying Travel by night with My servants, then make for them a dry path in the sea, not fearing to be overtaken, nor being afraid.
(77)
-> See dear sister " ", "make for them a dry path IN the sea"
I.e. we need the word "FI" along with the word Idrab to mean to travel in the land or the sea
The word Idrab on its own or having a Mafool Bihi as a person (Dead or Alive) "i.e. The verb is done to that person" must mean to STRIKE, it can never mean to separate, this is 100% wrong dear sister
Also, if we only hit during self defense then why do we flog the adulterers? This is also a form of physical punishment.
exactly sister, does not sound like the feel good religion to me
Got to go mate, my wife should be spueing by now (where the hell I'm)
Take care
