Beating Women

unknownuser

PEace

Brother Ahmed you made me a better wife before i even get married handshake

I've always taken the free-minds article just blindly to be true without much research simply because i didn't understand how the God can command a man to hit a woman. i think it would please western ears to hear there is no physical force on a woman, but the way you explained it shows there is hikma in it. this is a woman who is doing drugs or stealing or abusing her children. this is a woman who does not want to change regardless of what you say or do. i will never be that kind of person God-Willing... so i guess i have nothing to worry about. i will be honest. i still have some residual heartburn from this whole idea but i'm working to understand it...

You made a really good point in one of the debates. The reality is that men do hit women and very very violently. At least if there will be any hitting, i'd want to know that there are some rules that govern my muslim husband. he can't just hit me for nothing. or hit me without even talking to me about what i'm doing wrong. and like Bro Nabi pointed out too, the man has to be following the quran all the way through and not just one verse. This would make him a wise man as you repeated to those people.

Anyway, i feel so much better now that i'm beginning to understand and submit to the God's Will in that verse.

God Bless you really

phoenix1

Boost, you are a guy, aren't you?
If a woman is sooo out of wack, what would beating her accomplish? nothing. I'd rather get rid of her or turn her in. I'm not a big fan of physical force, against children or wives.
Maybe there wouldn't be anything wrong with beating a woman who has no sense of morality whatsoever, but it isn't the best way to deal with the situation, IMHO.

unknownuser

Peace Bro PHoenix

Boost, you are a guy, aren't you?

umm.. -\

If a woman is sooo out of wack, what would beating her accomplish? nothing. I'd rather get rid of her or turn her in. I'm not a big fan of physical force, against children or wives.
Maybe there wouldn't be anything wrong with beating a woman who has no sense of morality whatsoever, but it isn't the best way to deal with the situation, IMHO.

there is nothing in the verse that says you MUST beat her. Divorce is always an option if you just don't wanna even bother. but there are other people who really can't let go of a messed up child-abusing woman, let's say, but can't accept that behavior either. So that's just a last chance. Perhaps it would be the drastic event that would shock her into changing. Perhaps not but the option is there for those who still want to be together for the children or other reasons.

unknownuser

Peace Bro PHoenix

umm.. -\

there is nothing in the verse that says you MUST beat her. Divorce is always an option if you just don't wanna even bother. but there are other people who really can't let go of a messed up child-abusing woman, let's say, but can't accept that behavior either. So that's just a last chance. Perhaps it would be the drastic event that would shock her into changing. Perhaps not but the option is there for those who still want to be together for the children or other reasons.

That is right sister

we are talking about a husband who loves his ill conduct wife and want the good for her, he started talking to her politely and she ignored him and continued to do the wrong, he abondoned her in bed and yet she is so ill that still insisting on the wrong

I myself will divorce her at that moment and look for a better wife, but if I really love her that much then I have no problem of beating her with wisdom to decipline her and help her to come out of the darkness by force and if that failed then she must see the highway

it is all about caring for her really

If a husband don't care nor love his wife then the moment she commits ill conduct he will divorce her on the spot and now we have victims (the children) who will suffer for the rest of their life

My parents were divorced btw when i was 11, and now at the age of 42 I still suffer from it mentally, it taught me a hard lesson indeed that i will never do this to my children

Salam

unknownuser

PEace

Brother Ahmed you made me a better wife before i even get married handshake

LOL sister, I missed that

You sounded like a great wife from all your comments anyway, would you marry a married man?, I have to talk my wife through it though

Just kiddin dear sister D

salam

unknownuser

D

lol khateeby ye2telna kollena how's that for a beating hehehehe

salam my brother

unknownuser

D

lol khateeby ye2telna kollena how's that for a beating hehehehe

salam my brother

LOL sisteTake care

so you are engaged, my bad

R

unknownuser

this is a woman who does not want to change regardless of what you say or do.

and hitting her will surely solve the problem. Sister what the hell, i thought you were smarter than that. There is NO LOVE in hitting people. The good old "this hurt me as much as it hurt you", is the words of a sadist and abuser. You hit in self defence, and thats it. If you are not physically threatened or have your freedom taken away from you, you are in no position to apply violence EVER. And if your wife is behaving badly and is out of reach, thats is the reality of things. Remember that it all rely on your personal interpretation of that persons behaviour. He/she may disagree with you, so you are now doing what any facist government/power is doing. You are showing your views down someone elses throat and will resort to violence to get that message through.

Funny how some people (Ahmed) has a problem with differing between his own ape views and the words of God.

My parents were divorced btw when i was 11, and now at the age of 42 I still suffer from it mentally

yes its obvious to all of us.

Layth

Peace,

I have to add my comments here that the notion that women are to be beaten according to a Sunni/Shia common understanding of verse of 424 is totally unfounded.

The word Darab does not mean beat in its natural state, it means to put forth.

Therefore, when God Darab an example it means He is putting it forth...When the Angels Darab a person, it means they are putting forth their hands against him (which is where the undertsanding of beat/strike comes from).

All verses in the Quran are to be studied in relevance to the subject and not simply in promotion of existing misunderstandings or behaviours.

424 deals with marital problems...If people believe that a good smack will make their wife start listening to them and bring harmony to the marriage, then my only comment is that either these people have never been married, or, such people are violent and abusive by nature.

phoenix1

yes its obvious to all of us.

lol

unknownuser

Peace All

Brothers Arnold and Layth, you state that daraba must mean to separate but why? Please don't tell me because its illogical to hit a woman. Maybe my logic is faulty due to what society has told me is right and wrong. So I need quranic proof because the quran is the criterion, not what society dictates. I kind of agree with you that if my husband hit me i'd feel so hurt, but then again i wouldn't do something so horrible as what defines nishooz either. If you all could clearly explain your position on why it cannot possibly be to hit and has to be to separate, it would be very beneficial to all who seek knowledge, including myself.

I know classical arabic is different than modern standard, but daraba when used in reference to a person is to hit... i must admit the original argument posed that it is daraba + 3anhunna that could mean "to separate from" really does need to be refuted if we are to believe, grammatically speaking, that this verse means to separate from them.

I think it all boils down to grammar. How do you say "I want to separate from him."?

Also, if we only hit during self defense then why do we flog the adulterers? This is also a form of physical punishment.

unknownuser

I know classical arabic is different than modern standard, but daraba when used in reference to a person is to hit... i must admit the original argument posed that it is daraba + 3anhunna that could mean "to separate from" really does need to be refuted if we are to believe, grammatically speaking, that this verse means to separate from them.

Peace sister

I'm actually on holiday for a week in one great city on the Australian ocean, i thought I will never be able to use the net during this period but decided to have a drive with my car around the area and managed to hack into some not very secure wireless connections, LOL, they can only blame themselves, anyway I would like to add a comment to you, what you said above is 100% right and also applies to any object, like the sea (moses stirkes the sea with his staff), the ground (Moses strikes the ground with his staff), in addition to a human as you clearly explained above, indeed in sura 2 Allah ordred Moses to strike the dead man with parts of the cow (Idrabuhu),exactly as Idrabuhunna) see the Hu and te Hunna, are Damirs referring to humans (dead or alive)

I think it all boils down to grammar. How do you say "I want to separate from him."?

There are many verses in the Quran that talk about circumstantial separation between the husband and the wife, due to time restriction and me sitting on the street, i will only provide one verse which talks about the separation between the husband and wife during the menstruation period

And they ask you about menstruation. Say It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.

(222)

-> See the Arabic words " ", "keep aloof from ", and " ", "do not go near them ", very clear dear sister, unlike those who are suggesting that Adrabuhunna means to seprate from them (total non sense if you ask me sister)

On the other hand, for Idrab to mean "to travel" we need the word "FI" after it somewhere in the sentence to make it means as such, you know many examples in the Quran regarding travel in the land (Idrab FI Al Ard), here is an example that means travel in the sea

And certainly We revealed to Musa, saying Travel by night with My servants, then make for them a dry path in the sea, not fearing to be overtaken, nor being afraid.

(77)

-> See dear sister " ", "make for them a dry path IN the sea"

I.e. we need the word "FI" along with the word Idrab to mean to travel in the land or the sea

The word Idrab on its own or having a Mafool Bihi as a person (Dead or Alive) "i.e. The verb is done to that person" must mean to STRIKE, it can never mean to separate, this is 100% wrong dear sister

Also, if we only hit during self defense then why do we flog the adulterers? This is also a form of physical punishment.

exactly sister, does not sound like the feel good religion to me

Got to go mate, my wife should be spueing by now (where the hell I'm)

Take care

Samia

Salaam all

First of all, "daraba" in classical arabic does not mean to beat (smack). This is a novel meaning. It means (strike to kill). In the quraan we have 474 (fa darbur riqaab) beating necks?! or killing?
If you say beat, then where? with waht? How many/often?The quraan used different words for darab (hash-sha/ wakaza with a stick, sakkat slapped..). If this is considered a punishment,; how wouldn't God give the details of which part of the body to beat, with what and/or how many (beats)?

Secondly where in the quraan do individulads apply / excute the punishment?

Third If an adultress would not be punished by her husband, how come some one "expected" to be naashiz would be beaten?

Third God mentions the two genders when a punishment is applied (assaariqu wassariga (thieves)...azzaaniya wazzaani (adultrers)) and showed that they have the same punishment. How com the male "naashiz" does not receive the same punisment?

Fourth How can a weak, old, crippled, or sick husband, or a husband married to a adughter/sister/ relative of a powerful man { a criminal (a mafia member) , a policeman/officer, his boss...} beat his wife (their daughter) without fearing the retribution of the family or her defending herself? Remember, God did not set a mecanism for the wife not to strike back. She is a naashiz, after all, and not from the category described just before this part of the verse (and the believing, reserved oness...). This will make the conclusion that weak and helpless husbands cannot make use of this "privilege" although they are the ones who need it; whereas powerful women will not get it, whereas they are the ones who may "deserve" it. Isn't this what is going on? Savage husbands beating helpless women?

Fifth How can God set this very unfair situation which is against all devine justice where the the husband is the "victim", the "two" witnesses, the prosecutor, the judge and the executor?

I think anyone who believes that (adribuuhunna) is a punishment and means beat them does not know God nor understands His system.

Layth

Salam Boost,

Brothers Arnold and Layth, you state that daraba must mean to separate but why? Please don't tell me because its illogical to hit a woman. Maybe my logic is faulty due to what society has told me is right and wrong. So I need quranic proof because the quran is the criterion, not what society dictates. I kind of agree with you that if my husband hit me i'd feel so hurt, but then again i wouldn't do something so horrible as what defines nishooz either. If you all could clearly explain your position on why it cannot possibly be to hit and has to be to separate, it would be very beneficial to all who seek knowledge, including myself.

When God tells us to do something, then it is not upto us to have a choice in the matter we hear & obey. Therefore, just to get this point out of the way, if God told us that a problematic wife was to be strung-up and shot, then I would be the first to support/promote such a law...

Now, back to the subject of nushooz. Nushooz means to rise / go above.

This can be seen clearly in 5811 where people are told to Nushooz from the place of gathering/sitting.

Therefore, the issue we are dealing with here is not adultry or some other act of immorality, but rather it is a subject of a women rebelling against her husband or a man rebelling against his wife (going above them, not acknowledging the other, not listening, deserting them, etc.).

Now, when the man is the one doing the Nushooz what does the Quran tell us to do with him

And if a woman fears from her husband desertion (nushooz), or ill-treatment, then there is no sin for them to reconcile between themselves; and reconciliation is good. And the souls are brought by need. And if you are kind and do right, then God is expert over what you do. (412

It tells us that they should reconcile...It does not say that the woman should smack the man in the head or bring her men-folk to do so in order to knock some sence into him...It says they should talk, and reconcile, since obviously this is an issue where the man cant stand the woman any longer and has thus rebelled` from her.

Now we move on to the example of when a woman is the one doing the nushooz

The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear a desertion (nushooz), then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and go forth from them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great. (434)

Now, if we look at the subject matter, it is of a woman who cannot stand her man and therefore has rebelled from him...As with the example of the man being the one rebelling, there are steps to calm things down and to bring harmony into the marriage...Knowking a woman in the face if she can`t stand her man and has rebelled against him will only make her hate him more and possibly commit a felony while he is asleep.

This is why any subject needs to be studied with a review of all relevant verses as well as the context...Otherwise we do what the Sunnis/Shia have done and manipulate God`s laws to justify the evils that come from ignorance or deliberate ignorance.

I know classical arabic is different than modern standard, but daraba when used in reference to a person is to hit... i must admit the original argument posed that it is daraba + 3anhunna that could mean "to separate from" really does need to be refuted if we are to believe, grammatically speaking, that this verse means to separate from them.

There is no such grammer law that states a word means one thing when applied to humans and another when applied to objects/items! Also, you need only look at 1811 to see that the above argument holds no water as God is Yadrib on the ears of the people of the cave while they slept (was God smacking/hitting them?).

I think it all boils down to grammar. How do you say "I want to separate from him."?

Darab = to put forth (that is the original meaning of the word). The only reason it can sometimes mean hit/strike is because you are putting forth your hand when you strike someone. In such cases you will see that the Quran specifies that which is being hit 812, 850, 4727. Wherewas the verse is 434 does not specify any part being hit (the face, arms, legs, body, etc.) and therefore would fall back to the natural state of the word which is to put forth.

unknownuser

Salam Sister BOOST

sounds like a ping pong game in here and I really don't want to be a cause for any confusion on your side therefore this will be my last comment to you regarding this subject

firstly if you use that meaning proposed by Layth, "to put forth" you will end up with a non sensible Quran verse

see "Put the wives forth" does not make any sense indeed, on the other hand they keep blaming the claear meniang of the sunni and shaia which is non admissable argumemnt that only incline a case of desperation, it is not like everything the sunni said is wrong, indeed many things the sunni said is right and I pray to Allah that you donlt get dragged into that sunni mockery, if you read Arabic here is what many Arabic speakers said regarding the word "Idrabuhunna", I choose to follow their understanding because indeed it is what i found can only fit in the verse, so here it is in Arabic and if you don't read Arabic please let me know so i translate it to you

{ } , , . . 7435 - , , , , { } . * - , , , , , . 7436 - , , , , . 7437 - , , , , , , { } . 7438 - , , , , { } , , , , , . 7439 - , , , { } . 7440 - , , { } . 7441 - , , , { } , ; . 7442 - , , , , , , . * - , , , , . 7443 - , , , , , , " " . 7444 - , , , " , " . 7445 - , , , , { } . 7446 - , , , , . 7447 - , , , { } , . 7448 - , , , , , . 7449 - , , , , { } . * - , , , , , , , .

Salam sister and I wish you all the b est in understanding this very easy to understand Quran verse

phoenix1

Maybe my logic is faulty due to what society has told me is right and wrong.

BOOST, your LOGIC cannot be faulty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
maybe you are not thinkng clearly because of the influence society has on you. But don't ignore logic because it can be "faulty."
The answers lie in verification. If you verify that beating your wife doesn't do any good, then you shouldn't do it.
I know that beating others doesn't solve anything, and that's why, regardless of what the quran says, I will not beat my wife.

Layth

Dear Ahmed,

Put forth is the base meaning of darab...You may think this makes no sence based on having a preconcieved notion of the word, but that doesn`t change the facts we have to deal with.

I have refered to the Sunnis and the Shia because they are guilty of creating most of the distortions we are dealing with today by their one verse interpretations or by their quoting out of context or by their linking the Quran with their baggage of external falsehoods.

The Quran is to be read in tarteel (placing things of similarity together) - see 734.

The reference in your post is an example of this as they (the Sunnis) fail to touch on the subject being mentioned anywhere else in the Quran and therefore mislead those that follow their path.

savage_carrot

Good posts bro Layth.

Therefore, just to get this point out of the way, if God told us that a problematic wife was to be strung-up and shot, then I would be the first to support/promote such a law...

This, however, some would think too enthusiastic but I understand the reasoning of course

unknownuser

Peace all

I understand bro Ahmed's argument, but in order to have a sound belief I must refute the other side. And if it cannot be refuted then there must be some truth to it. So please understand that I will ask critical questions in order to gain knowledge.

Sis Samia you said

If this is considered a punishment,; how wouldn't God give the details of which part of the body to beat, with what and/or how many (beats)?

There are many topics in the quran that don't have such details. The salat for one has virtually no detail of how to do it. Does that mean that salat should have a different meaning?

Secondly where in the quraan do individulads apply / excute the punishment?

Is there an example of everything stated in the quran?

Although you had many more points, I'll move on for now for sake of brevity but hopefully the others can be raised later.

Bro Layth you said

When God tells us to do something, then it is not upto us to have a choice in the matter we hear & obey. Therefore, just to get this point out of the way, if God told us that a problematic wife was to be strung-up and shot, then I would be the first to support/promote such a law...

I'm happy to see we are both on the side of Submission over "what feels right". This to me gives your arguments more credibility in my opinion.

Now, back to the subject of nushooz. Nushooz means to rise / go above.

This can be seen clearly in 5811 where people are told to Nushooz from the place of gathering/sitting.

I did not know this was the meaning of nushooz... This puts me back at square one. I understood from bro Ahmed that nishooz was some type of ill-conduct like doing drugs, or abusing children. I verified the verse you added and you are right about the meaning. On a side note, would you kindly add the link of the classical arabic dictionary bro Wakas uploaded a long time ago under the Links Section? I think it would be a good addition to the free-minds website and would help us all not to make misguided conclusions such as what i did. I'll ask bro Wakas what the address is again in the meantime.

This paints a new picture on what bro Ahmed was explaining. Now neshooz is not being attentive or keeping private matters private. This to me is bad but cannot justify hitting ... but again i may be biased by society so let's keep going.

Darab = to put forth (that is the original meaning of the word). The only reason it can sometimes mean hit/strike is because you are putting forth your hand when you strike someone. In such cases you will see that the Quran specifies that which is being hit 812, 850, 4727. Wherewas the verse is 434 does not specify any part being hit (the face, arms, legs, body, etc.) and therefore would fall back to the natural state of the word which is to put forth.

So let me make this perfectly clear in my mind. Does this mean that the word daraba when it means "to hit or strike" must refer to a specific body part? It cannot just refer to a person in general? Because the word in the quran is Adrabuhunna. This hunna would refer back to the wives. So i think that would be that which it refers back to, unless there is something in the grammar i'm missing.

To say Adrab 3anhunna would be wrong grammatically?

Bro Ahmed, I hope you don't decide to leave this thread, because I am confused and i need to sort out everything by hearing both sides. It's probably not just me either. As for the word nishooz, i think this is made clear now. Does this change any interpretation on your part?

Bro Phoenix,

Thanks for the vote of confidence but i can be very illogical at times
To me i submit to the God's Will and not my illogical thoughts that are dressed in "sound logic". So I'm verifying the quran and the different opinions to see which is truer to the verse. God-Willing I can be 100% confident in my belief of this verse soon.

unknownuser

Salam sister BOOST

Ok I will continue to reply to this thread untill you are satisfied with the outcome of your understanding, however I'm currently on holiday with my famil and my internert access is confined to hacking into some not very secure wireless lan, I just drive with the car around and see if I can get in, currently I'm sitting in the car with my son just to have a quick look on the threads I'm involvoed in in 3 boards, FM, FF, and FI

so please bear with me untill I go back home inshallah next Friday

on the other hand Layth argument is nothing new, it is the same as the foriegner argument who lack the Arabic language

I'm sure you know that many Arabic words have more than one meaning and the context alone is the one to decide on the meaning

at the end of the day, I found all those in favour of this flawd understanding failed to give us a sensible understanding to 434 without adding extra words to the words of Allah

when i come back inshallah I will put together a long comment for you

also I don't get what you mean that one side must refute the other?

hmmm I see that I refuted their flawed understanding for the verse and they didn't refute the common understanding of the verse

all they said that it is a sunni concept and that can't be admissable dear sister

please don't fall to that trap of the root thingy, it is a joke to use the root childish method to understand the Quran

there was no such thing called roots when the Quran was revealed

Talk to you soon

Take care and happy new year